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Old August 21st, 2007, 08:27 AM
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Football players, violence, suffering and man

I am pleased that animal cruelty is coming to the forefront in the Vick case and that Vick is being punished for these atrocious crimes.

The thing that I'll NEVER EVER understand though, is just how many people get pleasure from watching animals fight or get slaughtered, from watching other beings in pain. Of course this recent public dogfighting case goes way way deeper than Vick on a myriad of levels.

2 dogs fighting, cockfighting, bullfighting, (let's not even get into man fighting man for sport from Roman gladiators to extreme boxing) it's so ingrained in many cultures. Speak to many people in bullfighting countries and they will tell you (in full conviction) that it is an ART. Cockfighting IS culture for many. Of course on this board and in growing communities of animal lovers we cringe, but I dare say we are the exceptions.

As a species it certainly seems like we enjoy watching suffering and getting excited by suffering on many levels such as watching dogfighting. On subtler levels, we love watching violence, killing things in video games and stopping to watch car crashes. A documentary or TV show on killers and their methods leaves us drooling for more. Obviously the VAST VAST majority of us in this forum abhor cruelty to animals but I wonder if some of us do exhibit or have an appetite for some of the subtler levels of violence/suffering mentioned above.

Not talking about our board now, it seems that humankind's appetite for this kind of thing is so pervasive that perhaps there is a genetic component to it. Man has been on this earth for a very short time...and notable appetites for violence/suffering aside from watching animals tear themselves apart include Gladiators, Salem witch trials, and public executions in the times of Marie Antoinette for example. There are many many more examples.

Do you think that we (as a general species) are biologically or genetically driven to enjoy these things ?

Just for the record, I mean no offense here. I'm just a curious person and I wonder what others think.

Thanks!
Marko
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Old August 21st, 2007, 08:57 AM
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wonderfully said.
And yes I do believe this has something to do with genetics. I must be defective as I gain no pleasure whatsoever in violence of any kind, it actually makes me sick to my stomach to even watch two men fight.

I sometimes wonder if it's a power thing or a control issue, of man at all costs to be on top, number one and putting others (people and animals) down, destroying, hurting, injuring, humiliating is all part of mans struggle to be and stay on top.

It's very sad really, and also astonishing that some can be so callous while others so compassionate. It's as if there are two different "breeds" of people, or maybe we all evolve at a different rate.
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Old August 21st, 2007, 09:09 AM
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I think it is one of the many flaws we humans have, the enjoyment of some to watch other beings in pain.

I don't like to watch boxing or any of those kind of sports, but I can't feel sorry for people involved in them because they go into it willingly and knowingly. They had one thing none of the animals subjected to that kind of thing has, which is a "choice".

Animals kill for food, or territory, they don't gain any pleasure in it. It is the sick and twisted human that forces these animals to do what they do by breeding them to do so. That to me is the lowest form of sickness. People like that deserve a particularly nasty place in hell.

I do confess, I watch those shows about serial killers, but out of curiosity. I want to know why a person would do something like that. I'll never understand it, but what in their diluted mind went wrong? Why are they like that? Did something in their childhood just set them off? Did they ever even have a conscience or feeling for anything?
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Old August 21st, 2007, 09:16 AM
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I sure wish I knew!

I love, love, love shows like CSI, NCIS, Criminal Minds, Law and Order, The Closer, Crossing Jordan and the different forensic shows on Court T.V. I can't stand all of the "reality t.v." or a majority of the "top" t.v. shows. I have never seen an episode of American Idol or Survivor.

I do not, in any way, understand the seeming human need to torture anything in the name of sport. Just this morning on the news I saw some over muscled football player defending M. Vick's actions in participating in dog fighting.

I am not buying the claim that dog fighting is a "cultural" thing. Participants are from every socio-economic group. The participants are of all skin colors and backgrounds. Some claim it is a southern "thing" yet Vick sure didn't grow up in the south - if I remember right, he is from New Jersey. Some claim it is an African American thing - but plenty of "good ole' Southern white boys participate.

I am also troubled by the seeming increase in the amount of human vs. human aggression. The amount of "Ultimate Fighting" shows that are on cable just blow my mind. But at least the participants are voluntary and willing. Unlike our animals.

I certainly hope that the judge in the Vick case imposes the maximum sentence. Just giving him a year or 18 months in prison does not send the proper message to the children who admire him. These are mostly African American boys in rough, poor neighborhoods who are exposed to these things all the time. If they see that killing a dog for "sport" will get you less time then stealing a car - are they going to get the message we want them to get? I hardly think so.
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Old August 21st, 2007, 09:26 AM
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Quote:
I am not buying the claim that dog fighting is a "cultural" thing. Participants are from every socio-economic group. The participants are of all skin colors and backgrounds. Some claim it is a southern "thing" yet Vick sure didn't grow up in the south - if I remember right, he is from New Jersey. Some claim it is an African American thing - but plenty of "good ole' Southern white boys participate.
Just so it's crystal, not for 1 millisecond did I mean culture in terms of colour, creed or salary. I meant the culture of violence which indeed bypasses colour, creed, or salary. That's why I suggested it's a genetics/biology thing.
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Old August 21st, 2007, 09:38 AM
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I have always believed that violence is mostly a learned behaviour, whether it's meant to be taught or not, a child who sees violence within their family is more likely to abuse or become abused as an adult.

There has also been a serious shift in television and movies, when I was a kid, there were only ever tasteful words said on the television, I grew up with Three's Company, and Gilligan's Island, The Smurfs, and The Muppet Show. All very appropriate, nothing like the violence on shows now.

I don't mind violence in movies, but I know I've been desensitized, I understand the sociology behind it, I've thought about these things beyond what they are showing as face value, I question things that I see on television or in movies, something that people rarely do anymore. I also watch t.v with my kids, and if there is something that I don't like on the show, I turn it to something else, then, and this is the important part, I write a letter to the television channel that we are watching and I tell them what I didn't like about it.

Violence is a learned behaviour, and so if an entire culture enjoys something it's more likely that they will advertise that event and that more people in that country will enjoy it as well. It's sort of like the popularity of soccer, most countries enjoy soccer (football), so why isnt' it as popular in America or Canada? Because we advertise more American football, baseball, and Hockey, but it doesn't mean that a lot of Canadians don't enjoy soccer, it just means that that isn't what people are selling on television here. Our society is bombarded by what advertisers want us to see, why, simple, because they are making tonnes of money from those companies, so in other countries where they have multiple soccer teams, such as Portugal, they sell soccer, here we have the nba the nfl, etc, and that's where the big bucks are so that's what they sell. So if a countries economy is somewhat supported by the tourism surrounding bull fighting, it's likely that they might advertise that.

Sorry, I'm rambling, I just tend to really question advertisers. In fact, I question everything, the government, companies, even agencies, everything, it's important, no one should ever simply accept "normal" without question.

Sorry, I'll go now, lol.
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Last edited by papillonmama; August 21st, 2007 at 09:42 AM.
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Old August 21st, 2007, 09:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marko View Post
Just so it's crystal, not for 1 millisecond did I mean culture in terms of colour, creed or salary. I meant the culture of violence which indeed bypasses colour, creed, or salary. That's why I suggested it's a genetics/biology thing.
Sorry. I don't know how much the Canadians get to hear on this issue - but it seems like every time I turn around some idiot on U.S. television is going on about it being a cultural thing.

BTW - Vick is from W. Virginia, not New Jersey. My mistake.

Having said that however, "pit bulls" are banned in Detroit. Not because they are considered viscious but because of the dog fighting.
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Old August 21st, 2007, 09:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marko View Post
Just so it's crystal, not for 1 millisecond did I mean culture in terms of colour, creed or salary. I meant the culture of violence which indeed bypasses colour, creed, or salary. That's why I suggested it's a genetics/biology thing.
Unh, uh. This transcends color; it's about how one treats those in your charge. Black, white, green, this is going to go the way it should: colorblind.
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Old August 21st, 2007, 10:07 AM
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Marko, i think thats a great line of thought there. no offense taken.

personally, in having two children, i dont believe we are BORN with that desire as a whole. i think there are people who ARE (as a minority) but since it is already a part of society and also such a POWER action it perpetuates itself with many people.

as children, look at those who surrounded you. there were those who felt the unusual cruelty was a terrible thing. i say unusual because learning what is cruel and knowing what is cruel are two different things. the unusual cruelty is not a part of your every day life. its cruel (to most decent people??) to smack your dog but if you are raised where that was common place in training your dog you are less likely to find that cruel or even think of it in terms of right or wrong. (this is how you also end up with so many BYBers or people who do not neuter their pets??) anyways, my point is this- in looking at children, they are either cruel or they are not cruel, before they ever really ahve the lifes experience to tell them what cruel is. i dont think a majority of them would ever hurt an animal knowingly. i think those that would are the minority. those are the Vics of life. because hurting things is so powerful, they are still so prevalent. someday, hopefully, peaceful natures will be more acceptable... and powerful if only because of a fear of punishment or guilt.

i dont know, as an adult you are faced with the things you took for granted at some point and you make a decision of simply- is what you were taught as a child right? do you feel they are wrong?? you figure it out and move on. M. Vick decided fighting dogs was ok.

i know thats not very clear.... wrangling a sick cat, a busy baby and making breakfast.... and several phone calls didnt let me just sit down and get all of this out (not that im very good at gettign ideas out of my head anyway!!) i hope you guys get the idea behind that.

-ashley
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Old August 21st, 2007, 10:17 AM
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i don tthink it has anythign to do with colour or race or wages or anythign liek that but i think it IS a cultural thing but on a small scale. someone having never been exposed to violence like that would react with repulsion to somethign liek that. my daughter, at 5yo, had the neighbor girl over for the afternoon just after we moved into this neighborhood. when it came time for the neighbor girl to go home she flung herself down on the ground, screamed, called her mother bad names and yelled some more and scratched and.... well imagine giving a cat a cold bath. thats what happened. Cailyn just looked at me with sheer horror that this girl was being so rude!! it took a week for the questions abotu that incident to stop!! for some reason the mother felt that was undesirable but a part of life. the daughter got her way.... my Cailyn thought it was the most traumatic thing she had seen by her tender age of 5yo. a violent reaction like that was NORMAL for them but horrifying to us.

*shrugs*

-ashley
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Old August 21st, 2007, 11:05 AM
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For some reason, I believe that some people lack empathy and compassion, whether it be from childhood experiences or genetically inherited. Something we will never know for sure unless we start taking babies away from parents at birth and putting them in controlled child rearing environments.

I really believe that we as a society are becoming more de-sensitized to violence by the movies we watch and the video games we allow our children to play. Children are learning that it is OK to use guns/knives etc. and it no longer phases them.

I also think as a society we are not expecting people to take responsibility for what they have done, but looking to blame somebody, whether it be the "bad parents", the bar tender who sold somebody one too many drinks and they drove. This allows people to give themselves permission to do something because they have an excuse as to why they did it.

Those who have more empathy are those like us who can feel animals pain and anguish and those who don't, simply can't feel for anything/anybody else but themselves and can't get any joy from violence or cruelty because we are concentrated on how the victim is feeling.

I will never understand the human race and those who want to inflict pain on somebody else. I can't even watch boxing on TV, it sickens me.

Your post is well said, Marko, I always enjoy and respect what you say.
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Old August 21st, 2007, 03:43 PM
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Very good food for thought here....

I never stopped to examine that for myself. And now to think of it, I really do enjoy watching movies and TV that are all about violence. I love a good action flick or a crime drama.... I never miss my CSI's or Dexter. Some of my favorite movies are very very violent (Domino, Smokin Aces and the like). Hm, never thought of myself as one prone to violence.

I guess I can say though that I do not like any real violence, no boxing fighting, or you know, the news. I just don't watch that stuff because I can't stomach it and it really upsets me.

And I refuse to watch anything where an animal is harmed (and truthfully would love to inflict pain and suffering on those who do harm to animals). I waited and waited a while back for that movie Running with Scissors to come out, finally rented it and watched only 10 minutes of it, because they kill a cat in it. I just turned it off and marched it back to the store. To tell you the truth I am still angry and upset about it, it was so unnecessary.

That's what seems funny to me, I can't stand anyone harming animals even in 'make-believe', but I have no problem with people hurting each other.... I guess my empathy just doesn't carry over to man.
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Old August 21st, 2007, 03:54 PM
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I think it appeals to our reptilian brains. By watching it happen, whether it's a movie about combat or a dog fight, we can experience that adrenalin rush of the fight-or-flight response but because we are watching and not doing, there is no potential harm to ourselves and so we can enjoy the adrenalin rush even more.

I'm sure to offend someone here but I'm saying it anyway... I've always felt that those who enjoy violence are less emotionally, intellectually and spiritually evolved.
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Old August 21st, 2007, 04:14 PM
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Thanks for the compliment Love4himies
I just love talking about things that make you go Hmmmm.

IMO - It's all up for debate as to why getting a thrill by watching violence happens, but it definitely happens to the majority of people on some level (even if it's just the TV level).

When it comes to animal cruelty, of course on our board we are all sensitive. I dare say many of us love our pets MORE than the majority of humans we know. We may well be fascinated by a TV drama where the killer tells of how he tortured, but if he/she tortured an animal, it's way worse for us because we are more sensitive to the plight of animals than humans. I for one would turn the channel immediately even if it were a show that I liked, like Law and Order or Criminal minds.

When it comes to doing bad things to animals...I truly think education is the way to go. Get kids fascinated by the beauty and miracle of nature through example and for sure they are much more likely to treat nature with respect. Neglect this type education and maybe roll the dice in some cases. You can bet your last doughnut that Vick received no such education.

Great conversation everyone!

Thanks!

Marko
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Old August 21st, 2007, 04:29 PM
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I am a great fan of Criminal Minds,Law and Order SUV and some other such shows,but more intrigued by the way they figure out who the killer is than with the actual violence.
I was brought up learning compassion for animals and to admire the beauty of nature,but I can also feel compassion for someone down on his/her luck.
However anything involving cruelty to animals will make me physically ill.
As for all the Vick's in this world,I believe they are the lowest human life-form,only an extreem coward would hurt a defenseless animal and I hope the screams of these animals will haunt them for the rest of there lives.
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