Endless Tests - No Answers

[Shazanne]

Some of you will be familiar with me at this stage as I have posted a number of times about my dog Millie (12+ y.o. spayed female terrier mix). She has undergone extensive testing at this point and I am no nearer to finding a diagnosis that would enable me to help her.
To date hypothyroidism (tested by Dr Dodds), Cushing's, Addison's, mange, ringworm, yeast and vasculitis (by biopsy) have all been ruled out and her results were normal in all tests.
But she continues to lose hair from her ears leaving blackening skin behind (it has worsened since the pictures I have attached were taken), has blackening of the skin on her abdomen like hundreds of flat black spots and has completely lost the hair on her elbows and ankles leaving only black roughened skin behind. She scratches occasionally but not excessively.
She continues to lick vigoursly at her groin/vulva area and its get so bad at times during the night that she can soak the bed down to the mattress with saliva - it is pitiful to see her doing this and be unable to help her I tried attached a picture of her vulva/groin during a licking episode but it exceeded the size limits. It happens during the day often also.
She also had extremely bad breath, which is most apparent when she barks rather than when she licks me. I often have to turn away from her when she barks up at me to ask to go outside to pee/poop and it breaks my heart to do this. The bad breath is all the time and not just after a licking episode.
She occasionally has a mucous around her stool, but not all the time. Her diet is Acana Light and Fit with a homemade topper of chicken/carrot/broccoli cooked in the crock pot with Campbells no salt broth. As a change I give her refridgerated Vital Freshpet beef/bison/blueberry chubbs/tubes for dinner, which she loves.
She is on a 1mg Metacam tablet daily for degenerative disc disease in her back and until very recently was on Clomicalm 20mg as a trial to see if it might calm her licking during the night - it had no effect whatsoever.
Her vet is totally baffled by her and appears to have run out of options on what to do or how to help. There is only one certified veterinary dermatologist in Calgary, where we live, and there is a 6 -8 month waiting list for an appointment
I am at my wits end at this point - I just want to help my dog. She is a rescue from a bad situation and I have had her for 8 years this month. We brought her (and my other dog) with us from Ireland when we moved to Canada four years ago - they both mean the world to us.
I would appreciate any advice, opinions, recommendations or even suggestions on where I could take her to get her some help.
I apologise for the very long post but I feel that the more information I give the more light it may shed on her situation.
Thank you all for reading this.

[rhynes]

Has a synthroid trial been done on the dog?

[Shazanne]

I have never heard that suggested. It sounds like something to do with the thyroid though? Is it a special blood test? I will check it out.
Why do you ask, as a matter of interest? Have you seen this before?

[rhynes]

Yeah, I've seen all this before. Stinky breath (leaky gut) and sausage like stool, you mention poop wrapped in mucous etc. alopecia, itchy (wasn't yeast), lethargy, weight gain...

Jagger had all this and more and we chased vets for 3 years, same old food trial after food trial. i'll never deal with strict western vets again, holistic only from now on as they tend to keep a more open mind with diet and treatments. I kept a list of all symptoms, and they started to fit with hypothyroidism or some adrenal disease. When he started getting aggressive, I knew. A friend is hypothyroid, she gave me a bottle of 75 mcg synthroid that she couldn't use, and I dosed him myself - vets didn't know. Am I recommending this? No. But a short trial won't hurt the dog and it may trigger something else. There is a secondary hypothyroid condition, the thyroid is functioning, but the endocrine system isn't using it properly. Hypothyroid "condition" isn't that easy to diagnose, sometimes it takes a leap of faith.

He was a brand new dog within 2 days. Took him to a new holistic vet who practices all spectrums of vet medicine, she agreed that he should stay on the trial for a few months to stabilize him. Then do all the adrenal testing. Didn't know if he was hypo - but it was a good start. Here's the issue, we've become a pro spay/neuter society and the only reason for it is people being irresponsible. Cut the nuts off a dog before they go through puberty, you're removing the testosterone needed, it's a very important hormone. Common sense dictates the endocrine system will be out of whack - now throw a lifetime of carbs and sugars into the diet...

Jagger was also raw fed. If you chase allergy (rare in dogs) or chronic intolerance (more likely), this is the fastest method to rule them out.

I say was, I had to remove the gf from my life, and I'm no longer allowed to see the dog. So I don't know his status, and it worries me.

[Shazanne]

What part of Canada are you in?? Is that holistic vet anywhere within reasonable driving distance of Calgary? The reviews on the holistic vets in Calgary that I am seeing online are not very encouraging - although I know these reviews can be unreliable.
I am very interested in the leaky gut possibility as Millie has had a couple of bouts of pancreatitis in her lifetime - not serious or alarming - but they happened.
I am a huge believer in diet addressing most health issues, but I am so overwhelmed at this point that I don't know where to start with her. She liked raw when I tried her on it a couple of years ago - but didn't tolerate it very well long term. She hates plain kibble (which is not a bad thing) which is why I home cook for her and mix this with kibble to try to keep it as balanced as possible, although I realise she may not be getting a correct balance by doing this.
I am so sorry to hear that you have lost contact with your dog - its so sad when this happens and children and animals inadvertently suffer as a result.

[rhynes]

I'm in Edmonton. I'll send a PM shortly.

The mucus wrapping the stool could be an indication of inflammation in the bowel, the bowel will create additional mucus to protect itself. I believe it's slippery elm thats one of the holistic treatments.

Sounds like you're dealing with a whole list of symptoms, hard to narrow down.


What raw diet did you have the dog on? Been feeding prey model raw for the last 5 years now, I don't do commercially prepared. All his food comes from the grocery store. The diet starts with raw chicken only, then you move to say pork, then to beef. Then you can start feeding organs which are rich. Alot of commercial foods contain organs, and many are too rich to start a dog on.

[MaxaLisa]

I'm guessing you guys have been pm'ing, hope that things are improving.

I would make that derm appt, in case you're still sinking around with this then, since you can always cancel it, and I would definitely do a thyroid trial, I think that's really important.

You night try daily baths for a week and see if it makes a difference. I had all sorts of special shampoos and stilll found this one to be the best:
https://www.chewy.com/vets-best-hot-...-dogs/dp/45180 When my girl had that black it was a resistant staph infection, luckily she responded to clindamycin, as I don't like using the cephalosporins.

I also treated for thyroid. Your vet needs to step up on this.

[Shazanne]

I started treating her myself as was making no progress whatsoever with the vet.
I introduced the Dr. Dobias Gut Sense and she's been on that for just over a week. Greenmin and Soulfood arrived in mail a couple of hours ago. Have also introduced fish oils on a daily basis as well.
Have started weekly bathing routine too. I 'soak' her in coconut oil with a few drops of lavender and lemon essential oil for 1 - 2 hours. I have made her a suit from a baby romper suit, which she wears will the oil is soaking in. Then a bathe her in natural coconut oil shampoo and her final rinse is with Apple Cider Vinegar on a ration of 25% to 75% warm water.
Her coat is shining but too soon to say if the hair loss and blackening will improve but she's certainly not as dry as she was.
Sent her bloods to Dr. Dobbs and her thyroid levels came back as normal - that made me wary of a thyroid trial at this point in time as I don't want to give her any unnecessary medication.
I am doing all I can think of at this point but not sure if I am doing the right things!
Would value any opinions for my precious girl.

[rhynes]

Oil soaks, are you thinking adenitis? We tried this, no effect. Just an unhappy dog.

Have you considered feeding raw? I've been feeding raw now for the last few years and will never feed kibble again. It could be a chronic intolerance you're dealing with. Raw feeding is the fastest way to figure it out.

Do you have a copy of the blood tests from Dodds? Any chance you can post it?

[Shazanne]

Hi Rhynes - good to hear from you.
Adenitis did crop up in my endless research, so the vet contacted the Prairie Diagnostics where the biopsies were carried out to check if there had been any indication that this could be the cause of her skin issues - they said there wasn't.
I am doing the regime I mentioned probably because I feel I have to do something (sounds like a lame reason I know) but it is vastly improving her coat overall, even if its not curing the problem as yet. There is some small evidence of fine regrowth on her outer ears, but no change in the blackening.

As regards feeing raw, it is not really an option for her. She has a tendency towards pancreatitis and does not tolerate raw very well. So I do the next best thing by cooking for her (for both my dogs actually) and only lightly cook the meat. I use vitamins and minerals and ground egg shell to balance the nutrients.

I have tried to upload the results from Dr. Dodds but its apparently too large and states -
Dr Dodds Report.pdf:
Your file of 152.3 KB bytes exceeds the forum's limit of 109.8 KB for this filetype.
When I have more time later I will work on it to reduce it - would value some opinion on it.

[Shazanne]

I made several attempts to upload the results from Dr Dodds but the document consistently stays too large, despite me removing headers etc in an effort to reduce it.
If you wish to send me a PM with an e-mail address I will be very happy to send it on to you for your opinion.
Thanks!!

[rhynes]

Originally Posted by Shazanne

I made several attempts to upload the results from Dr Dodds but the document consistently stays too large, despite me removing headers etc in an effort to reduce it.
If you wish to send me a PM with an e-mail address I will be very happy to send it on to you for your opinion.
Thanks!!

PM incoming.

[rhynes]

Well, I'm not a vet, but that's a pretty good blood test result for your ageing dog. Everything is within normal range. That blood work doesn't explain the mucous in the stool, it's generally an infection or other.

I still wonder if the dog is suffering from chronic intolerance due to food. If you look at the ingredients in the Acana Heritage, that's alot of ingredients first of all, and whole chicken is the 3rd ingredient. Chicken meal being primary, could simply be the beaks and arseholes.
https://www.dyrecenter.dk/images/Aca...ormula_1-p.jpg

Would you be willing to try a raw diet for a month? The concept behind this is removing everything from the dogs diet - and your dog will be sugar, carb, wheat, etc free and is the fastest way to rule out allergy or intolerance. You'll need to start eliminating the possibles.

When all else fails, go with the bottom up approach.

[rhynes]

And seeing as you tried to post the results already, here they are for others to take a look at... I've removed personal information.

[Shazanne]

Thank you!

As regards the Acana, I eliminated that a month ago. Neither of my dogs are lovers of kibble. But at the time the blood for the above test were drawn she was eating a small amount of it as a temporary measure to balance the home cooked diet she was on. She can be a poor eater at times and at that particular stage I had just cooked a batch of food that was lacking in balance as I awaiting a delivery of vitamins and minerals. But as the Acana was in her system I thought it best to be 100% honest when sending the bloods.

I have given serious thought to a raw trial but am very wary of it with her. The last time I tried she ended up on IV fluids at the vets. Even a raw bone has given her a bout of pancreatitis. At the present time we are considering moving back to Ireland later in the year so I am even more cautious of causing any issues for her. With her current home cooked regime I will be able to continue with it if we move.

[rhynes]

I'm trying to read your previous threads, but it looks like you're discussing 2 different dogs. This sounds autoimmune, but from the blood test, it's not thyroid related.

How long has this been going on for?
What is her current diet? Different meats, veg etc.

Have you ever done up a complete list of symptoms on your dog? That's the one thing that helped get the ex's dog diagnosed. We ended up doing a daily diary, and kept to it. What we fed, any meds given, any added symptoms - no matter how minute. Bowel movements were recorded, frequency and what it looked/felt like etc. Changes in behaviours were important too. Without all this info, he likely would never have been diagnosed.

[Shazanne]

Yes - I certainly don't blame for thinking I have been discussing several dogs!! It started with suspected vasculitis, then yeast, then hypothyroidism, Cushing's, Addison's, biopsies - the tests, as I've said, seemed endless. She has been bounced around so much with all this that even I am confused at this point, to the point that I have even considered that there's nothing at all wrong with her and that I have an overactive imagination!!!!

But I certainly don't imagine the patchy hair loss, the blackening skin, the extensive black spotting on her underbelly, the leg trembling that has gotten worse in her back legs and now spread to her front legs and she sometimes stumbles on steps, the vigorous licking of her vulva, the very bad breath (despite pro and pre biotics), the mucous on her stool (although that's not present at the moment), the deep sleeping that is almost impossible to wake her from (possibly partly due to her hearing loss??) even when I gently shake her. Over the past two weeks she has a white discharge from her eyes in the morning - Tobradex is not proving effective in clearing it.

At the moment she eats a turkey with veg breakfast with a Dr Dobias Gut Sense capsule. For dinner she has beef with fruit/veg and Dr Dobias Soulfood and GreenMin supplements. She is eating well - probably better than she ever has in her entire life. For treats she gets a Royal Canin dental kibble, due to the enzyme in them to help fight tartar - she gets perhaps 3 a day. She gets one 1mg Metacam tablet every morning as she has an issue with two discs in her back. She gets fish oil midday for coat and joints. That's basically it as regards her diet.

As regards changes in behaviour - she has become a lot more placid and tolerant. She has always been a loving and cuddly dog but even trying to clip her nails made her react like we were trying to amputate her leg!! Now is has become much more laid back. Outside she continues to bark at every dog she sees and still loves her walks and can keep pace with my other dog who is 6 years old. I only use a harness on her due to her back issues - she is never off leash as her recall was always poor and now her hearing is bad.

I monitor both their poops daily (they oblige by always going in their own chosen spots!!) and the dog walker, who takes them out three days a week, always gives me a report and lets me know if anything is amiss.

I have had Millie checked in every possible way - even for things that I knew were a long shot. But everything is clear and I have backed away completely from subjecting her to any more veterinary testing. Other than the supplements I mentioned above, the only other thing I am doing is the coconut oil soak and the very dilute Apple Cider Vinegar rinse - she loves having the oil massaged into her skin!

I feel as though I have exhausted everything - possibly even gone overboard on many things. As I mentioned to you before I have found it difficult to find a reputable and recommended holistic vet where I live and I did not travel to where you suggested as it hasn't been possible to get there as yet.
I don't know of anything more I can do - but if I have neglected anything please feel free to let me know. This little girl is precious to me and I want her to be happy and healthy, but I also don't want her to endure any more testing unless it is warranted and likely to beneficial to her.
Thank you as always for your help and positive advice - I greatly appreciate it. You have been a huge support to me and I am very grateful for your input.

[rhynes]

Originally Posted by Shazanne

Yes - I certainly don't blame for thinking I have been discussing several dogs!! It started with suspected vasculitis, then yeast, then hypothyroidism, Cushing's, Addison's, biopsies - the tests, as I've said, seemed endless. She has been bounced around so much with all this that even I am confused at this point, to the point that I have even considered that there's nothing at all wrong with her and that I have an overactive imagination!!!!

But I certainly don't imagine the patchy hair loss, the blackening skin, the extensive black spotting on her underbelly, the leg trembling that has gotten worse in her back legs and now spread to her front legs and she sometimes stumbles on steps, the vigorous licking of her vulva, the very bad breath (despite pro and pre biotics), the mucous on her stool (although that's not present at the moment), the deep sleeping that is almost impossible to wake her from (possibly partly due to her hearing loss??) even when I gently shake her. Over the past two weeks she has a white discharge from her eyes in the morning - Tobradex is not proving effective in clearing it.

At the moment she eats a turkey with veg breakfast with a Dr Dobias Gut Sense capsule. For dinner she has beef with fruit/veg and Dr Dobias Soulfood and GreenMin supplements. She is eating well - probably better than she ever has in her entire life. For treats she gets a Royal Canin dental kibble, due to the enzyme in them to help fight tartar - she gets perhaps 3 a day. She gets one 1mg Metacam tablet every morning as she has an issue with two discs in her back. She gets fish oil midday for coat and joints. That's basically it as regards her diet.

As regards changes in behaviour - she has become a lot more placid and tolerant. She has always been a loving and cuddly dog but even trying to clip her nails made her react like we were trying to amputate her leg!! Now is has become much more laid back. Outside she continues to bark at every dog she sees and still loves her walks and can keep pace with my other dog who is 6 years old. I only use a harness on her due to her back issues - she is never off leash as her recall was always poor and now her hearing is bad.

I monitor both their poops daily (they oblige by always going in their own chosen spots!!) and the dog walker, who takes them out three days a week, always gives me a report and lets me know if anything is amiss.

I have had Millie checked in every possible way - even for things that I knew were a long shot. But everything is clear and I have backed away completely from subjecting her to any more veterinary testing. Other than the supplements I mentioned above, the only other thing I am doing is the coconut oil soak and the very dilute Apple Cider Vinegar rinse - she loves having the oil massaged into her skin!

I feel as though I have exhausted everything - possibly even gone overboard on many things. As I mentioned to you before I have found it difficult to find a reputable and recommended holistic vet where I live and I did not travel to where you suggested as it hasn't been possible to get there as yet.
I don't know of anything more I can do - but if I have neglected anything please feel free to let me know. This little girl is precious to me and I want her to be happy and healthy, but I also don't want her to endure any more testing unless it is warranted and likely to beneficial to her.
Thank you as always for your help and positive advice - I greatly appreciate it. You have been a huge support to me and I am very grateful for your input.

hate to say it, but lupus is a possibility.

[MaxaLisa]

Thanks for posting the bloodwork. It looks really good overall.

I wouldn't try raw, but I would try homecooked with a single protein like maybe pork and a single vegetable like steamed green beans or turnips. And nothing else to start with. Oh, and I would add some fresh ground flaxseed with it since that helps with some hormonal issues like alopecia X.

The high end platelets can be a sign of an inflammatory process or infection.

Although none of the blood counts are elevated, I am concerned about the percentage of neutrophils to lymphocytes. The neutrophils should top out at about 77% and the lymphocytes should bottom out at about 12%. The makeup is still within normal limits, but it's at the edges and with the high end platelets, I think this indicates something, just not sure what.

[MaxaLisa]

Interesting the low lymphocytes seem to occur sometimes with lupus. My dog has lupus (SLE) and she tends to have higher lymphocytes with low and neutrophils, but she is weird.

I am still not convinced it's not some kind of infection. I would not use any type of steroid in this dog, even in the eyes. For the eyes I would try some artificial tears with no preservatives, and might even try the vetricyn pink eye drops. I would be careful with essential oils on the skin too.

[MaxaLisa]

I should clarify, if it's an immune disorder, steroids may be needed, but that's a tough decision. It still sounds a lot like vasculitis :-/

ETA: I might look for some canine supplement that contains Pau d'arco and/or oregano oil for infection, something for inflammation (maybe a systemic enzyme), a hypoallergenic diet with flax. Bathing several times a week with medicated shampoo.

For the back I would consider things like acupuncture and/or chiropractic to see if that is a pure joint thing.

[Shazanne]

Originally Posted by MaxaLisa

Thanks for posting the bloodwork. It looks really good overall.

I wouldn't try raw, but I would try homecooked with a single protein like maybe pork and a single vegetable like steamed green beans or turnips. And nothing else to start with. Oh, and I would add some fresh ground flaxseed with it since that helps with some hormonal issues like alopecia X.

The high end platelets can be a sign of an inflammatory process or infection.

Although none of the blood counts are elevated, I am concerned about the percentage of neutrophils to lymphocytes. The neutrophils should top out at about 77% and the lymphocytes should bottom out at about 12%. The makeup is still within normal limits, but it's at the edges and with the high end platelets, I think this indicates something, just not sure what.

I have usually avoided pork as I thought the fat content may be too high for her with her tendency towards pancreatitis - but I have just done some quick research on it and it appears to be lower in fat than beef??? If that is the case I would certainly give it a try. And also add some green beans and flaxseed. Is that balanced though - or should I also add the Dr Dobias vitamins and minerals to it?
Despite the blood tests she has had with her own vet and Dr. Dodds, I have never been alerted to an issue with lymphocytes or neutrophils and I did not realise her readings were significant. Is it something I should be concerned about or just something I should monitor?

[Shazanne]

Originally Posted by MaxaLisa

Interesting the low lymphocytes seem to occur sometimes with lupus. My dog has lupus (SLE) and she tends to have higher lymphocytes with low and neutrophils, but she is weird.

I am still not convinced it's not some kind of infection. I would not use any type of steroid in this dog, even in the eyes. For the eyes I would try some artificial tears with no preservatives, and might even try the vetricyn pink eye drops. I would be careful with essential oils on the skin too.

What type of infection or where? On her skin or internally?
Where do I get artificial tears - in the pharmacy?
If I leave out the drops lavender and lemon essential oil, is the coconut oil treatment alone a good idea for her?
Sorry for all the questions but I am concerned that I have been doing all the wrong things!!
As regards the vasculitis, that was eliminated when her initial biopsies were done, despite my vet being convinced that she had it. The wart like growths and nodules that were removed from her ears never came back and new ones did not appear. Now she just has patchy hair loss on her outer ears (both of them) while the tips of her outer ears and the inner part of her ear flaps (pinnae) have a dry, flaky, scaly appearance. No amount of moisturising with coconut oil seems to help that but there is a slight hint of hair regrowth on her outer ears.

[MaxaLisa]

Hi, sorry I disappeared. I'm knee deep in work and parental care...

I saw in another thread that it seems like you are headed in the right direction, and i'm really glad to hear this.

I was thinking of your dog the other day. For some reason my dog is starting to grow longer fur, and fill in where it was sparse. I think she is also filling in where there was none, but i'm not sure yet. I'm also not sure why this is happening. One theory is that i've started giving her a vit D/K2 supplement that the vet recommended because her vit D levels were too low.

I had asked my dog's internal med vet about vit D levels probably a year ago, and he wasn't sure about the research in dogs, but my holistic vet and I decided to run the test recently and see what it showed.

It's not clear what is affecting my dog's hair growth, but the timing would be right, and some articles do suggest the link. I wouldn't do this without testing though, since we don,t want too much vit D, which is really bad.

http://vdilab.com/page.php?id=76
Vet went through here: http://rxvitamins.com/
http://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com...sk-for-cancer/

[Shazanne]

Hi MaxiLisa. Great to hear from you again and I am genuinely happy to hear that your dog is going well - you must be thrilled.
Yes, you are correct in saying that I had posted on a thread a couple of days ago that I have been to an integrative vet and one of her suggestion was to give my dog an unprocessed novel protein raw elimination diet.
I did as suggested, so full of hope. I transitioned as directed, fed as directed and thought I was finally on the right track. But my little dog became so sick after a couple of days She vomited excessively and had some very soft stinky bowel movements. I spent an entire night syringing fluids into her every 30 minutes to prevent dehydration.
At this point I feel defeated and worn down. I don't know what to do for the best. Vets advice is to resume her old diet for a number of days and then try raw again - but I'm not sure I can do that. She has never reacted well to raw food - this was my third attempt in approx. 4 years. The last time she ended up being hospitalized as she became dehydrated and had mild pancreatitis. I vowed then never to try again, but I did as I was advised to do.
She is recovering slowly - not her usual self and the tremors she has in her legs have become worse over last two days. She lay down to rest on her walk today - she has never ever done that before.
I don't know what to do or where to turn. I feel like both vets she has been seen by just throw out suggestions and my dog suffers as a result but we never get to the root of her issues.
I'm sorry if all this sounds negative and that I have given up. I will never ever give up on trying to do my best for her - but I just don't know what the best is or how to find it.

[MaxaLisa]

Oh gosh, I am so very sorry. I was so hopeful for you!

I have never been able to feed raw, and some vets will really pressure you to because everyone says what a miracle it is. Well, if your dog can't handle it, then it's a disaster. A lot of sick and older dogs can't handle it at all.

To me, the key is finding the right homeprepared diet, which has always meant cooked. But my girl defied that with her preferences.

Raw can aggravate pancreas issues, and a host of other things. It's also very cooling, and can cool and slow the digestive process, and can also increase bacteria in the system.

So, let's think this through. What protein were you trying raw with?

As a side note, this stuff helped my IBD dog a ton, and she loves it. I crinkly some with my fingers into a bowel, she refuses to eat it with water. https://www.chewy.com/k9-natural-lam...raw/dp/35438It night be worth a try to help heal the gut.

[MaxaLisa]

Let me add to the question. What meat were you trying raw, and what neat has been in the homecooked diet? What else has been in your homecooked diet?

[Shazanne]

The raw was Carnivora rabbit. I was also advised to add some veg/fruit (15%) so I used green beans, kale and blueberries, also cooked squash (5%). I also added a probiotic (Dr Dobias GutSense) and coconut oil - small amount with a view to increasing gradually.

In her home cooked food she had turkey or beef or chicken (she's not overly fond of chicken), broccoli, carrot, Dr. Dobias SoulFood and GreenMin supplements and, prior to using those I added ground egg-shell. She (and my other dog, also got a scrambled egg three times a week. I withdrew grains months ago in case they were causing any issues for her. Ironically, no matter what I ever changed or added her ears (where she has most hair loss) never got any better or any worse. She doesn't scratch - except when she wakes in the morning and then she stretches, scratches, stretches, scratches........!!!!

She enjoyed home cooked food - once I varied it a bit. Sometimes as a variation I used Vital FreshPet cooked food, which is refridgerated and comes in tubes/chubs. I used the Turkey or the Beef varieties - again she was not overly keen on the chicken. She also likes the fish variety, but only in smaller amounts.

I tried opening the link you gave me but for some reason it won't open. If you could give me the name of the product I will find it online.

[rhynes]

Some of these vets need a swift kick in the keister. Rabbit is not a meat you want to start a raw diet on, especially not with organs included. There's a reason why prey model raw starts out generally on chicken and bone only, because it's easy to digest. Starting out on rich food like rabbit - i'm not surprised you were dealing with diarrhea and dehydration - too much at one time. Organ meats are a big no no starting out.

Novel protein... Vets tend to claim that dogs are allergic ONLY to the meat protein in dog food (kibble), they simply can't wrap their head around the other ingredients causing the issues. To hell with all the other heavily processed ingredients in the dog food that the dog is likely intolerant to - or actually allergic to. Corn, soy, wheat etc.

Elimination diet... Is it possible to forget the "novel" aspect of the diet? At this point, you're not going to find a protein that is novel that your dog can eat safely raw. I would remove ALL of the veg and fruit - they are just sugar and carbs that your dog doesn't need, just chicken and bone - or turkey and bone - NO ORGANS!

My dog doesn't get fruit, doesn't get veggies, no carbs at all, no sugars as part of his diet. I'll give him a bit of ice cream or other treat occasionally but that's it. We'll run the off leash parks, after 2 or 3 hours I'm ready for a nap and he's just getting warmed up - no shortage of energy to burn.

Your dog will detox (for lack of a better word), it takes time to transfer to raw.

[MaxaLisa]

Originally Posted by Shazanne

The raw was Carnivora rabbit. I was also advised to add some veg/fruit (15%) so I used green beans, kale and blueberries, also cooked squash (5%). I also added a probiotic (Dr Dobias GutSense) and coconut oil - small amount with a view to increasing gradually.

In her home cooked food she had turkey or beef or chicken (she's not overly fond of chicken), broccoli, carrot, Dr. Dobias SoulFood and GreenMin supplements and, prior to using those I added ground egg-shell. She (and my other dog, also got a scrambled egg three times a week. I withdrew grains months ago in case they were causing any issues for her. Ironically, no matter what I ever changed or added her ears (where she has most hair loss) never got any better or any worse. She doesn't scratch - except when she wakes in the morning and then she stretches, scratches, stretches, scratches........!!!!

She enjoyed home cooked food - once I varied it a bit. Sometimes as a variation I used Vital FreshPet cooked food, which is refridgerated and comes in tubes/chubs. I used the Turkey or the Beef varieties - again she was not overly keen on the chicken. She also likes the fish variety, but only in smaller amounts.

I tried opening the link you gave me but for some reason it won't open. If you could give me the name of the product I will find it online.

The link was for dehydrated green tripe (I use the lamb version here), the brand is K9Natural, I think it's out of New Zealand. Tripe is very good for the gut.


I would scratch feeding raw off your list permanently. Considering her history, it does not sound like this is a good option for her. It is particularly dangerous for a dog that is prone to pancreatitis. I would talk with your holistic vet about doing a simple homecooked diet.

Before the raw trial, it sounds like the diet is all over the place, just in terms of variety. I am worried that the diet is not focused so that you can't tell what might be causing upset or problems, and that it is not balanced. This just seems to me that your dog is missing something since all the main tests (yeast, skin bacteria, mites, etc.) are coming up negative.

I'm thinking that maybe the fur on Millie's flank, near where the body meets the hind legs might be a little thin? yes? no?

She's also on the metacam, right? Can you tell if her back is more sore, or less sore than, say, three months ago?