Raw update

[Scott_B]

First off, don't think about it so hard

Think a two week period. As long as you feed a variety of meats over that time, your fine.

For me, time is a concern in the am. So I feed my meaty meals then. Boneless beef. Beef heart. Beef tongue. Organ mix. Tripe. etc. Then for the evening meals, I know he takes longer to eat his bone meals, like a turkey 1/4, or a slab of lamb/pork ribs, beef tail. Or I may feed more boneless beef with a turkey neck, or a few raw eggs. just to add that bit of bone. Or I may feed whole mackerel or herring.

I don't feed these in any order or plan anything out. I just try to make sure he gets a variety over that two week period. Im at the point now where I just grab whatever. i know what i have in my freezer, usually a months worth, so i know that if i feed whats in my freezer, hes getting a great variety.

each meal doesnt have to be perfectly balanced. thats kibble talk

[x.l.r.8]

TD I think this week Jag is getting lucky and having all raw.

Turkey backs are at best 50% bone, as is with necks. The legs are a good medium, don't be scared and think your leaving something out, I buy pork shoulders so a few days they get mostly meat, I buy pork riblets when there on sale and add them in. Neither are to keen of organs (definition with-held ) so I add them in with there weekly leftovers in gravy. I do add omega 3's and the girl gets glucosamine but I have no data on the validity of either, the leftover bowl also see's sardines or herrings and raw eggs with shells thrown in (although they usually pick most of the shell out ) I like giving Ghicken legs as they are large enough to make them chew and work a bit, and they are also about the right bone/meat ratio I buy nice fat ones (again only when they are on sale) also chicken breast with the leg is also a nice meal. The balance can be obtainen over the week, or the month, or what ever is on sale
I do think the bone, although sharp, passed through and was jsut probably a bit denser then he's used to. His digestion will soon be up to the big stuff, I used to see bits of bone regularly at the beginning (like every other poop) but now if anything they are a little soft, but more importantly they are little, so they are easy to deal with whatever the consistancy.
It's hard not to panic but believe me, the alternitive is much worse Kraft dinners and peanut shells

[angeldogs]

TD.Jag has been on all raw since Sunday.still have a 1/4 container of kibble left.and it's a 40lbs container.ok jags first raw was steak and kibble.then it was turkey backs for 3 days. then pork ribs.back to turkey backs for 2 days.and then sturday his last day with kibble he had chicken legs with backs.all had lots of meat on bones.his raw was feed between 5&6 am.then 1cup kibble at 2pm and 2cups kibble around 9pm.for three cups a day.on saturday i bought a scale and found this web site raw diet info ranch.and found how to calculate everything.and when he started all raw on sunday.i weighed everything for each meal.so for starting % i chose 2.75% of body weight.which was 2.1 lbs.of food per day.and i used their percentages to figure everything out.i used oz

2.1lbsx60%(RMBs)=1.26lbs or 20.16oz.divided that by 2 = 10.08 oz per meal.

2.1lbsx35%(Muscle Meat)=0.735 or 11.76oz.divided by 2 =5.88 oz per meal.

And i weighed out everything seperately and by meal.so i could get a ruff idea as to how things worked out.so it's been including today will be 4days on raw only.i just don't understand how they got the numbers for the organs. for the post.

[Scott_B]

again, go back and read my post. There is no need to do all that measuring.

Feeding a chicken leg with a turkey back is feeding too much bone. Unless that back has an ungodly amount of meat on it, like having the breast attached, its too much bone.

Whats this website your going off of?

Edit. Ok, I found he site http://www.rawdogranch.com/rawdietbasics.htm

Some of the rmb they talk about are great, like the chicken 1/4s, whole rabbits, whole fish. But necks & backs should never be feed as is, without adding lots of meat.

all that measuring just seems to complicate things. Why not make it simpler?

[technodoll]

scott for some people it does help to weigh things in the beginning, to get an idea of what a "hunk of pork butt the size of two fists" weighs, and then as things progress it's easy to eyeball meal portions, you approx. what weighs how much

some dogs will eat everything you give them and pork up, or get runny poops from too much food. neither is good.

i personally DO weigh both dog's breakfasts on a scale, a scoop of ground chicken frames is denser/heavier than a scoop of ground chicken or ground beef so I like to know which dog is eating how much food (in pounds). if the dogs eat too much they get cannon butt. if they eat too little, they get skinny in a few days.

i guess i'm in the middle of the road, not a purist raw feeder (the kids do get yogurt, canned fish, cottage cheese, baked sweet potatoes, veggie & rice puree, slices of bread for snacks as well as milk bones, i sear their raw meaty bones... and half their diet is ground). i strive to achieve what is a good balance for them (they do well on about 25% bone, 50% meat and the rest is "other stuff" such as eggs, fish, other goodies). Some days they get mostly meat, other days more bone, but in the end it works out for them. every dog is different, and every owner has their way of doing things

but i'll admit, if my dogs DID enjoy eating whole big meaty pieces like rosco does, it would make my life alot easier!

[Scott_B]

Oh im not saying don't weigh things. Heck, I weigh out what Rosco eats for the day. What I am saying is you don't need to weigh out x amount of meat and y amount of organ and z amount of bone to achive some perfect ratio for each meal. Make it simple. Your feeding beef, and think, hmm, i'll toss a bit of liver in that. Perfect! No need to calculate based on weight what exact amount they need.

And yes of course there are exceptions with certain dogs. They cant handle certain meats or have allergies. So you work around that.

[x.l.r.8]

I'm just going to add this blindly. 2.75% seems a bit on the generous side, are you using the target weight, or the actual weight, also when we do doggy calculations we tend to round UP as well (well I do) and you could be giving a bit to much, unless Jag is super active in the winter. Riley is a bit under 2% or desired weight (a number I picked out of the air with a little questioning around the dog park of similar sized/shaped dogs) and rounded DOWN now, and missy is more like 2.5% or her weight as she has bad hips and I don't want her pushing them.
The larger dogs generally need less in terms of weight/% ratio.
Also what helped me was I could squeeze Rileys daily meat into a certain size ziplock bag, that saved me weighing everything all the time once I was happy this was the correct amount.
In the morning he gets half of the meat and the evening he gets the rest with something boney. However Missy has made is all a bit different, however she has roughly 2/3 of what Riley has so it's pretty easy to divide now, she also refuses a meal of two so she has it already weighed out for the next one as it just goes straight down again.
Wow TD, I don't realize how tight a line you were walking with your two. I think Riley would eat my socks if they were given to him (rather than him stealing them) and not have a complaint. I'd like to be middle of the road but I was exhausted at choosing kibble, this is about as far as i could go. To be reliable and realistic trying to do more would end up with us back on kibble.
It's very easy for feeding to become an obsession, and while I have seen the positive results in a very short time, I don't want everything to become a scientific experiment. (easy to say when Rileys doing well, not so easy for poeple like TD who have to be that much more carefull).

[technodoll]

yeah it sucks to have dogs that look at you like you're crazy when you hand them a nice juicy raw steak but we work around it... for us, there are no alternatives you know?

scott now i see what you mean now about weighing and it's bang-on. variety over time!

[angeldogs]

x.l.r.8.that 2.75 was just a starting point.Jag doesn't stop moving unless he is sleeping or laying down with a chew toy.if he sits for minute he's doing good.the joys of the weim.high energy dogs.but i love him just the way he is.

[angeldogs]

Do any of you feed pigs feet.

[Scott_B]

I've never come across them to feed them. But i know people that do. But they usually given as a treat more so then a meal, unless they have a lot of the leg still attached. The feet are mostly fat, bone & cartledge. Great exercise for chewing at though.

I do feed pork hocks though.

[x.l.r.8]

I look at pigs feet but there diesn't seem to be much in there except for fat. I also grab hocks when they are on sale and they look meaty, but my two wont touch them unless the skin is removed.
Basically I grab what will be the main part of there diet when it's cheap, add in what ever is on sale and work it from there, I keep meaning to pick up a box of the mix at the local meat packers thats heart/lung/trachea, tripe ect all mixed to a 30 lb block and sawn to 1lb chunks, but I don't want to sacrifice that much freezer space at the moment :sad: Once I get the new one i'm off to try out this stuff. It's worth looking around and having a ring around from the places on the list http://lepusreg.tripod.com/NRS.html and seeing what they have. I was surprised how helpful they were even when I mentioned dog food.

[Scott_B]

Thats too bad about the pork skin. Thats part of what I love about the hocks, how tough the skin in. Gives such a good chew workout.

[technodoll]

thick pork skin (like on hocks, feet, ears) give both my dogs the splats so i don't feed it anymore... too rich for them. they can't do lamb, either.

[Scott_B]

Thats too bad techno. Then again, Im sure the beanies don't mind

I'd love to get my hands on a whole pig head and let him have a go at that...oh he'd love that!

[angeldogs]

that's what i was thinking was more of a treat something to just chew on.other then his evo treats

[angeldogs]

so with feeding bone meats.say's i give him a turkey back in the am then in the pm just give boneless meats.so it would work out just 1 bone feeding instead of 2 meals.

[Scott_B]

Personally, I don't like feeding that much bone as a meal. If the back had a breast attached to it then yes. Remember 80% meat, 10-15% bone. Feeding a bone meal and a meat meal, your feeding almost 50/50. And feeding too much bone can cause constipation.

[barkley21]

I agree with Scott. I used to feed too much bone (a lot of backs and necks)and the results were pale chalky poops and oftentimes a bunch of slime which was obviously there to protect the lining of the colon. Since I've been sticking to the ratios Scott outlined above, everything has been smooth sailing

[angeldogs]

I picked up some ground beef.beef tonuge.some jumbo sardines,whole mackerel,pork roast,meaty turkey drums and pork riblets.so say ribs or turkey backs i was also going to add some muscle meat.then meal 2 just some muscle meat,egg,fish once a week to the second meal.thanks for the help everbody.i will get it yet.i only get about 4hrs sleep lately and it's slowly starting to sink in.i'm going with your%.but how come i'm reading on some raw sites 60% raw meaty bones and 35% muscle meat.it makes for a confusing time.

[angeldogs]

that tonge was pork.2 in a package.he wanted them.the sardines are a product of portugal.at least i have a variety of food.

[Scott_B]

Originally Posted by angeldogs

I picked up some ground beef.beef tonuge.some jumbo sardines,whole mackerel,pork roast,meaty turkey drums and pork riblets.so say ribs or turkey backs i was also going to add some muscle meat.then meal 2 just some muscle meat,egg,fish once a week to the second meal.thanks for the help everbody.i will get it yet.i only get about 4hrs sleep lately and it's slowly starting to sink in.i'm going with your%.but how come i'm reading on some raw sites 60% raw meaty bones and 35% muscle meat.it makes for a confusing time.

Its because of the whole Barf thing. Dr. Billinghurst started a diet called Barf (Bones And Raw Food or Biologically Appropriate Raw Food). Many raw feeders start out on this diet. So there are still quite a few websites promoting it. His diet really pushes bones. As well, he suggests supplements & veggies.

Now however many people are moving away from this diet. They simply call it raw feeding or a prey model raw feeding. This diet looks at wolves in the wild and what they do in nature. Wolves do not hunt lettuce, or broccoli. They don't eat the stomach contents. They don't supplement themselves. And no animals are 60% bone. Meat is main ingredient. Of course bone should be included in this diet, just not at the amounts Billinghurst suggests. 80% meat, 10-15% bone & 5-10% organs.

[angeldogs]

So is the fish i picked up ok for him to eat.and do they need to have bone everyday.or just a couple of times a week.if so i have lots of rmbs to do and will just have to pickup just meats. is pork tongue also ok.to feed.

[Scott_B]

Yeah, whole fish is great. Mine get whole mackerel or Herring a few times a week. If they're not gutted then they contain organs too, which is great.

Pork tongue should be fine I feed beef tongue.

They don't "Need" bone every day, and for my pup, some days he doesn't get any. But he usually does. Like today, he had a bit of boneless beef for breakfast and is getting organ blend for supper. (organ blend for me is beef heart, liver & kidney)

Plus all of my meaty bones are VERY meaty.

So yeah, just make it simple on yourself. For me, its a meat meal for breakfast, and i feed my bone meals, lamb ribs, beef tail, Tripe, pork hocks, for supper. As long as your getting some bone into their diet, your fine.

Now I'm starting to move towards once a day feeding. I like giving larger whole pieces that my boy can really work on. And I find feeding twice a day, the portions are smaller and not as challenging. So in this case, some days he'll get just meat, others VERY meaty bones. Some days the organ blend. But as long as I feed a variety over time, its fine.

And watch your pup. If his stools are chalky white and crumble as they come out, thats too much bone. Add more meat to the diet. Dark stools are usually from organs. Most of my guy's are a tan color that turn white and crumble after a few days. If you find they're always a bit loose, then add more bone. You figure out what works for your pup, but don't stress out trying to get the perfect poo.

[technodoll]

i'll also add that every dog had different needs, and digests things their own way... for ex my girl can do boneless meals and still has ok poop, but my boy needs bone to firm things up or he gets really wet sloppy poop. when i grind up cases of meaty chicken frames, i get a dark pink mush that looks like ground beef, it's mostly bone but don't forget connective tissue, cartilage, marrow, and some meat in there. i never feed that alone though, always with boneless meat or fish, often eggs. i find that feeding them a BIT of veggies quiets my mind (variety in vitamins, even if in nature wild dogs wouldn't bake themselves a sweet potato! LOL). so in reality i am feeding about 25% bone, sometimes a bit more or a bit less, and neither dog is ever constipated and their poops are always a nice brown color, not pale or crumbly which would indicate a bone overdose. BUT i know of dogs who eat 15% bone and it plugs them right up! sorry for the rambling, ha ha

[Scott_B]

Not rambling. Excellent points.

[angeldogs]

your not rambling TD.so whole sardnies for him in to nights dinner.i thought it was beef tongue.but then there would be a fight with the two uf us beef tonuge yummy. next time

[angeldogs]

Those percentages or they per meal or over a weeks time frame.

[Scott_B]

Either or. lol

If you served fish for example, whole fish with the organs, then you are feeding the whole percentages.

basically, you want to pretend your feeding an entire animal. Thats where the 80/15/5 come from. So if you feed your dog a whole chicken, and he only ate half. Well, over the next few days you continue feeding it all until its gone. There, you just covered the 80/15/5 over a few days. Understand?

We all don't have whole goats, lamb, or beef cattle laying around in our freezer ready to be eaten, so you feed a variety of meats, some meaty bones, and some organs when you can, and your fine. If you can feed whole prey, like whole fish, whole rabbit, mice, etc, then thats fine too.

I can kinda see what your getting at. And if I'm guessing correctly, your probably trying to calculate by weight over a two week period how much meat/organ/bone to feed

Don't even worry about it. Just feed a variety of meats & meaty bones and toss them a few organs a few times a week and your gravy My guy gets organs when i remember to give em. I'll root through the deep freeze and see a package and think, hmm, haven't feed organs in a while, and take em out. Simple as pie

[angeldogs]

started following the the precentages you and everybody else said.the fish i have are small the mackerel,and the big sardines.but much better going now.theeth look like i used crest white strips .sooo soft now and shiney.what part are you from in NS.wife is from around Turo area.