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  #31  
Old May 16th, 2009, 09:23 PM
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just wanted to let you know that the salmon oil is going down well, so far!
We are going to due sub-a tomorrow and will re-read the info you provided in the
Thread.only 50ml so that will go fast rather than 100ml that Munch use to get
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  #32  
Old May 16th, 2009, 10:24 PM
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That's great that Muffy is liking the salmon oil , a pump twice a day in the food is what Duffy is getting. I find I finish an 8oz bottle long before it goes "off", plus the added vit e and rosemary acts as natural preservatives.

for the fluid therapy & for the urine test
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Old May 17th, 2009, 08:42 AM
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Scott,this is interesting to read,I am so glad we have a couple of the best kitty-gurus to help you out
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Old May 17th, 2009, 03:33 PM
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New Update

Hi all, just wanted to give you an update...never a rest..just founf out the Muffy has a urinary tract infection now. I just drove out to the vet's place to pick-up the meds and will start he on it today. Poor thing, just not having a good couple of weeks.

we will get this one fixed
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Old May 17th, 2009, 04:11 PM
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m.scott,oh no,but that is probably easily taken care of
I love his pic in your Avatar,he has the sweetest face and he's very lucky to be with you,did I say that before
Did we see a larger pic of him??
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Old May 17th, 2009, 04:12 PM
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No,we did not,how about posting a nice big pic of him for us
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  #37  
Old May 17th, 2009, 06:37 PM
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Drooling?

Here is a new one, Muffy seems to have a drool hanging from her mouth from time to time. Stomach acid? Dental issues? Not sure what's causing it. I don't hear the same from Muffy with acid reflux...any ideas?

I will get a bigger pic posted of my little girl tomorrow, she is sooooo cute.
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  #38  
Old May 17th, 2009, 11:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m.scott View Post
Here is a new one, Muffy seems to have a drool hanging from her mouth from time to time. Stomach acid? Dental issues?
Did this just begin, like perhaps coinciding with the start of the antibiotics? If so, it could be that they're making her nauseous. Have her teeth and mouth been examined recently?
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  #39  
Old May 18th, 2009, 06:24 AM
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Hi Sugarcatmom..

Our vet checked her mouth the last 2 times she was here. There is tarter build up, but nothing she saw was significant. The drooling started a while ago and usually when Muffy is sleeping. I usually just wipe it off with a kleenex when i see it, but didn't know if it might be something to worry about.

Good on the Meds overnight, she had me up again at 6:30Am to feed her . oh well at least she is eating.
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  #40  
Old May 18th, 2009, 07:23 AM
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m.scott,now why did I think Muffy was a boyMuffy is about as girlie as she can be
I would think eating is always a good thing
ooops,I just noticed you are in Oakville too..
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  #41  
Old May 18th, 2009, 10:11 AM
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Originally Posted by m.scott View Post
The drooling started a while ago and usually when Muffy is sleeping. I usually just wipe it off with a kleenex when i see it, but didn't know if it might be something to worry about.
Ah okay. I don't really see it as too concerning then. Some cats drool when they purr, and some drool when they sleep just like people do. If she's eating fine and otherwise acting fine, I wouldn't worry at this point.
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  #42  
Old May 23rd, 2009, 08:11 PM
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Exclamation Licking Litter box

Ok now we have a new symptom today, Muffy is now licking litter from her littler box. I see that on the list of symptoms that Calcium or Anaemia can be causing this.

How would I know if either of these issues are causing this?
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  #43  
Old May 24th, 2009, 02:07 AM
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There would be abnormal levels of calcium or red blood cells showing in the blood tests.

Looking at Muffy's previous test results I would suspect calcium imbalance before anaemia ~ the calcium : phosphorus ratio shoud be around 2:1 where Muffy's is almost equal

Info on Hypercalcaemia

Some cats will lay in the litter box as a comfort method and depending on how far they take that it could extend to litter licking.

What kind of litter are you using? With some litters such as sWheat Scoop which is made from wheat it is not unusual for a cat to attempt to eat it since it is food based, still not a response you want concerning the litter box .
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Old May 24th, 2009, 06:14 AM
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I have noticed that she is sleeping more over the past 2-days and eating less than normal. We were holding off on the Sub-Q until the Antibotics were completed (done yesterday). but the link says we should not use Lactated Ringers Solution since it has added calcium. I don't want to move her off the EVO at this point (she seems to be putting on weigh!), but Fibre may help bring the levels down. Any ideas to what I can add to the EVO for Fibre in the diet (not ideal) but says it shoul help bind with the excess Calcium

I am just using regular clumping Cat Science litter and concerned that if she eats too much her system wont' be able to process it.
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Old May 25th, 2009, 01:31 AM
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Your vet wasn't concerned with the phos level, did she mention any concern about the calcium : phos ratio in Muffy's blood results? An aluminum based phos binder might help lower the calcium level as well as the phos.

There are other alternatives to LRS such as Saline solution or Normosol-R that do not contain calcium however it has been stated in Tanya's site that they all (except LRS) may cause a stinging sensation when administering. Normosol-R also contains Magnesium so if Muffy's mag levels are high this is not the right solution, it may also cause twitching. The 1000ml bag LRS has 1.4mmol/L of CA so the amount of calcium in the entire bag is 1.4mmol thats not really a lot considering you're only giving 50ml every 3 days. If you are concerned about the calcium in the LRS you need to speak to your vet before stopping or changing fluids.

If it is Hypercalcaemia adding fibre may not being the best solution:

Quote:
Too much fibre may prevent your cat from absorbing sufficient nutrients or calories from his/her food. In humans, fibre may also bind calcium in the small intestine and lead to an increase in calcium levels in the body (hypercalcaemia). I would therefore recommend discussing the use of additional fibre with your vet before doing so, and perhaps avoiding it in a cat who already has high calcium levels.
I would suggest to try to switch to alternative cat litter such as Feline Fresh Pine Litter, Worlds Best Corn Cat Litter, Yesterdays News Litter, sWheat Scoop all of these are cleaner, more environmentally friendly and contain no harsh dust that clay litters have. Even the dust will clogg up their lungs and yours when adding to or changing the litter.
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  #46  
Old May 25th, 2009, 06:33 AM
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Hi Growler,

Phos - 2.5 (Reference 0.8-2.5)
Calcium - 2.63 (Reference 2.0 - 2.9)

She said that she we only at the top of the reference level for Phos. and still with-in the range for calcium. She is hoping that the lower phos food might help bring the levels down, but I don't think she is a fan of Phos Binders from what I can tell. I remember asking about this wtih Munchkin and we never tried it.

You are right on the LRS, the CA is really low and it's olnly 50ml's every 3-days. I will start that tonight and see what happens.

I had no idea on the littler! I guess it makes sense, but never really thought about it before. I went our yesterday morning and switched to Feline Pine wtih a disting of her old litter on top, so far so good

I will ask the vet about the phos binders again today and see what she has to say. I think she is concerned with all the meds we are giving her. Fortekor, Asprin etc.
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  #47  
Old May 25th, 2009, 04:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by growler View Post
Your vet wasn't concerned with the phos level, did she mention any concern about the calcium : phos ratio in Muffy's blood results? An aluminum based phos binder might help lower the calcium level as well as the phos.
Hi Growler,

Question, on the Felinecrf website it comments that the calcium levels are 100-200% of the Phos levels. Since Muffy's Phos level is elevated the calcium level is higher as well, but still in the exceptable ratio, right? it would mean that her calcium level is 105% to the phos level. is there is further information out there that I can read on this.
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  #48  
Old May 26th, 2009, 12:14 AM
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Yes both phos & calcium are within their respective normal ranges however the ratio should be around calcuim 2 : phosphorus 1 this means the calcuim should be approximately twice as much as the phos level but with both still in normal ranges.

For example Duffy's Calcuim is 2.57 (ref 2-2.9) and her phos is 1.43 (ref 1-2.4 *different labs may have different ranges due to equipment*) while not exactly 2:1 it is very close to that ratio.

Quote:
http://www.broadwayvh.com/site/view/...ICRFFeline.pml
Calcium and phosphorus must remain at about a 2:1 ratio in the blood. The increase in blood phosphorus level, as mentioned above, stimulates the parathyroid gland to increase the blood calcium level by removing it from bones. This can be helpful for the sake of the normalizing calcium : phosphorus ratio, but it can make the bones brittle and easily broken.
Info on Phosphorus

Treating high phosphorus

Quote:
http://www.felinecrf.org/diagnosis.h...hyroid_hormone
In healthy cats, if phosphorus levels are too high, or if calcium levels are too low, the levels of ionised calcium in the body fall. The parathyroid glands are then stimulated to produce more of a hormone called parathyroid hormone (PTH), which tries to adjust the levels of calcium and phosphorus to their correct levels, partly by taking calcium from the bone and by increasing the passing of phosphorus in the urine.It also stimulates the synthesis of calcitriol as the major mechanism to increase levels of blood ionised calcium.

This mechanism should cease once levels of ionised calcium have been restored because calcitriol can normally stop the secretion of PTH; however, as kidney function reduces and calcitriol is not synthesised in adequate amounts, this mechanism may no longer work properly: phosphorus levels may continue to increase and to block calcitriol synthesis and also block dosed calcitriol's ability to regulate PTH gene transcription, and thus stimulate PTH levels to continue rising. Blood calcium levels may appear normal but eventually various symptoms may appear, including lack of appetite (blood glucose levels rise which stop the cat feeling hungry), anaemia, reduced immunity to infection and muscle weakness.
Phosphatemia (high phosphorus levels)

Some vets may be reluctant to use phos binders because some of the more commonly prescribed ones are peppermint flavoured (why I don't know ) but you can get generic tasteless & odorless phos binders from most pharmacies. Phos binders must be given with food in order to bind with the phos in that food & should be given about 2 hours apart from most medications and vitamin supplements as it can reduce the amount absorbed.
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Old May 26th, 2009, 06:44 PM
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Wow! you really know your stuff! i have just emailed my vet to ask about this as I am very concerned if we have additional problems down the road that could have been prevented. I am not sure why she does not want to introduce the Phos. binders and will get to the bottom of this. I have noticed that Muffy will eat, but not as enthused as a week ago.

Any specific reason to why vets don't want to use Phos. Binders? seems like a easy decision too me based on what you have given above

I will let you know what I find out. Thank you again!
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Old May 26th, 2009, 09:26 PM
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Originally Posted by m.scott View Post
Any specific reason to why vets don't want to use Phos. Binders? seems like a easy decision too me based on what you have given above
One factor might be that they don't think it's necessary if the phosphorus levels are within normal ranges. Problem is, those "normal" reference values are determined with stats from all cats, including kittens, who have naturally higher blood phosphorus levels. Normal levels for older cats really should be lower, and many CRF "experts" think that binders should be used when blood phosphorus goes above 1.93.

Also, when treating cats with renal issues, most vets just prescribe low protein (and thus, low phosphorus) prescription food, in which case binders aren't much of an issue. So their experience using them is limited.

And then there is the issue of some phosphorus binders being unpalatable. Vets may not be aware that there are tasteless ones available. Since CRF cats tend to have appetite issues, just getting them to eat anything, never mind something that may put them off their food, becomes the main issue.
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Old May 26th, 2009, 10:26 PM
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Originally Posted by m.scott View Post
I have noticed that Muffy will eat, but not as enthused as a week ago.

Any specific reason to why vets don't want to use Phos. Binders? seems like a easy decision too me based on what you have given above
See if you can encourage Muffy to eat a bit more, use a bit of cheese, boiled chicken, dried bonito flakes, teensy bit of catnip, teensy bit of melted butter etc on top, warming the food by placing the dish in a bowl of hot water.

As I mentioned above & Sugarcatmom has also the still in normal range plays a factor - however like SCM says kittens are normally what gives it that high end range.

Quote:
Phosphorus
Your vet may say that your cat's phosphorus levels are within normal limits, but the high end of the normal range actually applies to kittens rather than to adult cats, particularly those with CRF.
As well many vets are unaware of the generic tasteless binders available, when my grrl was first diagnosed she was seeing a conventional vet and she was unaware of the generic tasteless binders - Duffy's phos levels have always been mid range of normal so she never needed binders, and we have since switched to a Homeopathic Vet anyways .

Given that Muffy's calcuim to phos ratio is "off" and her CA level is in the upper half of the ref range you do not want a phos binder that contains calcuim. What you will want is a generic odorless tasteless Alumininium Hydroxide based phos binder.
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Old May 27th, 2009, 07:58 AM
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Great info again! Muffy seemed to be more energetic last night, had me up a 4Am! she decided to take a tour downstairs which she has not done in 2-weeks and even wanted to go for a walk outside.

I will ask about the binders and none with calcium, do you think that it's usually a small timeframe that you need to give binders? or is this a longer term run? I am just able to get all the vitamins, Co-Q10 and digestive aids in her food that i won't be able to do now.
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Old May 28th, 2009, 11:08 PM
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It all depends on if the blood phosphorus level starts dropping after you've started the phos binder, the levels may drop once there is not as much entering the body. The phos binder acts to remove the phos in the food it is mixed into, it is not specifically designed to remove the phos already in the blood.
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Old May 28th, 2009, 11:47 PM
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New Developement

Hi Growler,

THX for the information. We had another episode of a blood clot passing tonight and took Muffy to the Emergency Clinic. She had a exam and found that she has a tumor the size of an orange in her abdomen . We are not sure what it is at this point, but I can tell you I didn't feel it there a week ago.

The vet further believes that the turmor may be attached to her internal organs and not sure if it's cancer at this point.

Going to get a full ultrasound done to see what is going on in there. The important thing is she is home and seems to be happy, just had a big drink of water and we did sub-q earlier tonight with ease.

I'll keep you posted
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Old May 29th, 2009, 12:43 AM
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I'm sorry to hear about both the bloodclot & the tumour I & have it is not cancerous

Sounds like Muffy is doing alright though after her trip to the ER tonight

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Old May 30th, 2009, 08:16 AM
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It's seems that our best option it to add a few new remidies wtih the sub-q. Since the tumor seems to be attached to organs there is no real option of surgery or chemo. if it is cancer, she is just too old and with the murmur and CRF she wouldn't be able to take it.

I think that this is a fast growing tumor, it seems to have gotton bigger in the past few days.

Muffy seems to be happy and is still eating and drinking and not unconfortable, so we will just keep her that way for as long as we can.

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Old May 30th, 2009, 03:55 PM
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m.scott,yes,that's really the only thing you can do,who knows,she might live for much longer than expected
As long as she's in no pain,still enjoying life with her wonderful people
Cancer is a big ugly word,whether it be people or cats/dogs
for little Muffy
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Old May 30th, 2009, 06:08 PM
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Hi Chico Thank you for the kinds words and support. We have 2 new remedies that we are going to start tomorrow along with the sub-q. They should help drain any fluid in the tumor (if there is any) and as you mentioned may give her more time with us. It seems like we are still just getting to know each other...

The good news is she is still acting "normal" along with eating and drinking, good so far! I just can't believe how fast this thing is growing, a week ago i couldn't feel it.
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Old June 10th, 2009, 08:28 PM
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Dental problem

It seems that Muffy has inflammation on here left side eye tooth. The vet prescribed Antirobe and after reviewing the information online it states to be careful with if there is renal issues. It seems that it's effective (noted on the felinecrf site), but concerned that it may cause further kidney damage. i also tried tasting it and it's very bitter, the vet advised to add to her food, but the last thing I want is her to experience better food and stop eating!

On the good side Muffy's Urea levels decreased to 20.9 from 29 and Creatine is down as well from 316 to 281. now we are dealing with mild anemia, so going to try and increase the B-plex (contains iron) and see if we can get things back to normal.

Any ideas on how to "hide" the Antriobe? any expereinces with it?
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Old June 10th, 2009, 08:45 PM
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Originally Posted by m.scott View Post
the vet advised to add to her food, but the last thing I want is her to experience better food and stop eating!
You're right, the vet is wrong - do not add this to her food!! I'd like to see that vet try eating anything with Antirobe in it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by m.scott View Post
Any ideas on how to "hide" the Antriobe? any expereinces with it?
I have enough experience with it to vow never to use it again. It's seriously the nastiest tasting med ever. The only thing I can suggest is keeping it in the fridge (the cold may ever so slightly lessen the taste) and after you syringe some into your cat's mouth, follow it with a chaser of tuna juice or offer her lots of treats and beg her forgiveness. There is no hiding this stuff in anything.

Also, watch out for diarrhea and at the first sign of it, call the vet and tell them you're stopping the Antirobe. Clindamycin has been known to cause colitis, not something you want to deal with in a healthy cat, never mind one with CRF. I'd strongly suggest picking up some probiotics to help replenish the good bacteria that are also going to be killed off. Get the high-potency capsules from a health food store (yogurt won't cut it).

I realize vets like to prescribe Antirobe because it's very effective against oral bacteria, but I personally don't think it's worth the stress of administration, nor the potential for digestive issues. Clavamox tabs crushed and mixed into wet food is a better, easier option.
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