New food again?

[rainbow]

I just had a thought. Email Go Natural (Michelle is really good about answering) and ask them about the calcium/phosphorus ratio in the new food they are going to launch. Tell them the amounts in EVO RM and your concerns. If their's is going to have high amounts and they agree with you maybe they'll have time to tweak it.

[mafiaprincess]

Well, over here the evo rm on its own seems to be doing something good.. ear scratching is down to a minimum, and she cleans her bum and crotch now but not as obsessively as before and it's only been a few days. Maybe it's a chicken intolerance to the NV..

[Prin]

Originally Posted by rainbow

I just had a thought. Email Go Natural (Michelle is really good about answering) and ask them about the calcium/phosphorus ratio in the new food they are going to launch. Tell them the amounts in EVO RM and your concerns. If their's is going to have high amounts and they agree with you maybe they'll have time to tweak it.

Maybe eh? I just am not too impressed with Go Natural's other foods really... Then again, the problem is too many grains, so maybe they'll fix that with a no grain food.

[Prin]

Originally Posted by mafiaprincess

Well, over here the evo rm on its own seems to be doing something good.. ear scratching is down to a minimum, and she cleans her bum and crotch now but not as obsessively as before and it's only been a few days. Maybe it's a chicken intolerance to the NV..

Yeah, my doggies aren't hungry all the time anymore.

[Prin]

Innova customer service on the phone was so unhelpful.
"Hi. I was wondering why the website says the Innova Large Breed formula has the "optimum" calcium and phosphorus balance and the Evo RM's calcium and phos are much much higher. Are the high levels really safe for dogs?"
"Um. The Innova and Evo are formulated differently- they're different foods- so the balance is different."
"yeah, but doesn't the higher level affect the kidneys and other organs?"
"No."
"It's just that I've heard horror stories about kidney failure and I want to be sure that it's safe for my dogs."
"Yes it is. How old is your puppy?"
"I don't have a puppy. Both of my dogs are 5."
"Oh, well, it's fine. They're formulated by nutritionists and veterinarians and we test them before putting them on the market."
"Are long term studies done? How long are the feeding trials? Six months?"
"No they're about two years."

And there wasn't much after that... Needless to say, I'm not reassured.

(it really bothered me that she thought I had puppies and still pushed the food- I KNOW this food isn't appropriate for growing dogs. )

[rainbow]

When I get some time this week I'll try emailing them. I'll tell them I'm currently feeding Innova regular and thinking of switching to EVO but have concerns about the calcium/phosphorous content.

[Scott_B]

Thats the problem with any long term studies. With a new product, you cant really expect to test it for 10-15 years before releasing it. A 2 year study likely on various ages of dogs is about as far as it gets with initial testing.

[technodoll]

prin, could boo do the Nature's Variety Wild Alaskan Salmon Meal & Brown Rice Medley? it has chicken liver flavor though... would that cause trouble?

Healthy, Natural Ingredients
Salmon Meal, Brown Rice, Oatmeal, Barley, Canola Oil, Pumpkinseeds, Flaxseed Meal, Montmorillonite Clay, Chicken Liver Flavor, Potassium Chloride, Vitamins (Choline Chloride, Vitamin E Supplement, Ascorbic Acid, Niacin Supplement, Biotin, D-Calcium Pantothenate, Vitamin A Acetate, Riboflavin Supplement, Thiamine Mononitrate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Ethylenediamine Dihydriodide, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Beta Carotene, Folic Acid), Sea Salt, Minerals (Zinc Proteinate, Iron Proteinate, Zinc Sulfate, Ferrous Sulfate, Manganese Proteinate, Copper Proteinate, Manganese Sulfate, Copper Sulfate, Sodium Selenite), Chicken Liver, Inulin, Flaxseed Oil, Dried Enterococcus Faecium Fermentation Product, Dried Lactobacillus Acidophilus Fermentation Product, Apples, Carrots, Peas, Chicken Eggs, Cottage Cheese, Freeze Dried Chicken, Freeze Dried Turkey, Freeze Dried Turkey Liver, Freeze Dried Turkey Hearts, Ground Chicken Bone, Butternut Squash, Broccoli, Lettuce, Spinach, Kelp, Honey, Apple Cider Vinegar, Blueberries, Parsley, Salmon Oil, Citric Acid, Mixed Tocopherols, Rosemary Extract, Alfalfa Sprouts, Olive Oil, Clove, Duck Eggs, Grapefruit Seed Extract, Persimmons, Pheasant Eggs, Quail Eggs, Sage

Guaranteed Analysis
Crude Protein (min) 26.0%
Crude Fat (min) 14.0%
Crude Fiber (max) 3.5%
Moisture (max) 10.0%

Also, I got some Raw Instinct samples and Dakotah went nuts for it... he doesn't like the Evo RM at all. sigh. I have a huge bag to go through... and i can't feed him too much kibble lately, it gives him horrendous, atrocious gas! i started added some digestive enzymes to his kibble meals and it helps though. it all started when i gave him the Merrick's dry... which he loves, of course

[Prin]

Originally Posted by Scott_B

Thats the problem with any long term studies. With a new product, you cant really expect to test it for 10-15 years before releasing it. A 2 year study likely on various ages of dogs is about as far as it gets with initial testing.

Yeah, I know. Usually they test for 6 months or so before putting a food on the market, so at least 2 years is a step forward. If they really wanted to be good about it, they would ask feeders to register (with some benefit) and survey them all every year about their experiences with the food.


I'm not sure about the chicken liver. I'm pretty sure he can't eat it but it's such a long process back and forth to find out. Like I'll give it to him a few days and then after about a week, he might throw up once. So I'll chalk it up to him eating something funny outside. And then after another week, he'll puke again. And then a couple days after that, he'll puke all night continuously and start the rabid diarrhea, and then it's too late. Even with antibiotics and anti-nausea drugs, he stays sensitive for months afterward. :sad:

Rainbow, that's a good angle. That way, they won't be encouraging you to move to their brand.

[Lissa]

If their calcium level is high enough to balance out the extra phosphorous I don't think its something to be overally worried about.
I think the ratio for dogs is that the calciumhosphorous ratio should be from 1:1 - 2:1.
I personally think 1.50% calcium is a good number to aim for and I do think less than 1% is too low (if I remember correctly, Innova large breed formula is only 0.90%) so that wouldn't be ideal for me either.

If its something you are really worried about and Boo doesn't do well on TO, why not just get some bloodwork done to check that the kidneys are still functioning and the BUN level's are normal (but be aware that most vets will "ignore" abnormalities within range until they are abnormally out of range so you need to be clear that you need precision LOL)

I think your concern is valid, especially because the ash content is so high as well - it all means extra work for the kidneys. But if Boo does well on EVO RM alone, I wouldn't worry about it. I think we need to be educated enough to make the best choices but I don't think we have the liberty of stressing over every tiny ingredient if our dog's are healthy (otherwise I don't think we'd be able to feed any kibble!)

[Lissa]

Why is there a tongue face in my post? It should NOT be there

[Prin]

Thanks Lissa.

I personally think 1.50% calcium is a good number to aim for and I do think less than 1% is too low (if I remember correctly, the large breed formula is only 0.90%)

I think large breeds need less calcium than smaller breeds, especially puppies. Calcium levels for large breed puppies should be around 0.8% if I'm remembering properly.

You're right about the ratio though- that's a relief!
http://www.purina.ca/dogs/nutrition.asp?article=18

[meb999]

Originally Posted by Lissa

Why is there a tongue face in my post? It should NOT be there

you probably hit the : button before your p (the p in front of phosphorous)

: and a p make a

[Lissa]

OOPS, wasn't sure what set that off!

I hope you find something that works for Boo!

[technodoll]

that is reassuring for all of us feeding a grainless kibble! thanks lissa!

[Prin]

Amen sista! I feel much better now. Lissa, you're in our food company when me and rainbow win the lottery (if you want to be).

[Lissa]

YAY!!!! I'm sure we wouldn't have trouble coming up with the bestest kibble ever

If I win the lottery I'll have to do a line of kibble (with you and Rainbow) and a line of raw with techno LOL.... Now to buy the winning ticket!

[technodoll]

fer sure! hey we can all be vested in both "lines" you know... nutrition is nutrition! lotto 6/49, be kind please...

[Prin]

Yeah, for sure we'd have a raw line.

I've been thinking about it and what if instead of grains, we dry and grind veggies, and to hold it all together, we use eggs... Don't eggs hold stuff together?

[technodoll]

yes! eggs hold stuff together very well! i'm thinking meatloaf... hmmm!

[Lissa]

Originally Posted by Prin

I've been thinking about it and what if instead of grains, we dry and grind veggies, and to hold it all together, we use eggs... Don't eggs hold stuff together?

Excellent idea...it would be amazing to have a zero grain formula without the risks of too much meat by compensating with nutritious and digestible veggies/fruits! In my experience (when eventing dog treat recipes) banana's, apple sauce and eggs all seem to help stick things together
Even though raw and homecooked are becoming more popular, I think convenience is still the biggest concern...If only there were to make a convenient food without too many preservatives or losing too much goodness in the heating process...

[Prin]

Exactly! If we could really feed raw in a bag, we'd be set.

[technodoll]

raw in a bag exists... it's just horrendously expensive and so are dehydrated diets! only solution not to break the bank is to make your own... but that defeats the convenience factor, eh? LOL!

crikey, we need to put our heads together now... magic formula... magic formula....

[Prin]

No, no, it wouldn't be that expensive because we'd do it right.

[technodoll]

must make friends with a nice farmer, yeah!

[Prin]

Or be the farmer...

[technodoll]

i couldn't do that part of the operation.... not a morning person, and i'd name all the beasties and could never send them off for slaughter. is it ok if i hide behind the books? i'm pretty good at package design, marketing, finances... LOL!

[Prin]

Yeah, we'd have a problem with the slaughtering... But we'd have the most accurate and complete accounting ever.

[technodoll]

and kick@ss customer service!!

[Prin]

oh yeah. Definitely. 24 hour customer service. And good wages and benefits for the factory workers, as well as a doggy daycare for employees' dogs (and maybe a kiddie one depending on demand ). And extensive food donations to approved rescues. And our ads will be:
"If that food is really the best for your dog, why are all the ingredients chemicals?"

oooo and "the veggies and meats ON the bag are actually IN the bag".