Go Back   Pet forum for dogs cats and humans - Pets.ca > Discussion Groups - mainly cats and dogs > On topic - Pet chat, opinions, feelings and rants

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old October 17th, 2006, 07:26 PM
LL1 LL1 is offline
Senior Contributor
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,326
Cesar Milan - interesting article

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...GPHL9D1N1.DTL&
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old October 17th, 2006, 08:04 PM
meb999's Avatar
meb999 meb999 is offline
Senior Contributor
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: montreal
Posts: 2,673
thanks for posting....I'll have to print it out for my bf (who thinks Ceasar is God's gift to dogs!!) --- it's a good thing I'M the one who does all the dog training!
__________________
Marie-Eve and Buster (5 year old-ish rescued Boxer)

Deep thought, by Jack Handey : "I think my new thing will be to try to be a real happy guy. I'll just walk around being real happy until some jerk says something stupid to me."
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old October 17th, 2006, 09:33 PM
ByronsMum's Avatar
ByronsMum ByronsMum is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Huntsville, Ontario
Posts: 312
It is true. I have watched Cesar putting a prong collar on a dog and using his signature "flip of the wrist"!! OUCH!! I mean, if you were a dog and you had this medieval torture device dug into your neck, wouldn't YOU stop doing whatever you were doing?! His methods really are basically about instilling fear into your dog. Yes, I agree with the fact that a dog needs to learn its place in the family hierarchy, but that does not mean that he/she needs to fear you!

However, I do agree with Cesar's premise that your dog will react to your body language, and that he/she will respond to whatever "energy" you send out. Therefore it is important to always send out positive energy when training your pet.

Hubby and I watched Ian Dunbar's Sirius Puppy Training video (borrowed it from the vet's office) and just by applying his methods to a few things, Byron has greatly improved with heeding commands. Mind you, he still has a ways to go to end up behaving like some of the "advanced class" dogs (some of whom didn't even NEED a verbal command, just a hand gesture! ) But still, while Cesar Millan may be entertaining to watch, I would be very wary of applying his methods to train any dog.

And that is my two cents...
__________________
"My goal in life is to become as wonderful as my dog thinks I am"

Last edited by ByronsMum; October 17th, 2006 at 09:35 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old October 17th, 2006, 09:34 PM
rainbow's Avatar
rainbow rainbow is offline
-
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Beautiful BC's Kootenay Country
Posts: 34,757
When I first read your title I thought "Oh no, not another person that thinks the Dog Whisperer is the greatest trainer ever." Thanks for posting and I agree 100% with the article.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old October 17th, 2006, 09:37 PM
Prin Prin is offline
Senior member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 28,492
Quote:
Originally Posted by rainbow
When I first read your title I thought "Oh no, not another person that thinks the Dog Whisperer is the greatest trainer ever." Thanks for posting and I agree 100% with the article.
hee hee me too! I was all, "Oh, no, not again."
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old October 18th, 2006, 02:16 AM
LM1313's Avatar
LM1313 LM1313 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Spokane, WA
Posts: 819
Our animal control people send out a newsletter to everyone with a dog/cat license and their main article last time was what a crappy trainer Cesar was and how people should ignore him and go to an obedience class instead.

Quote:
"Training," says Millan, "only teaches the dogs how to obey commands -- sit, roll over -- it does not have anything to do with dog psychology."

In his recent best-seller, "Cesar's Way," Millan writes that there are only two positions in a relationship, leader or follower. "I work with dogs all the time that are trained but not balanced."
I . . . don't understand what this means. If a dog is trained and obeying the commands, what's the problem?

Last edited by LM1313; October 18th, 2006 at 02:20 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old October 18th, 2006, 06:18 AM
coppperbelle's Avatar
coppperbelle coppperbelle is offline
Owned by goldens
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Montreal
Posts: 1,806
[QUOTE=ByronsMum][FONT="Book Antiqua"][SIZE="3"]It is true. I have watched Cesar putting a prong collar on a dog and using his signature "flip of the wrist"!! OUCH!! I mean, if you were a dog and you had this medieval torture device dug into your neck, wouldn't YOU stop doing whatever you were doing?! His methods really are basically about instilling fear into your dog. Yes, I agree with the fact that a dog needs to learn its place in the family hierarchy, but that does not mean that he/she needs to fear you!

I use those medieval torture devices on my dogs. If you have ever used one correctly you would know that they are not torture devices.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old October 18th, 2006, 06:20 AM
happycats's Avatar
happycats happycats is offline
Senior Contributor
Hexxagon Champion
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ontario
Posts: 4,665
Despite what many here think, I still believe Cesar has saved MANY dogs from being put down, gased, dumped, or life in a cage. His ways may not be the gentlest, but I believe his intentions are good.

LM1313, I think he means a dog has to respect you, if you want complete control. But if you train by, lets say maybe food motivation, your dog will not necessarily respect, and only does it for the food. Therefore you don't have control of your dog.
__________________
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

What is man without beasts? If all the beasts were gone, men would die from great loneliness of spirit. For whatever happens to the beasts, soon happens to man. All things are connected.

~~Chief Seattle (Duwamish tribe)~~
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old October 18th, 2006, 06:35 AM
ByronsMum's Avatar
ByronsMum ByronsMum is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Huntsville, Ontario
Posts: 312
Quote:
Originally Posted by coppperbelle
I use those medieval torture devices on my dogs. If you have ever used one correctly you would know that they are not torture devices.
Copperbelle, it was just my opinion...different strokes for different folks. Sorry if it offended.
__________________
"My goal in life is to become as wonderful as my dog thinks I am"
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old October 18th, 2006, 07:17 AM
coppperbelle's Avatar
coppperbelle coppperbelle is offline
Owned by goldens
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Montreal
Posts: 1,806
Cesar Milan

[QUOTE=happycats]Despite what many here think, I still believe Cesar has saved MANY dogs from being put down, gased, dumped, or life in a cage. His ways may not be the gentlest, but I believe his intentions are good.

I agree completely. Those that do not support Cesar's methods have not had experience with a "bad" dog IMO. When I say "bad" I don't mean a dog that is pooping on the living room couch, I mean a dog that has been aggressive or whose behavior is so bad that it will be put down or dumped in a shelter. While he may be instilling fear (I call it respect) he is changing these dogs lives so that they can live normal ones. I am in no way condoning abuse however if my dog needs to learn to walk behind me and go out the door after me I don't think there is any harm in that. I don't think my life should be controlled by what my dog wants. Sure there are other methods of training. One lady I heard from was told to ignore her dog for two weeks after he bit her. Yup, that dog is going to know why he is being ignored. In the meantime he will be so starved for attention he will start other behaviors like destroying things in the house, pooping and peeing. Guess where he will end up?
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old October 18th, 2006, 07:23 AM
coppperbelle's Avatar
coppperbelle coppperbelle is offline
Owned by goldens
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Montreal
Posts: 1,806
Cesar Milan

Quote:
Originally Posted by ByronsMum
Copperbelle, it was just my opinion...different strokes for different folks. Sorry if it offended.
I would never be offended by a comment such as you made. I have done my research and know what I am talking about. I also take classes where I have been instructed on the correct use of the collar.
For anyone who has trouble walking a dog please do not be discouraged by the way they look. If used correctly they can be a lifesaver when it is slippery outside or when another dog approaches you as you walk.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old October 18th, 2006, 07:42 AM
ByronsMum's Avatar
ByronsMum ByronsMum is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Huntsville, Ontario
Posts: 312
Quote:
Originally Posted by happycats
Despite what many here think, I still believe Cesar has saved MANY dogs from being put down, gased, dumped, or life in a cage. His ways may not be the gentlest, but I believe his intentions are good.
No doubt about that! In that sense, I think that he is letting viewers know that all dogs can be trained/rehabilitated to coexist peacefully with their families.
I do think, however, that too many people see the show as a “training video” and incorrectly use his methods. Example: Although I personally do not agree with it, Cesar uses the prong collar on occasion to correct some of the dogs. He is obviously trained in its use. People who are not, but see its effectiveness when Cesar uses it, are lured into thinking that it is the miracle cure for their “bad dog”. They then go and use it incorrectly and end up severely hurting their pet. My vet has told me a number of stories about irresponsible or uneducated dog owners who leave the prong collar on all the time throughout the dog’s life and then have to go and have it surgically removed from the dog’s neck.
As copperbelle has done, I believe that before dog owners use any training methods, they should research their choices and pick the one that suits them best.
__________________
"My goal in life is to become as wonderful as my dog thinks I am"
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old October 18th, 2006, 08:24 AM
LL1 LL1 is offline
Senior Contributor
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,326
Have to disagree with that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by coppperbelle
Those that do not support Cesar's methods have not had experience with a "bad" dog IMO.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old October 18th, 2006, 08:25 AM
hazelrunpack's Avatar
hazelrunpack hazelrunpack is offline
The Pack's Head Servant
Chopper Challenge Champion, Mini KickUps Champion, Bugz Champion, Snakeman Steve Champion, Shape Game Champion, Mumu Champion, Mouse Race Champion
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Just east of the Hazelnut Patch, Wisconsin
Posts: 53,771
[QUOTE=coppperbelle]
Quote:
Originally Posted by happycats
One lady I heard from was told to ignore her dog for two weeks after he bit her. Yup, that dog is going to know why he is being ignored.
This is interesting. I'm not sure if it matters if the dog knew what it was being ignored for--just that it knew it was ostracized. We had a dog that began biting us (and just us--he was too timid to go after anyone else) at the age of 3. We had a fenced yard, no kids, and little company so we were willing to try to overcome the problem, even though it turned out to be a hereditary trait. After talking to uncountable 'experts' who all told us have him put down, we had a sudden family emergency and had to leave town for a week. We boarded the dog at the vet--because he'd been having aggression issues, he got the minimum necessary human contact only: feeding, exercise on a leash, but no canine or human contact beyond that.

Amazingly, when we got home, he was well-behaved, waited for us to go through the door first, listened well, and most importantly, no more biting! He never forgot the lesson and lived with us happily for another 7 1/2 years before dying of natural causes. I'm not saying there weren't minor relapses but the biting stopped totally. Dogs are so social and so pack-oriented--sometimes a little ostracism, regardless of intent, can work wonders on a dog's psyche.

So that advice was maybe not as bad as it seemed.

I don't want to be construed as recommending the cold-shoulder treatment for a well-adjusted dog, but in some agression cases, it might actually be beneficial to the dog (and his family). I'd never attempt to use the technique on a dog by myself without the advice and supervision of a qualified behaviorist.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old October 18th, 2006, 08:50 AM
happycats's Avatar
happycats happycats is offline
Senior Contributor
Hexxagon Champion
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ontario
Posts: 4,665
ummmmmmm I didn't post that.
__________________
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

What is man without beasts? If all the beasts were gone, men would die from great loneliness of spirit. For whatever happens to the beasts, soon happens to man. All things are connected.

~~Chief Seattle (Duwamish tribe)~~
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old October 18th, 2006, 09:21 AM
dtbmnec's Avatar
dtbmnec dtbmnec is offline
The demons' servant
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Guelph, Ontario
Posts: 779
Quote:
Originally Posted by happycats
ummmmmmm I didn't post that.
it says "quote=copperbelle" up at the top....lol....quoting issues perhaps?

I can't say I've seen his show and the only thing I have ever heard about him is from this forum....I haven't owned a dog either...so I'm gonna go back to lurking

Megan
__________________
My cute little demons:
Leo - male, kitten, April 15th 2006
Pawz - male, kitten, April 5nd 2006
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old October 18th, 2006, 10:30 AM
hazelrunpack's Avatar
hazelrunpack hazelrunpack is offline
The Pack's Head Servant
Chopper Challenge Champion, Mini KickUps Champion, Bugz Champion, Snakeman Steve Champion, Shape Game Champion, Mumu Champion, Mouse Race Champion
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Just east of the Hazelnut Patch, Wisconsin
Posts: 53,771
Quote:
Originally Posted by happycats
ummmmmmm I didn't post that.
You sure didn't... Hmmmm.... I've been having numerous network difficulties today...maybe some stray bits loose in here somewhere? Sorry, happycats and copperbelle....it was quotes gone wild!
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old October 18th, 2006, 10:39 AM
happycats's Avatar
happycats happycats is offline
Senior Contributor
Hexxagon Champion
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ontario
Posts: 4,665
no problem.
__________________
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

What is man without beasts? If all the beasts were gone, men would die from great loneliness of spirit. For whatever happens to the beasts, soon happens to man. All things are connected.

~~Chief Seattle (Duwamish tribe)~~
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old October 18th, 2006, 11:48 AM
coppperbelle's Avatar
coppperbelle coppperbelle is offline
Owned by goldens
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Montreal
Posts: 1,806
Cesar

[QUOTE=hazelrunpack]
Quote:
Originally Posted by coppperbelle

This is interesting. I'm not sure if it matters if the dog knew what it was being ignored for--just that it knew it was ostracized. We had a dog that began biting us (and just us--he was too timid to go after anyone else) at the age of 3. We had a fenced yard, no kids, and little company so we were willing to try to overcome the problem, even though it turned out to be a hereditary trait. After talking to uncountable 'experts' who all told us have him put down, we had a sudden family emergency and had to leave town for a week. We boarded the dog at the vet--because he'd been having aggression issues, he got the minimum necessary human contact only: feeding, exercise on a leash, but no canine or human contact beyond that.

Amazingly, when we got home, he was well-behaved, waited for us to go through the door first, listened well, and most importantly, no more biting! He never forgot the lesson and lived with us happily for another 7 1/2 years before dying of natural causes. I'm not saying there weren't minor relapses but the biting stopped totally. Dogs are so social and so pack-oriented--sometimes a little ostracism, regardless of intent, can work wonders on a dog's psyche.

So that advice was maybe not as bad as it seemed.

I don't want to be construed as recommending the cold-shoulder treatment for a well-adjusted dog, but in some agression cases, it might actually be beneficial to the dog (and his family). I'd never attempt to use the technique on a dog by myself without the advice and supervision of a qualified behaviorist.

Maybe someone at the vets office where he was boarded taught him what he was doing was wrong and he finally got the picture. This is not to say that you were doing anything wrong only that maybe a different approach worked with him.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old October 18th, 2006, 12:46 PM
hazelrunpack's Avatar
hazelrunpack hazelrunpack is offline
The Pack's Head Servant
Chopper Challenge Champion, Mini KickUps Champion, Bugz Champion, Snakeman Steve Champion, Shape Game Champion, Mumu Champion, Mouse Race Champion
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Just east of the Hazelnut Patch, Wisconsin
Posts: 53,771
Quote:
Originally Posted by coppperbelle
Maybe someone at the vets office where he was boarded taught him what he was doing was wrong and he finally got the picture. This is not to say that you were doing anything wrong only that maybe a different approach worked with him.
We thought of that, too. They claimed no--that they'd just fed him, exercised him on leash, and otherwise left him alone.

I think that as grateful as he was to be back with the pack, he was willing to be a bit more subordinate. A few years later we adopted a springer with a really well-adjusted alpha personality and she was a big help keeping him in line, too. She was much quicker to pick up on the start of one of his 'episodes' than we were.

His litter was the first to show the aggression problem, but we heard later that a pup in a closely related litter a short time later had been put down at the age of just 5 months due to aggression problems! The breeder did the responsible thing and shut himself down--aggression is a very tough thing to breed out--unfortunately so much easier for an unscrupulous breeder to breed in...
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old October 18th, 2006, 12:52 PM
meb999's Avatar
meb999 meb999 is offline
Senior Contributor
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: montreal
Posts: 2,673
I think Ceasar Milan's methods are like alot of things in life, not 100% good or 100% bad. You can't say he's never done anything right, and you can't say he's never done anything wrong.

The reason I dislike him, is I find he doesn't explain in which situations his methods should be used. Some of the things he does, MIGHT be affective with an agressive dog, but will seriously harm a submissive dog (you could wind up with trust issues that will NEVER go away....).
Just like I don't think 'calming signals' by Tuurid Rugas would be effective with an agressive dog, but they work wonders on a scared, stressed-out dog.

I think alot of people follow Ceasars advice to a tee because he's famous, and he's 'hollywood'.
__________________
Marie-Eve and Buster (5 year old-ish rescued Boxer)

Deep thought, by Jack Handey : "I think my new thing will be to try to be a real happy guy. I'll just walk around being real happy until some jerk says something stupid to me."
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old October 18th, 2006, 01:48 PM
ByronsMum's Avatar
ByronsMum ByronsMum is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Huntsville, Ontario
Posts: 312
Quote:
Originally Posted by meb999
I think alot of people follow Ceasars advice to a tee because he's famous, and he's 'hollywood'.
I agree with you there, meb.
__________________
"My goal in life is to become as wonderful as my dog thinks I am"
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old October 18th, 2006, 03:55 PM
Trinitie Trinitie is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 833
As with all forms of training, this one too should be taken with a grain of salt to a certain degree.

Cesar Milan uses some very basic techniques, ones that I too use. In the wrong hands, however, Cesar's training can, and probably will, lead to more dog-human confrontations.

Just the other day I saw the show where he rescued 3 Katrina dogs, all of which were NOT fixed (one female and two males). He introduced them into his pack. IMO - bad move! Two intact males with one intact female is just waiting for trouble.

We'll just have to wait and see how long his celebrity lasts.

T
__________________
I'm firm - but fair. Mind the rules and enjoy your stay.

According to the Humane Society of the United States:
There are an estimated 3-4 million dogs and cats euthanized each year in the US alone! PLEASE - spay and/or neuter your pets!
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old October 18th, 2006, 05:38 PM
Prin Prin is offline
Senior member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 28,492
Quote:
Originally Posted by coppperbelle
Those that do not support Cesar's methods have not had experience with a "bad" dog IMO. When I say "bad" I don't mean a dog that is pooping on the living room couch, I mean a dog that has been aggressive or whose behavior is so bad that it will be put down or dumped in a shelter.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LL1
Have to disagree with that.
Me too. I grew up with aggressive dogs and I didn't need to kick them when they weren't looking to get them to fall in line. Nor did I need to drag them out from under things when they were afraid.

There are trainers who are more forceful than just ignoring and praise, and you can physically dominate a dog without it becoming fearful of you, but that is not what Cesar is about. He's about 1960's "just a dog" discipline, IMO.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old October 18th, 2006, 06:01 PM
MyBirdIsEvil's Avatar
MyBirdIsEvil MyBirdIsEvil is offline
Senior Contributor
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Missouri
Posts: 1,720
Quote:
There are trainers who are more forceful than just ignoring and praise, and you can physically dominate a dog without it becoming fearful of you, but that is not what Cesar is about. He's about 1960's "just a dog" discipline, IMO.
I would have to disagree with you. His shows are just a small edited portion, and while you may not agree with his behavior in certain situations, I don't think his overall philosophy is much different than most other trainers.
His book talks about controlling a dogs enviroment to teach him who is dominant, which is no different than most other dog behavior books. No where in the book does it tell people to physically dominate their dog, in fact it talks about ways to curb your dogs behavior WITHOUT having to get physical or having to use devices on your dog.

I don't agree with everything Cesar Millan does, and often his show skips over key points (as all edited shows do), but I think the book is helpful, and I liked the overall method it suggested.

In regards to the article, while Ian Dunbar's methods may work, the article came off extremely bitter, and a bit pompous. It seemed to suggest that his method is the ONLY method that would work. I also disagree with the part that mentions "dogs-as-wolves". No, dogs aren't wolves, but they can still function as a pack, and they still exhibit and understand that kind of behavior, so I don't know what the point of ignoring it is.

Keep in mind, I'm not attacking Mr. Dunbar, I don't know much about his work, I just didn't like the way the article was written.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old October 18th, 2006, 06:24 PM
Prin Prin is offline
Senior member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 28,492
Quote:
It seemed to suggest that his method is the ONLY method that would work.
Oh I hate that attitude with all trainers (who have that attitude). The best trainers should know that every dog is different and what works for one might not work for another.

I see what you mean about Cesar's book though- I haven't read it, but I have said before that what is SAID on his show is useful, but what he DOES is horrible and not at all what he says. If he practiced what he preached, I might not have an issue with him.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old October 18th, 2006, 06:52 PM
littlesister littlesister is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 62
Cesar Millan's show is accessible, and that's what a lot of people need these days. I think it simply teaches people not to be afraid to take control, and I agree 100% with that. In this politically correct time, people are afraid to discipline their dogs and children, so they start running the house. No one wants to hurt them... however in the long run, they'll be hurt more by having no discipline.
Trainers I've met that use only treats and praise, seem only to want to work with clean slate type puppies. Well that's all fun when you're starting with a puppy. They don't seem to want to work with aggressive dogs.
If you know a trainer in Montreal area that works with aggressive dogs without any choke chains, or other such means, do tell.....
I'm still looking....
Ian Dunbar - I'm sure if he had a show we'd all be just as happy to watch that!
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old October 18th, 2006, 07:05 PM
meb999's Avatar
meb999 meb999 is offline
Senior Contributor
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: montreal
Posts: 2,673
know who I love? Stanley Coren. I find he's just the right combination....
__________________
Marie-Eve and Buster (5 year old-ish rescued Boxer)

Deep thought, by Jack Handey : "I think my new thing will be to try to be a real happy guy. I'll just walk around being real happy until some jerk says something stupid to me."
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old October 18th, 2006, 07:06 PM
Prin Prin is offline
Senior member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 28,492
Yeah, and he's got that Marlon Brando thing going for him too. Makes him seem more authoritative.
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old October 18th, 2006, 07:24 PM
MyBirdIsEvil's Avatar
MyBirdIsEvil MyBirdIsEvil is offline
Senior Contributor
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Missouri
Posts: 1,720
Quote:
Trainers I've met that use only treats and praise, seem only to want to work with clean slate type puppies.
I think you hit it on the head. Most training books can teach you a lot about raising a puppy, but they're not very helpful with behavioral or personality problems. What about when your puppy hits adolescence and starts ignoring everything out of the book? What if your dog isn't treat oriented, or he's dominant and very headstrong? Many of those books don't teach you what to do if the training doesn't work on your dog, and they kind of ignore the fact that all dogs have different personalities. Not all dogs are submissive, nor are all dogs happy just to please you, which is the kind of dog a lot of books seem to target.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Terms of Use

  • All Bulletin Board Posts are for personal/non-commercial use only.
  • Self-promotion and/or promotion in general is prohibited.
  • Debate is healthy but profane and deliberately rude posts will be deleted.
  • Posters not following the rules will be banned at the Admins' discretion.
  • Read the Full Forum Rules

Forum Details

  • Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
    Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
    vBulletin Optimisation by vB Optimise (Reduced on this page: MySQL 0%).
  • All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:04 AM.