Early Stage Kidney Failure in Cat

[chico2]

Growler,Any improvment is great news,right??
To me with Rocky,improved testresults is like winning the lottery
Tortitudeyou go sweet Duffy

[Love4himies]

That is great news, sounds like she is doing great.

I do remember reading somewhere that animals on raw diets do have different blood norms, but can't find the website right now.

[rainbow]

Originally Posted by Love4himies

I do remember reading somewhere that animals on raw diets do have different blood norms, but can't find the website right now.

I'm pretty sure I read that somewhere too....also it is supposed to be different with pets that are fed grain free kibble. If I can find the info again I will post it.


Glad that Duffy is doing better. Good luck at the homeopathic vet next week.

[growler~GateKeeper]

RC/Medical Dr told me they were sending the compensation chq to the homeopathic dr' office - can't mail to apt address. Got a call from the reg vet on Monday they have my chq - uh what happened to sending it to the homeopathic vet's office? Probably sent it to the reg vet cuz they sell RC/MC where as the H vet does not......oh well picked it up today.

I did ask the front staff @ reg vet to archive her file as transferred as I will be staying with the H as her primary care provider. Wrote a nice thank you card to her reg vet & said I wouldn't hesitate to call should I need her care in the future.

So just a quick mention on the website re raw fed lab results LuckyPenny did give me a different site http://www.homevet.com/petcare/docum...enutrition.pdf that basically mentions the same & I did re-find the original site I saw http://www.dogaware.com/misc.html you need to scroll way down to "Blood Test and Urinalysis References" then scroll down to "Effect of diet on test results "

So having mentioned that.......Duffy's recheck w/homeopath went really well, her *energy levels* surrounding her kidneys were great did not growl at him at all

She certainly growled alot at the intestine/colon areas (last visit was very minor growling closer in the stomach area) and I did mention the 2 incidences of constipation she had, the adding of both water & butternut squash babyfood to her food (After the 1st more severe incident I was giving her the butternut squash inconsistantly but after the 2nd not so bad incident she gets it twice a day) Dr says good for giving both those - what he does is cooks a fresh squash himself mashes it & puts it in the fridge then to give in the food. He liked the idea of freezing portions of the babyfood to add in when ready. Recommends to start adding flax seed & water mixture to the food as well - teaspoon of flax seed mix with enough hot water to make slimey but not too slimey keep in fridge & add small amounts to the food - see how her poops are with that, the squash & the PB8, play around a little with the amount of flax seed in the food because it will cause the poop to be a bit slimey itself but better than too hard. Anal gland expression today helped also.

He was impressed with the variety of proteins she gets: Chicken, Beef, Lamb, Elk, Rabbit (Lucky Girl he says ), Turkey, Salmon I also mentioned the one time Duck but I said I was not impressed with the pysillum husk in that & (coincidentally or not) the constipation that night, I mentioned that I suspected maybe too much bone in the chicken plus the pysillum husk (which nothing she gets now has it) might be factors which he agrees. So we'll see how she goes with the added flax seed will p/u tomorrow.

Discussed her lab results he felt were very good considering her age, the renal insufficiency *official term for this stage of the disease*, her previous HyperT and the fact that most cats with her numbers are in far far worse shape than she is.

He mentioned the Urine Specific Gravity - very minor drop not that big of a deal (we do ideally want it to rise)

The BUN increase of 3 points over 6 months is insignificant due to the various factors influencing this number (could also be dehydration etc this number alone does not a CRF diagnosis make esp if this & the creatinine levels are slow risers if both rise very fast then yes it's CRF like our first test)

Creatinine value increase of 11 points over 6 months he calls insignificant to the progression of the disease, he has considered this to be stabilization not progression (unlike the 30 point jump over the previous 6 months between testing) again there are far worse off cats with numbers near the same usually their BUN numbers are also significantly higher than Duffys'.

Did not touch on Calcium & Phosphorus as those numbers are still well within normal

I asked about the ref range for raw fed animals in relation to the rise in hematocrit, BUN & Serum Creatinine. His experience in his work has shown the slight rise in these values of raw fed as compared to kibble fed has not altered any diagnosis because the difference in ranges is so slight not being very much higher than or still within the normal range for kibble fed animals. He does of course make note of which animals in his practice are raw fed & there is the understanding that the hematocrit & BUN specifcially maybe be slightly higher only because they are eating actual meat not processed kibble. In short the numbers aren't going to change the opinion or diagnosis upon reading lab results there is not enough of a variation for that.

I did ask about Blood Pressure Monitor he has one but it is at the other clinic he works out of because it is used more in surgery procedure where the patient is not affected by stress (cuz they're anaesthetized ). He says the problem with monitoring blood pressure in clinic situtations is the numbers will always be higher than normal just because the cat is stressed from the travel & coming in to clinic. In the 20 years he has been in practice (both conventional & homeopathy) BP monitoring has not been a reliable enough resource to use it except in surgery situations - wasn't something I was set on just curious . He said if I want to have her checked the reg vet will have the machine & I can take her there.

Of course he also mentions often times if the owner focuses on & is concerned about something specific - that will happen to the animal....self fullfilling prophecy, if you will, also one of the thoughts behind homeopathy regarding stress, emotion & the surrounding environment playing a role in health condition. He told me I don't need to read anymore on CRF for atleast a year - to be very informed & aware is good but too much information & people start reading into signs that are not there or stress over things that probably will not happen anyways.

Prescribed 2 more doses of the initial homeopathic remedy she had in Dec - 1 for today & 1 in a month

Have a few things to consider if the dietary supplements don't alter her poops enough between now & next recheck which will be a phone consult.

As for her bad tooth didn't really go into it as diet & poop were a more prominent discussion, he did look at one of her lower canines which I mentioned is quite sharp - it's chipped but is showing no reaction when probed plus in animals chipped teeth esp canines do not lead to cavities. The tooth with the reabsorptive lesion is not chipped. I will discuss this again with him @ the next recheck.

H vet loves how Duffy is very calm even in clinic (actually the calmest cat he has in practice), alert & aware of what she needs in terms of her health ie she comes to me for pilling no longer running away *she knows it's helping her feel better*, she asks for the zoom groom alot (of course why wouldn't she - free massages ), did not fight me when giving her the herbal remedy.

He also says I radiates positive energy he sees in very few people and I am more open than most - spiritually & emotionally, that I am very in tune with Duffy. I think the atmosphere of his clinic helps his reading of that too, it's not sterile, it's comfortable, calm not stressed like many reg clinics, the clinic itself has a wonderful atmosphere.

[chico2]

Not beeing familiar with test-results numbers etcDuffys results were pretty good,right>
Your homeopathic vet seems wonderful
Not meaning to butt in on Duffys post,but if butternut squash is good for constipation,how can it help Rockys runny poop??

[Love4himies]

Sounds like you have a wonderful vet, growler. What a good kitty, Duffy, you are making your mom proud.

[sugarcatmom]

Originally Posted by growler

Have a few things to consider if the dietary supplements don't alter her poops enough between now & next recheck which will be a phone consult.

Have you tried giving Duffy a few drops of inner-leaf aloe vera juice (Lily of the Desert is a good one)? This can sometimes help improve motility.

Originally Posted by growler

plus in animals chipped teeth esp canines do not lead to cavities.

Not sure I agree with this, I think it depends on the nature of the chip. Aztec had a chipped canine that did eventually effect the tooth pulp to the point that it had exploded out the end of the root. It never appeared painful, even to touch, but by the time it got pulled it was in pretty bad shape.

Originally Posted by growler

I think the atmosphere of his clinic helps his reading of that too, it's not sterile, it's comfortable, calm not stressed like many reg clinics, the clinic itself has a wonderful atmosphere.

Sounds fabulous! If I didn't like my vet as much as I do, I'd totally check out a more holistic option. Problem is, I also love the fact that my vet is cats-only (and she has Feliway diffusers in every exam room!). There's a holistic vet very close to me that is pro-raw, but it's also a general practice.

Originally Posted by chico2

Not meaning to butt in on Duffys post,but if butternut squash is good for constipation,how can it help Rockys runny poop??

The soluble fiber of squash affects the water balance in the gut, so if there's too much water, as in the case of diarrhea, it absorbs it. If there isn't enough water, such as with constipation, it draws it into the intestines from elsewhere.

[chico2]

Thank's SCM,excuse my ignorance

[hazelrunpack]

A glowing report!! You're doing such a good job with Duffy, growler. She's very lucky to have you.

And I think I'm in love with your homeopathic vet! Does he do dogs? Long distance?

[growler~GateKeeper]

Originally Posted by chico2

Not beeing familiar with test-results numbers etcDuffys results were pretty good,right>
Your homeopathic vet seems wonderful
Not meaning to butt in on Duffys post,but if butternut squash is good for constipation,how can it help Rockys runny poop??

Yes Duffy's numbers were pretty good - the blood numbers did not go up very much better than a large jump like the last time. They are stable
He is wonderful
Like SCM says it regulates water volume in the gut if too much it will remove it if not enough it will add it - I call it the Magic Vegetable, Duffy gets some in her breakfast & dinner along with a teaspoon of water added, her poops have been alittle softer since having both on a consistant basis.

Originally Posted by sugarcatmom

Have you tried giving Duffy a few drops of inner-leaf aloe vera juice (Lily of the Desert is a good one)? This can sometimes help improve motility.

No I hadn't heard of using that, thanks for the tip. I already have the organic ground flax seed, mixed some in & she ate it no problem. We'll see how the flax seed works, the next steps would be intramuscular needle physio and hyper-sensitivity testing of the proteins she's getting to see if 1 in particular is causing discomfort. I would definately prefer to relax that energy area & find out if she has a problem with 1 protein then we could fix the issue.

Originally Posted by sugarcatmom

Not sure I agree with this, I think it depends on the nature of the chip. Aztec had a chipped canine that did eventually effect the tooth pulp to the point that it had exploded out the end of the root. It never appeared painful, even to touch, but by the time it got pulled it was in pretty bad shape.

Poor Aztec :sad: I suppose it is of course possible for any chipped tooth to lead to cavity, especially depending on the depth of the chip & at what angle too. In his experience/training the chips have never lead to cavities. Duffy's lower canine has a very small chip (around 1 mm) right @ the very tip that has a very slight angle down towards her inner mouth. H dr took the metal probe, they use for scaling, tapped on the end of all her canines & lightly scraped them too no reaction. Plus I often end up touching that tooth while pilling her twice a day also no reaction. Lets hope she has no issues with it The tooth she has a reabsorptive lesion showed a definative reaction to the probe.

Originally Posted by sugarcatmom

Sounds fabulous! If I didn't like my vet as much as I do, I'd totally check out a more holistic option. Problem is, I also love the fact that my vet is cats-only (and she has Feliway diffusers in every exam room!). There's a holistic vet very close to me that is pro-raw, but it's also a general practice.

It is fabulous! I love the clinic & the homeopathic approach, I don't think I could go back to conventional unless in emergency situtations

Originally Posted by hazelrunpack

A glowing report!! You're doing such a good job with Duffy, growler. She's very lucky to have you.

And I think I'm in love with your homeopathic vet! Does he do dogs? Long distance?

Yes he does dogs. He also does phone consults but I think he still prefers to see them for @ least the first visit. Pack up the Pack & come on over

The front office staff quite often have their dogs in the clinic, as well as H dr's dogs, it's very cute they wander around saying hi to everyone & playing with each other. But of course if your animal is not comfortable with the dogs near they will kept them behind the counter.

Duffy is so funny she has no reaction to the calm larger dogs coming over to take a peek but she does not like the one girls' bouncy little blonde cocker spaniel. Of course she grew up with all large dogs some hyper some calm & my sister has a hyper little chocolate cocker spaniel which Duffy doesn't like

[hazelrunpack]

If Duffy isn't fond of dogs, then perhaps the Pack is not the best thing to bring to visit. They were definitely wild today.

[rainbow]

YAY for Duffy and for your H vet ......hope she continues to get good results.

[growler~GateKeeper]

Originally Posted by hazelrunpack

If Duffy isn't fond of dogs, then perhaps the Pack is not the best thing to bring to visit. They were definitely wild today.

Big dogs that are she's okay with just not the little dogs

[3KittyMomma]

Happy Sunday to growler and other kitty/doggy Moms and Dads -

Growler - How is Duffy???[COLOR="Blue"]Could we have a progress report on how she is doing, tortitude and all ???Hope she is "in the pink" and relaxed and enjoying life.Because you are so connected to your kidlet, if she is doing well, so are you, which is very important !

I have a funny story to tell you, and other Kitty Moms and Dads:

My 3 Purry Furries don't all share the same territory. Susie (my ostensibly pretty sick kitty), lives in the living room, with the door closed. Wally and Sheena wander around the house. When Wally, particularly, is out on the deck, with the screen door closed, I let Susie wander around the house.

Yesterday, when I came home, I gave them all a little dish of fresh BBQ chicken, one of their very favourite things. For Wally and Sheena, on the kitchen floor, for Susie, "in her room". Wally and Sheena ate a little of theirs and then both went out onto the deck (door closed.) Susie ate all of hers, then I let her out to walk around the house while I was resting.

After a while, I heard a little hissing from the kitchen, but knew that Wally and Susie couldn't get at each other, so paid no attention. Later on, when I got up, Susie was curled up on her bed in her room, I let the Wally and Sheena in, and we carried on.

The kicker is: Susie had completely polished off the chicken snacks of the other two ! (hence the hissing...) (So much for her being sick...!)

So, I guess I've learned not to trust KKs where other KKs treats are concerned! Never a dull moment, right ?

Hope you and your Kidlet are doing really really well, serenely sailing through life. In holistic treatment, the serenity of the environment is of great importance, as you know...

Does Duffy need subcutaneous fluids? On Susie's thread I've posted a "helpful hints" primer, once folks have been trained to do this. I hope some people find it of assistance. Susie needs fluids sometimes twice a week, sometimes once a week-ish. It has been dramatically less since we stopped her pain med, and put in the homeopathic. hmmmmm

All the best, Happy Sunday, 3KM

[growler~GateKeeper]

Duffy is doing great, loving her raw food diet - though I'm sure she would prefer less Bison not too fond of the red meat unless cooked

As of yet she doesn't need subq fluids I'm hoping that can be held off for a while yet

The apartment is as calm & serene as can be made with other people on the other side of the walls/door No loud parties or screaming kids running around. Duffy likes to go out on the balcony & watch the world go by , she has lots of favorite spots for & comes for cuddles often.

Duffy's tortitude gets that grrl whatever she wants

As for the above posts re flax seed for motility it is working great, she hasn't had any problems with constipation since we started the flax seed so we'll see if she still needs a protein sensitivity test

Re: her dental cleaning/extractions - no issues there everything went great, no complications

She still demands! her Zoom Groom brushings helping to relieve the tension around the kidneys & she loves them, the brushing showed a great improvement @ her last appointment

We have an appointment for an exam, blood & urine work in early August so we'll know how her numbers are doing then.

[3KittyMomma]

Good on ya, growler ! You're doing a grrrreat job !

Comments/queries - How long has Miss Duffy been on raw food? Was it difficult to switch her from her previous food(s)? I tried my crew on it some years ago, due to advertised health benefits, etc, and they point blank refused to eat it, even snuck in with their usual food.

Flax seeds for motility - will ask about that instead of Heavy Duty Med for same, for Susie.

Re: Zoom Groom - a friend recommended I get one - Sheena loves it, Wally tolerates it, and Susie hates it. Go figure. I'm glad it's made a significant difference for Duffy, though.

If you get to needing sub-q fluids (hope not , but the old Boy Scout motto is good - Be Prepared), you have my "user's guide to this particular galaxy", either on Duffy's site or on Susie's site, can't remember which, for future reference.

Your Doc Dobias is very wise - "the numbers" only give part of the story - most of the story you can see in Duffy's appearance, behaviour and habits. In any case, hope the numbers are favourable, when you have that done.

Take care ! 3KM

[lm9012]

Growler:

As a fellow CRF sufferer parent I want to commend you on what a great job you are doing and the tireless research, time and energy you have put in to help Duffy.

My dog was diagnosed April of last year (around the huge pet food recall in the states, not the cause though). I was terrified..two vets told me to prepare for him to die, one yelled at me for not doing something sooner. I spent a $1000 before I even knew WHAT he had. Started with vet rx food, kidney values kept crawling up, moved to sub-q's and more wet rx food, numbers still crawling up, he became more lethargic..just sick..not himself..in November I found the yahoo K9Kidney boards and got to work.

Since November Albert has been on a home diet (mix of raw, cooked)..raw meats, eggs, squash, cream of wheat, butter, cream cheese. He drinks filtered water, gets sub-q fluids once a week, he's on supplements too (omega 3's, vit e & b, coQ10, glucosamine) and he has made a 180 degree turn on improvement! I FINALLY found a great vet (after 4 losers)..almost went holistic but tried one last time. Luckily he follows some holistic beliefs anyway...including treat the dog, not just the numbers. You couldn't tell Al had crf by looking at him..he's as active and silly as ever!

It is scary how little info some vets have, how counterproductive some of the rx foods are, I don't know what i'd done if it hadn't been for the internet! Scary that I paid all this money and in the end I had to figure it all out myself!!

I'm a huge believer that CRF can be managed, and that a healthy diet, supplements, even massages, can make a world of difference. btw...what is this 'Zoom Groom'??? I'd like to try it. I give Al 'wet heat therapy' with a heating pad.

Duffy is one lucky baby! I know how hard it can be to see your furkid deteriorate and no one is around to help you. How empowering once you do figure it out though right!? Makes you just want to

I know cats and dogs have different needs, Albert has flourished on a low phosphorous, high protein diet. His blood work (which we check every 3 months) looks better and better everytime we check. He gets no commercial treats, no bones, but I think he eats better than I do at times!!

More than once I have caught myself skipping lunch because I needed cash to pick up Albert's groceries!!

You have done an amazing job Growler...now all we can do is pass what we've learned to others so hopefully they don't need to go through the scariness in the beginning that we went through! I wish you and Duffy the best!!! I'm glad you haven't 'needed' sub-q's yet..but can I just say that they are so GOOD for crf patients!! they kickstart the kidneys and I find Albert is more vibrant after! Sometimes i give them twice a week. I buy the fluids in bulk..saves tons of money. I got over the squeamishness of the needles quickly when it came to saving his life. I truly feel it helps. It certainly can't hurt..worth a shot!

btw..have you tried giving Duffy spaghetti squash?? it's SUPER low in phosphorous..Albert gets it everyday, next lowest is butternut squash but can be hard to find off season..spaghetti squash i find year round. I stay away from pumpkin for the most part.

[growler~GateKeeper]

Originally Posted by 3KittyMomma

Good on ya, growler ! You're doing a grrrreat job !

Comments/queries - How long has Miss Duffy been on raw food? Was it difficult to switch her from her previous food(s)? I tried my crew on it some years ago, due to advertised health benefits, etc, and they point blank refused to eat it, even snuck in with their usual food.

Flax seeds for motility - will ask about that instead of Heavy Duty Med for same, for Susie.

Thanks Duffy's been on raw for about 8 months now we started around the end of November 2007. I had no problems at all for switching to raw, she had always gotten some human food treats - cooked meats, cheese so it was not completely foreign to her.

Ground flaxseed will help to coat the poop to make it easier to pass. She gets about 1/4 tsp organic butternut squash babyfood twice a day to help rebalance the water in the bowels, this helps soften the poop. I have also found a little extra organ meat also helps soften the poop - not too much otherwise its runny. Feelgood treats are lightly seared, the Lamb Liver is very popular with Duffy .

Originally Posted by 3KittyMomma

If you get to needing sub-q fluids (hope not , but the old Boy Scout motto is good - Be Prepared), you have my "user's guide to this particular galaxy", either on Duffy's site or on Susie's site, can't remember which, for future reference.

Your Doc Dobias is very wise - "the numbers" only give part of the story - most of the story you can see in Duffy's appearance, behaviour and habits. In any case, hope the numbers are favourable, when you have that done.

Take care ! 3KM

I did see that user guide Thank you I also have several CRF sites bookmarked.

Yes Dr. Dobias is great & Thanks for the good vibes on the numbers too.

[growler~GateKeeper]

Originally Posted by lm9012

Growler:

As a fellow CRF sufferer parent I want to commend you on what a great job you are doing and the tireless research, time and energy you have put in to help Duffy.

My dog was diagnosed April of last year (around the huge pet food recall in the states, not the cause though). I was terrified..two vets told me to prepare for him to die, one yelled at me for not doing something sooner. I spent a $1000 before I even knew WHAT he had. Started with vet rx food, kidney values kept crawling up, moved to sub-q's and more wet rx food, numbers still crawling up, he became more lethargic..just sick..not himself..in November I found the yahoo K9Kidney boards and got to work.

Since November Albert has been on a home diet (mix of raw, cooked)..raw meats, eggs, squash, cream of wheat, butter, cream cheese. He drinks filtered water, gets sub-q fluids once a week, he's on supplements too (omega 3's, vit e & b, coQ10, glucosamine) and he has made a 180 degree turn on improvement! I FINALLY found a great vet (after 4 losers)..almost went holistic but tried one last time. Luckily he follows some holistic beliefs anyway...including treat the dog, not just the numbers. You couldn't tell Al had crf by looking at him..he's as active and silly as ever!

It is scary how little info some vets have, how counterproductive some of the rx foods are, I don't know what i'd done if it hadn't been for the internet! Scary that I paid all this money and in the end I had to figure it all out myself!!

I'm a huge believer that CRF can be managed, and that a healthy diet, supplements, even massages, can make a world of difference. btw...what is this 'Zoom Groom'??? I'd like to try it. I give Al 'wet heat therapy' with a heating pad.

Duffy is one lucky baby! I know how hard it can be to see your furkid deteriorate and no one is around to help you. How empowering once you do figure it out though right!? Makes you just want to

I know cats and dogs have different needs, Albert has flourished on a low phosphorous, high protein diet. His blood work (which we check every 3 months) looks better and better everytime we check. He gets no commercial treats, no bones, but I think he eats better than I do at times!!

More than once I have caught myself skipping lunch because I needed cash to pick up Albert's groceries!!

Thank you lm9012 I'm sorry to hear about Al .

Al & Duffy were affected the same time & started home cooked/raw respectively the same time. Duffy was affected by the Royal Canin food recall & she started raw in November.

It is very sad how some vets just don't put in enough effort to find treatments. I've been lucky though, the great conventional vet she was seeing referred me to a wonderful homeopath vet when I asked about non-traditional treatments & Duffy has been with homeopathy since - I won't go back to conventional unless in an ER situtation.

It is great to be able to find something that improves the condition of your baby & especially when the vet agrees & mentions they will recommend it to other clients.

The Zoom Groom page doesn't link directly so: Click on the link, goto "Products", "Dog", "Other", "Grooming"
Kong Zoom Groom is a massaging medium rubber brush it comes in a cat version & a dog version. It has worked great to relieve tension around her kidneys . Recommended by her vet & he was so impressed with how well she did using between the first & second appointments, he said she didn't need the recommended acupuncture.

Please tell me more about the "wet heat therapy" with the heating pad.

Yeah I know how the food situations goes, I buy her food before my own, & hers takes up more of my freezer than mine does

Originally Posted by lm9012

You have done an amazing job Growler...now all we can do is pass what we've learned to others so hopefully they don't need to go through the scariness in the beginning that we went through! I wish you and Duffy the best!!! I'm glad you haven't 'needed' sub-q's yet..but can I just say that they are so GOOD for crf patients!! they kickstart the kidneys and I find Albert is more vibrant after! Sometimes i give them twice a week. I buy the fluids in bulk..saves tons of money. I got over the squeamishness of the needles quickly when it came to saving his life. I truly feel it helps. It certainly can't hurt..worth a shot!

Thank you I try to educate where I can & support all. We'll see what her numbers look like after the next tests in early Aug & I'll decide w/my vet whether I want to start the subq as a precaution/early helper. Of course I did read something about starting too early was not healthy for the kidneys cuz it overworks them .

As for all my reading/research....my vet told me "You don't need to read another thing about CRF for a whole year"

Originally Posted by lm9012

btw..have you tried giving Duffy spaghetti squash?? it's SUPER low in phosphorous..Albert gets it everyday, next lowest is butternut squash but can be hard to find off season..spaghetti squash i find year round. I stay away from pumpkin for the most part.

I've never heard of spaghetti squash - I'll look that up Thanks! Right now she is getting the butternut squash from Heinz Organics Babyfood

[growler~GateKeeper]

An update after our vet visit on Wednesday.....Duffy is doing great, Dr says all her spinal points and her kidney points are really good - no signs of energy blockage . A very slight sensitivity in the bladder. He said if he did know that she had CRF energy-wise he wouldn't be able to tell. Dr also said she is one of the healthiest cats he sees. Took blood & urine samples for testing, results are in - the lab is using a new chemistry analyzer which has new reference ranges - very very minor rise in the BUN (higher is bad) but not unexpected, the creatinine is a puzzle though nearly a 100 point jump higher than 5 months ago . Albumin was 1 point higher than normal which is rarely seen unless dehydrated & was normal last test.

Dr called today to discuss the results, we will recheck the blood work in 2 weeks to see if there is progression then or if the numbers drop back to a more "acceptable" level - possible cause dehydration although she has been drinking well & Dr likes her water balance. Wondering about the levels toxins that caused this I've emailed RC about getting a copy of the toxicology report on the food they fork it over.

Her Creatine Phosphokinase (CK aka CPK) value was really good too right in the middle of normal- this sometimes will spike very high when animals are stressed by being held for blood draws at the vets. CK is often used as an indicator for damage to muscle, muscle breakdown, heart attack, acute renal failure {NOT CRF} but in most cases it rises only because of stress. You should see how calm she is at that clinic quite a visible difference from the conventional vets - not to say she freaked out there but definately wanted to leave asap, not so @ the homeopath ~ she's content to lay in the middle of the consult room just hanging out

All other numbers are great well within normal, most slightly lower values than last test - no biggie there, good actually. Phosphorus, calcium, potassium all middle of the range. Ca:Phos ratio not quite 2:1 but staying pretty close.

I asked what he thought about starting subq fluids, he said it is not necessary right now - her water balance is really good.

Dr checked her teeth & gums, no sensitivity or problems after the dental. I can start her on some beginner recreational raw meaty bones to help keep her teeth clean. Will pick some up on the weekend.

Was given instructions for a repeat of a remedy we have used before.

With the blood work retesting in 2 weeks we will be discussing further treatment options, increasing frequency possibly adding new ones.

Duffy's such a good grrl laying in front of the fan to keep cool not showing signs of anything wrong.

[rainbow]

Is it posssible with the new equipment they used that has different ranges that there could have been a false reading for the creatine? WOO HOO for the rest of the results though.

It's great to hear that she is so relaxed there as that makes alot of difference if a pet is at ease.

Good luck for the new test results.

[growler~GateKeeper]

Originally Posted by rainbow

Is it posssible with the new equipment they used that has different ranges that there could have been a false reading for the creatine?

I had thought that at first but, w/the exception of Creatinine, the actual values are the same or just a little off from the last test regardless of the slight reference range changing. And it's not all ref ranges that have been changed with the update alot are still the same or just a few points different, some with a higher difference.

When I spoke to the vet today he wanted to talk next week about re evaluating treatments, then I asked about re running the blood test cuz I was wondering about possible errors, but he said the tests are really very acurate. He said if I want to re test we'll do it in 2 weeks that gives some time to see if there are any changes & she doesn't have blood taken too soon after this test. So that's where we stand.

It's an amazing environment I feel more relaxed there too

[chico2]

Growler,that is great news for beautiful Duffy and her mom

[hazelrunpack]

Except for the creatinine readings, what a great checkup for Duffy!

I know that cratinine is supposed to indicate something about the kidneys, but do you know exactly what it's measuring (I mean as far as function...since I know it's measuring creatinine )?

[growler~GateKeeper]

Creatinine is a waste product formed by the breakdown of creatine, important for converting food into energy (metabolism). The creatinine is filtered out of the blood by the kidneys and then passed out of the body in urine.

Creatinine is produced at a steady rate and is affected very little by diet or normal physical activities. If the kidneys are damaged and cannot function normally, the amount of creatinine in the urine decreases while the amount of creatinine in the blood increases.

This is what is happening here there is far higher levels of creatinine in the blood than there should be. Especially since the BUN level is not increasing to the same extent - Blood Urea Nitrogen (a byproduct of the breakdown of protein) is affected by stress, dehydration, food, exercise, water levels, creatinine is not to any significant extent.

Creatinine is a natural by-product of muscles doing work in your body. It starts out as creatine phosphate, and it ends up as a waste product in your blood which is then eliminated in urine. This waste product can be easily measured in both blood and urine, and, because it is released at a steady rate by your skeletal muscles, it is an excellent indicator of kidney function. Unlike urea, which also measures kidney function to some extent, creatinine is only slightly affected by the meat proteins you eat. As a result, it is a more precise, more specific measure of your kidney function than urea is.

Creatinine is another waste product excreted through the kidneys. It is generally considered to be a more accurate measurement of underlying kidney function than BUN or urea because it is less affected by diet, stress and dehydration. In CRF cats, both BUN or urea and creatinine will be elevated to some degree depending upon the severity of the disease; but if BUN or urea levels are high yet creatinine is only a little elevated, it usually means that the cat is dehydrated, has gastro-intestinal bleeding, or is eating a high protein diet.

Because creatinine is a by-product of muscle, large, muscular male cats may naturally have high normal levels of creatinine.

Creatinine is the end product of phosphocreatine metabolism, which is important in muscle contractions. High levels indicate kidney failure or disease, dehydration, shock, certain toxin ingestions, poor circulation to the kidneys and urinary obstruction. Low levels indicate liver disease or starvation.

What it doesn't say is what is the reason for: BUN is slightly elevated, phosphorus, calcuim & potassium are normal, Urine specific gravity is good, no urine crystals and the creatinine is very high in comparision to BUN Obviously it is toxic ingestion caused CRF but is there a specific cause for the creatinine to jump like that within the last 5 months?

Waiting for a response to my inquiry about getting the toxicology report from RC. I don't know if it will lead to any help but

[lm9012]

Hi Growler! Glad to hear Duffy is doing well despite the resent Creatinine finds.

do you fast Duffy before the blood is drawn? I found that if Al is fasted, I get more accurate results. Sometimes the results would just be nutty and the vets always say not to worry about fasting..but if we should fast before we have bloodwork done...it just makes sense! eating a cookie right before can give you the results of a diabetic! so regardless of what the vets say, I always schedule the appointments for as early as possible in the morning and feed him around 10 pm the night before. I also don't give him any sub-q fluids a few days before..anything to not skew the results. So I'm glad you'll retake them. It's better just to make sure!

I only have my dog as a frame of reference...but this is what works for me. I'm glad Duffy doesn't need the sub q's yet. I wasn't aware that it could hurt if you start too early. Unfortunately, since Al's disease is chronic..by the time he was diagnosed (through routine bloodwork...he had no clinical signs of sickness) his numbers were fairly elevated..and kept crawling up. My vet would say 'this is normal, the disease is progressing, nothing you can do'..blah blah blah!! so we had to start the subq's fairly quickly.

Why is it then that since November Alberts numbers have DROPPED???? HA! we showed them! I know the disease isn't curable, and that eventually he will get sick, but I'm living day to day enjoying him and the numbers and his physical state don't lie. So I focus on that. Creatinine and BUN, and phosphorous have dropped. They are still not 'normal' but at least they are getting closer. He gets ZERO bones. Luckily Duffy's phos counts aren't high...so you don't need to worry about watching the phosphorous as much or having to use a binder.

Maybe consider fasting her for this next round just to see?

it is hard for me to read your results, since mine are tallied differently. We go by mg units here. Once creatinine reaches 3.0mg, the kidneys have lost 75% of their function, which is right where Al is right now. :sad: But I am very happy that things are being controlled for now and I know she will do just great!

All we can do is stay positive right?! How brave our babies are huh? I am in awe at what a good boy Al is, letting me poke him every weekend, sitting still for 30 minutes while he gets his fluids..he can be a brat about the pills sometimes, but we make it work! The fluids truly help though..just recently he got into Khloe's food and had bad diarrhea & was vomiting..A good flush with the subq's..and he was like new! literally went from moping around to being all cheery and jumpy.

The wet heat therapy is simply a moist heat heating pad that I place on his body over the kidneys. It's supposed to relax the organs and help with tension and stress. I can't exactly quantify the results..he is doing very well and I believe it's a combination of everything and plain ol' luck. So I can't say, oh the heat is doing it! who knows! every bit helps though!

I had read about hydrotherapy helping dogs with CRF, basically running hot water down their bodies..I figured instead of wasting water, why not use the pad. Moist heat does get absorbed faster. My mom has chronic muscle pain and the moist heating pad is a godsend to her. He likes it! since it's more cuddle time with mommy! I am interested in that Zoom Groom...the hair is an issue for us anyway...so it would be a multipurpose tool!
I use the Furminator on him and Khloe right now, plus my boyfriend trims him up with doggie clippers every few weeks..it's barely controlled though. I've just accepted the hair!

about the spaghetti squash..it is a godsend! at least of me that I have to monitor every gram of phosphorous albert gets. If you aren't familiar with it, it's yellow and is shaped like a small watermelon. I just poke holes in it and microwave the thing..the skin is very tough to try to cut through to steam or boil it. It's extremely fibrous..so once it's soft enough..i can cut through it and just use a spoon or fork and scrape the insides and the come out like strings of spaghetti...hence the name! I always try to get the raw stuff...since I make a big 12 lb batch..it's just easier for me. That way I control all the ingredients.

Luckily, he really likes the recipe and I really don't change it except for the squash, he gets whatever is in season/on sale. He really doens't care that it doesn't change. Which is good for me. With prices going up on everything...it's easier to stick to the one recipe and it has become second nature now. LOL on the freezer being taken up by their food instead of ours! isn't that the truth!! I do sometimes wish I could pop open a can and just feed him...but he is worth the extra effort. It's hard on my hands to debone the chicken and most butchers only have one grinding machine and don't want to risk cross contamination with the chicken...so I sit there and chop it all up by hand..the ground beef can be a hassle sometimes too..since he needs the highest fat content possible. If you could only see the looks I get from the butchers when I'm knocking on their back door DEMANDING the 70/30 beef when I only see 80 and above!! They're like 'lady, you don't need any more fat..stick to the lower fat version!!'...then i say "it isn't for ME, it's for MY DOG!!"

Please give Duffy a big kiss for me and tell her that we are all very proud of her and to keep fighting! With her wonderful mom at her side she will be just fine.
Please keep us posted on her progress. We are all rooting for her!

[growler~GateKeeper]

Originally Posted by lm9012

Hi Growler! Glad to hear Duffy is doing well despite the resent Creatinine finds.

do you fast Duffy before the blood is drawn?

Duffy has never been fasted for test results, & they are always done first thing in the morning, she has breakfast about 4:30 am & previous tests were @ 8am at the conventional vets and now @ 10am with the homeopath.

Cats are not normally fasted for any reason other than pre-surgery. When she had dental surgery in May she was fasted except for water & she vomited clear foam right before going into the clinic :sad:.

Originally Posted by lm9012

I wasn't aware that it could hurt if you start too early.

I read it on 1 site, the theory is if the kidneys are still somewhat doing their job, adding extra fluid via subq is making them work even harder but then I've read accounts like yours where the fluids included given early are dropping the numbers.

Originally Posted by lm9012

Creatinine and BUN, and phosphorous have dropped. They are still not 'normal' but at least they are getting closer. He gets ZERO bones. Luckily Duffy's phos counts aren't high...so you don't need to worry about watching the phosphorous as much or having to use a binder.

Maybe consider fasting her for this next round just to see?

it is hard for me to read your results, since mine are tallied differently. We go by mg units here. Once creatinine reaches 3.0mg, the kidneys have lost 75% of their function, which is right where Al is right now. :sad: But I am very happy that things are being controlled for now and I know she will do just great!

Yes I'm very happy her phos, calcuim & potassium levels have stayed in the middle of normal range

Her results for the last test in US values are:
BUN 58.54 mg/dl
crea 3.64 mg/dl
phos 4.95 mg/dl
calcuim 10.16 mg/dl
potassium 4.5 mEq/l

Here is a great site for conversions: http://www.vin.com/scripts/labquest/converthtml.pl

I'm glad Al is so good about being poked all the time & loving the squash. I don't have a microwave so the baby food works well in that regard & Duffy started refusing to eat w/the butternut squash in her food so I keep it frozen & pill it w/the other supplements she gets.

I'll consider the heating pad hmmmm maybe even just for me

Originally Posted by lm9012

Please give Duffy a big kiss for me and tell her that we are all very proud of her and to keep fighting! With her wonderful mom at her side she will be just fine.
Please keep us posted on her progress. We are all rooting for her!

And you give Al a kiss from me, & the same sentiments to you. Keep me updated on how he's doing too.

[lm9012]

Originally Posted by growler

Duffy has never been fasted for test results, & they are always done first thing in the morning, she has breakfast about 4:30 am & previous tests were @ 8am at the conventional vets and now @ 10am with the homeopath.
I read it on 1 site, the theory is if the kidneys are still somewhat doing their job, adding extra fluid via subq is making them work even harder but then I've read accounts like yours where the fluids included given early are dropping the numbers.
Yes I'm very happy her phos, calcuim & potassium levels have stayed in the middle of normal range

Her results for the last test in US values are:
BUN 58.54 mg/dl
crea 3.64 mg/dl
phos 4.95 mg/dl
calcuim 10.16 mg/dl
potassium 4.5 mEq/l


And you give Al a kiss from me, & the same sentiments to you. Keep me updated on how he's doing too.

Growler: Thank you for the and the conversions! The values depend on so much..the range the lab is using, the type of animal, etc, the diet they are on...etc. When Albert was first diagnosed, his Crea was at 2.3 and BUN at 51 and two vets at the hospital told me he was dying! Go figure! I've read about animals with FOUR times the values being able to recuperate and have the numbers go back down! The numbers kept crawling up though, and my next vet had the total opposite attitude of 'this is normal progression, he's fine, everything is fine.." which wasn't good enough either! The rx food and fluids weren't enough and the values almost DOUBLED within a few months.

The yahoo K9Kidney boards saved us, I truly believe that. They lead me in the right direction to the right sites to get info and it wasn't until we upped fluids and switched to home food, and added the vitamins that the numbers went back down. At his last checkup his BUN went down over 20 points, phos went down too. Creatine went down to 3.

Have you ever heard of Potassium Chloride? My vet has a lot of experience with feline CRF, his school thesis was on it..and he wants to put Albert on a supplement of it. He says there's research done that shows a decrease in the progression of the disease by simply adding pottasium chloride.

I haven't had a chance to start him on it yet. But I'm considering it. He said that adding banana or pumpkin isn't enough, plus that would add to his phosphorous intake..which i monitor like a maniac! so..he suggested I use it in pill form.

Just wondering if you'd heard anything about that. I don't use any 'modern' medical techniqes on Al besides the fluids. And even that isn't a lot..he gets 600ccs a week. Other than that, it's natural vitamins/supplements and homemade food and treats. He's due for the next check up next month so I want to see these numbers first. If the numbers are elevated then I will consider it.

Another thing is that this vet has an inhouse dental facility and he would like to clean Albert's teeth...he has some dental disease already. When I adopted him 3 years ago, there was practically NO white on his teeth they were brown and gross!
The ASPCA we adopted him from was very kind and did a teeth cleaning a few months later for FREE..here a standard tooth cleaning can run up to $600!! So we were very grateful of course! and I brush his teeth and use all kinds of washes, etc...but the tartar is building up again, and his breath is a little rough...and I know there is a strong connection between kidney disease and peridontal disease. So he thinks that a teeth cleaning would prolong the disease even further! I'm worried about putting him under though!

[growler~GateKeeper]

lm9012 here is some info on Potassium Chloride it is mostly prescribed for low potassium levels, is sometimes used as a salt subsitute in order to increase water consumption. Most if not all of the vet kidney diets contain potassium chloride, as do many non-kidney-specific dog foods.

http://www.felinecrf.org/treatments.htm#low_potassium

Slow K This site is directed for humans but as you know many veterinary drugs are derived from human ones. Slightly conflicting warnings here, to be used w/caution for slightly lower than normal kidney function & advised not to be used with advanced kidney failure.

Depending on the dose it can increase the blood sodium (Na) level.

Canine Cancer Awareness Kidney Diet in the Homemade Cancer Diet potassium chloride is used as a salt subsitute.

I have something else for you I was so excited when I found this I don't know why I hadn't thought to do one myself Some of my lab results I have a paper copy and some were emailed to me via pdf or img files here is an Excel spreadsheet to keep a chronological file all in one place. The reference values here are in US numbers - just double check them against the lab your vet uses.

Chronological Lab Results in Excel Spreadsheet


As for dental disease, yes that can make a big difference with kidney disease & it can also lead to heart disease. Bacteria in the mouth, on & under the gums & on the teeth travels through the system into the blood (where it can affect the heart) & as you know the kidneys filter the waste from the blood so all that stuff ends up there. Kidney disease also can lead to ulcers in the mouth which would be made abit worse I'd imagine by tarter on the teeth.

Duffy (17 yrs old) had a full dental cleaning in May 2008 & did have a few teeth that had to be removed due to cavities, her eating improved after those painful teeth were removed. She has been cleared by her vet to start chicken necks to help with the cleaning & I brush her teeth a few times a week (which she doesn't like, but she likes the taste of the pet toothpaste ) I was very concerned about putting her under for the dental, it was done at a hospital my vet used to work from & they were fully aware of the CRF. She was on IV fluids the whole time & fully monitored, she was given homeopathic remedies for pain management after & was fully recovered showing no signs of having had surgery within 2 days.

[growler~GateKeeper]

So I got the results of the 2 week recheck back, we just did the biochemistry part of the blood test - so not the full geri panel & we skipped the urinalysis since we know her specific gravity is good.

There was a dose of the same homeopath remedy we've been using given right after her visit 2 weeks ago. Her results:

Her BUN/urea numbers have dropped we're down to 18.2 - still high but not as high as the last test (20.9)

The Creatinine is the number that dropped much more significantly we're down to 218 (last test was 322, the one 5 months before was 223.2) so close to the high end of normal {ref range 71-203 umol/L}

Albumin same as last test just 1 point above normal - I'm not concerned about it.

Her phos number dropped again as well that was always in the middle of normal but now it's closer to the low end of normal won't have to worry about that one at all

Spoke to the vet today he was very happy to be able to give me good results & instructed me to re dose her with the remedy tonight.

Will have another recheck w/blood work in 1 month.

The sad thing for me is my wonderful homeopath vet is leaving he wants to dedicate more time to research & finding treatments/cures & to educate the general public about the world & treatments of homeopathy. I know he will do great work on his new path . I will stay with the same clinic & see the other homeopath vet there.

Royal Canin/Medi-cal of course won't give me the toxicology report the Dr I've been emailing has offered to speak over the phone with me about it though now to find the time