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Old June 8th, 2009, 08:36 AM
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dog/child incident

Hi All, It's been awhile since I've posted, not a lot of time these days for message board's, unfortunately (hi to anyone who remembers me!). But after yesterday, I felt I should make time and get some advice from experienced dog owners/parents.

Here's what happened: My friend was visiting for the weekend w/ her 5 year old son. We were all inside and my dog was outside by the screen door wanting to come in. The child hit the screen several times and my dog thought he was going to get hit. He snapped at the air and barked at the boy. The boy reacted by hitting the door more and getting aggressive. Apparently he has done this before, hitting and kicking animals who react negatively to him (hissing, barking, snarling, etc). After he moved away from the door, and his mother was 'reasoning' with him, I thought it was safe to let my dog inside. The child immediately went after him and hit him. At that point i decided it was best to let my dog back outside but the way out was past the kid. I managed to get the dog outside but not without him recieving another kick. Needless to say, my dog was not happy and did growl at the child, though only when he was kicked and hit. I did not see if he snapped, but no one was bitten or hurt. I am afraid he'll now be even more wary of kids (he is generally friendly, but is wary of them and not around them much). And I am very annoyed with my friend for letting her child behave like this around animals. It's alarming, I've never seen a child act like this. He could get seriously hurt or killed if he hits/kicks the wrong dog. My friend actually said she wished my dog had bitten her kid, to teach him a lesson! I really don't want my dog being in that sort of situation and never want him to bite anyone. Any advice?
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Old June 8th, 2009, 09:13 AM
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Your friend is being an irresponsible idiot IMO. I'd be FURIOUS if someone pulled that kind of stunt. I don't care if it's an adult or a 3 year old, NO ONE should ever hit/kick a dog, and if it is a 3yo it's the parent's responsibility to teach them properly. Your dog was justified in growling...he was issuing a well-deserved warning to that brat to smarten the heck up...that shows restraint, so good on your poor pup.

I'd do two things:

1. arrange for your dog to meet/spend time with some gentle, well-mannered children who have been taught how to properly interact with dogs, in order to create more positive experiences

2. Tell your friend that if she wants to come over, she either has to keep the kid away from your dog or leave the little booger-head at home
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Old June 8th, 2009, 09:21 AM
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Someone was hurt, your dog. I personally wouldn't give the friend an option anymore. If it was my friend she'd be told her child is not welcome in my home. Obviously she doesn't teach her child right from wrong, and your dog should have to put up with being abused. I am no where near as patient as you, i would have warned the mother once, and if nothing was done, i don't care about the law, that child would have been put over my knee. No children shouldn't be smacked, but dogs shouldn't be abused either. I will choose my animals any day.
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Old June 8th, 2009, 09:48 AM
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Thanks for your replies, I am definitely not going to allow him near my dog until I am sure he will treat animals with respect. This may take several years... too bad, but I really don't like to be put in that sort of situation, or potentially have my dog be used to 'teach a lesson'. The thought of my dog possibly biting a child scares me and I've failed my dog if I let that situation occur. I would never hit someone else's child, but see your point. I did speak rather sternly to him and told him not to hit my dog (twice), but he did anyway. In response, he was not allowed to watch his DVD's on the 6 hr drive home. But nothing was done while the situation was ongoing, to control the boy. She has no authority over him, that's apparent. He has behaved this way with their family cat and also other visiting (but much smaller) dogs.

Unfortunately I don't really have any friends or family nearby with well-behaved children for socializing. My dog gets along well with my older niece, but is somewhat wary of younger children. He seems more scared than anything. He is around toddlers only a few times a year, but does have some generalized fear issues, including wariness of strangers, especially bigger men. Perhaps if I could work on that, he'd be better with kids all around. He's never bitten anyone, but don't want that to ever happen.
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Old June 8th, 2009, 09:52 AM
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You can start providing your dog with opportunities to socialize very easily...just take walks in town that expose him to new people. Walk by a playground and watch the children. Have him say hello to as many new people as possible on a regular basis.
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Old June 8th, 2009, 09:53 AM
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Reading this post just got my blood boiling but directed at that mother.

Your friend is irresponsible and very naive. This kid needs some old fashion disciplining.

I would tell your friend that she is welcome to your home, but if that kid is around your dog - you want the brat muzzled and umbilical corded to her waist. Seriously - I would NOT allow this behaviour. It may hinder your relationship with your friend, but explain to her that this dog is YOUR child and what is happening is intolerable and unsafe.
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Old June 8th, 2009, 09:59 AM
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It's really kinda sad you know. Because the child acts this way with animals he'll never know the joys of cuddling up with a fuzzbut for a nap, etc. I've lucked out with both sisters and their children. They were very hands on in educating them to be nice to the doggies. You could try to deal with the child without the moms assistance. My nephew were both talked to about, would you like it if someone kicked, poked,smacked you. Would you like it if the puppy bit you cause you hurt him/her. etc. Part of the problem is children that aren't taught don't seem to understand that animals have feelings too.

Bendyfoot's suggestions are excellent, just walk him in area's where there are people. Not neccessarily mix with them at first. just get pupper used to them.
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Old June 8th, 2009, 10:06 AM
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You must tell your friend that this cannot happen again. This child is quite agressive for a 3 year old (a terror in the making). If he wants to come over again, he must behave and be gentle with your dog. His parents should have used this situation as a teaching tool. Give him another chance, maybe it will turn out fine. Actually 3 is becoming an age of reasoning.
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Old June 8th, 2009, 10:14 AM
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Hi and welcome back Kristin7
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kristin7 View Post
And I am very annoyed with my friend for letting her child behave like this around animals. It's alarming, I've never seen a child act like this. He could get seriously hurt or killed if he hits/kicks the wrong dog. My friend actually said she wished my dog had bitten her kid, to teach him a lesson! I really don't want my dog being in that sort of situation and never want him to bite anyone. Any advice?
This child needs serious discipline which he's obviously not getting any. The sad thing is if your dog did bite in defence he could be in danger of been pts or you getting fined and having him being muzzled for life. It wouldn't be up to her to make that complaint it would be the hospital's duty to call Animal Control. IMO though he's 5 that's just scary, not his fault but still scary. Good for you for not ever allowing him back to your home. Agree with the other's to walk by parks so he could hear/sense children laughing/playing and areas where they're alot of people.
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Old June 8th, 2009, 10:16 AM
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The scary part is that he is actually almost 5, not 3. Old enough to know better. They do have 2 dogs in the family, and no issues with them. But the cat has had some problems, as have other dogs. They have tried spanking and he hits back, so that stopped. Reasoning doesn't work either, he just doesn't listen. My take is that he needs some counseling (they all do), because this just isn't normal behaviour. The discipline is not nearly strict enough, he actually acts out more when his mother is around than at other times. He is quite spoiled and an only child. He hits adults and other children, too. I don't like being around him myself, because of the hitting and tantrums, but tolerate him because I'm friends with his mother. But a line has been crossed. I am more and more angry thinking about it today.

I will try and get my dog out more. He has always been fearful of strangers, but has gotten much better over time. Maybe it will never go away, but do think he could improve more.
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Old June 8th, 2009, 10:19 AM
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wellhopefully thr brat will not lose a limb when he tries that on the wrong doggie
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Old June 8th, 2009, 10:20 AM
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Kristin7 - I feel for you. It is difficult as you obviously cherish your friendship with your friend.

I remember my daughter at age 3. One day she did not get her way, so she took a broom and hit my cat with it. Guess who got a taste of that same broom? You got it.

She is now a young adult who is also an animal advocate (gee I wonder where she gets that from???)

There is hope for this little kid, but I think you are right - he needs professional help.
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Old June 8th, 2009, 10:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kristin7 View Post
He has behaved this way with their family cat and also other visiting (but much smaller) dogs
This speaks volume. What defence does their cat have :sad: except run and hide everytime this boy is within sight

Last edited by Golden Girls; June 8th, 2009 at 11:09 AM.
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Old June 8th, 2009, 10:46 AM
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Ok back to the pupper issue. I find dogs are fearful of what they're rarely exposed to. My big boy is very timid of men as he isn't exposed to very many. The two or three he see's on a regular basis he is great with. This fear led to a very unfortunate and dangerous occurance a week ago. Since then we've been going out of our way to introduce him to more and more males so he can see they are almost as good as his mommy's. The more you expose your little one the one he'll come around. Getting others to give him treats will work wonders too.
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Old June 8th, 2009, 11:02 AM
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Along with all the great advice you are getting from other members please see what you can do to get that poor cat away from him. He will end up killing it.
That child has issues that will only get a lot worse if not dealt with now. He is 5. Not a baby!
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Old June 8th, 2009, 11:06 AM
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I thought the same thing 14+ Maybe you can talk to your friend?
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Old June 8th, 2009, 11:15 AM
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Without having actually met the child, and not being any kind of an expert, I will say that this is not normal behavior, not even for a very spoiled child. I used to babysit a child who acted much like this (temper tantrums, hitting back when spanked, etc.) It turned out he had a form of autism, although it took several years for it to be diagnosed. You need to protect your dog from this child, but your friend needs to have a specialist, who knows about these kinds of problems spend some time with her child if at all possible.
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Old June 8th, 2009, 11:16 AM
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Sorry, I got the age wrong. The child is 5 and this issue has to be addressed maybe with a child psychologist, if the parents can't cope. Agression is often a sign of frustration. Maybe this child has something going on in his life that he cannot deal with and is taking it out on helpless animals??? Very spoiled children want everything their way, because this is what they are used to. Often the parents are too easy going and they don't teach their children that every action has consequences. Luckily this dog is gentle, but another dog may bite and the child may pay the price of his parents' lack of teaching skills. Where is the father in all this, is there a father involved in the child's upbringing? Children often take advantage of a single mother or parents that are not a united front. Give this child another chance and use your gentle dog as a teaching tool. This situation may turn around in a very positive way.
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Old June 8th, 2009, 11:17 AM
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Along with all the great advice you are getting from other members please see what you can do to get that poor cat away from him. He will end up killing it.
That child has issues that will only get a lot worse if not dealt with now. He is 5. Not a baby!
You are absolutely correct. This child needs serious help now, before it gets out of hand. It is just not normal for a child of 5 years to want to hit an animal. At that age, the norm would be to want to give a pet hugs and kisses. I would not allow the child back into my house because if your dog bites him, it is your dog that will be the loser.

Good luck.
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Old June 8th, 2009, 11:41 AM
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Wow I just read this and I am stunned!! I have 4 kids ages ranging from 10 to 4 and None of my kids are like that with any animal. They are very gentle and soothing to my boys and any other pet for that matter. My 4 year old does get confused sometimes about the difference in size (from a 160 lbs mastiff to a 5 lbs kitten) so she needs reminding to be gentle but they would never tease,kick and hit a animal. It makes me very sad that this mother is giving all small kids a bad name with allowing this to continue.
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Old June 8th, 2009, 11:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ownedbycats View Post
Without having actually met the child, and not being any kind of an expert, I will say that this is not normal behavior, not even for a very spoiled child. I used to babysit a child who acted much like this (temper tantrums, hitting back when spanked, etc.) It turned out he had a form of autism, although it took several years for it to be diagnosed. You need to protect your dog from this child, but your friend needs to have a specialist, who knows about these kinds of problems spend some time with her child if at all possible.
You are absolutely right ownedbycats. Very good points.
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Old June 8th, 2009, 12:05 PM
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Thanks for all the suggestions. I did talk to the mother right after the incident, she said he only responds to things being taken away from him (like the DVD player). However, that really doesn't help while the situation is going on. I suggested spanking.. but it wouldn't have to be that, just restrain and move him out of the area. And work with him on the aggression - this should not be tolerated at all, like i'm sure they don't tolerate him playing in the street. I'll try and get ahold of her and mention possibly having him evaluated. He does have a father, who does discipline, but often uses anger while he's doing it. Probably not helping, nor does it help they don't get along w/ each other very well (the parents). I hope he does not hurt the cat, without being around them, I'm not sure what the abuse entails. I would take the cat myself, if necessary. They live about 2 hrs from me, so I only see them occasionally, often without the father, who doesn't like to travel much. The boy used to be very sweet and much better with animals, but the last year or so has begun responding aggresively to animals or people who he perceives as having hurt him in some way, or just not liking him at the moment (like my dog barking at him, or a cat hissing). For example, one time we were around a larger group of people, he was running around and tripped over someone's foot (older woman). He thought she did it on purpose and came at her to hit her. Luckily my friend was able to get ahold of him before that happened, but he was not apologetic and still wanted to attack the poor woman, who had done nothing wrong. He throws huge tantrums if he does not get his way, his mother is definitely lenient, and not at all an authority figure.

I did tell my friend my dog would be the loser if he bit her child - she said she would not press charges and would lie to protect him. That doesn't comfort me much, I doubt her husband would go for that, plus, what about my poor dog, being put in that situation to begin with? What would he learn from that? nothing good, and now I will worry about him around my nieces or other small children, he'll be more scared than he was before. I will take him out more to parks, and carry some treats with me.
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Old June 8th, 2009, 12:22 PM
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ahhh so thats it the whole family need to see a consuler i feel rally sorry for the kid
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Old June 8th, 2009, 12:24 PM
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Oh dear.. what a sad situation with an 5yr old.. & the animals/people/he encounters. I hate to see what school life is gonna be for him :sad:

As for the situation that caused him to get an reaction from the dog in the first place.. (Banging on the screen several times) That to me should of been a sign for a) Mom or You to get up & deal with it right then & there.. I am sorry but someone banging on my door is going to get a reaction from most dogs. (Mine included)

redirecting his attention from that moment may of saved your stress & the dogs too.

my .02
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Old June 8th, 2009, 12:34 PM
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Have to agree with everyone's opinions here. No one with a 5 yr old child acting this way would be allowed in my home unless they all saw a psychiatrist. This kid is a menace and terror. He might be picking on animals today but in the future it will be humans. I can just imagine what he would do to an animal if he was alone with it, what if his mom had not been there this time, or you? This kid is heading straight for big trouble and needs help NOW, as in last year ....
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Old June 8th, 2009, 01:23 PM
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Yes, 2 of the adults in the room did immediately speak to him instructing him to stop hitting the door. One of them was myself, neither of them was his mother. I then went over to the door and told him to stop it. Things get somewhat blurry from there. I was not aware he would do that to a dog he did not know very well, and who is bigger than he is. The other animals he's hit have been quite small in size. His mother should have taken ahold of him and punished him sternly right there, I was stunned that she wasn't in control, though should have known better, having been around them in the past. Yes, I feel bad for all of them, but can't really do anything except make suggestions and hope they get some help (and keep my dog away from the kid). And I don't have to put up with the boy, but really don't know much about kids and would rather not punish someone else's kid, and wouldn't probably be able to deal with this one appropriately anyway (I would likely lose my temper, it wouldn't be pretty, and my dog actually handled it better than I would). He has been in preschool and had problems because he was hitting other kids all the time.
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Old June 8th, 2009, 05:43 PM
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Red flag

RED FLAG This child is in need of some psychological assessement (maybe the mom too!). Childhood animal cruelty may be a precursor for criminal behaviour, or indicative of a disorder.

http://goliath.ecnext.com/coms2/gi_0...-a-review.html


Humane Society of U.S. "Children & Animal Cruelty: What Parents Should Know" http://www.hsus.org/hsus_field/first...ould_know.html

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Old June 8th, 2009, 05:53 PM
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I understand your situation.. I find it very sad that kids are not taught to respect animals at a young age, soome kids are never around dogs, and then they don't know how to treat them, some hurt them and think they are just things and others will be terrified, it is a good thing for people to expose kids to animals of all kinds when they are still small.

Once I took my lab to school to pick my girls up, the kids were outside playing baseball when I got there, so I took my dog to go watch. We stood well behind and away from where they were. A few kids came up to see her, along with them was a boy, who was 8 at the time. He came over, called her like he was going to pet her then kicked her in the face, hard! I was SO UPSET!! I could not believe it, this was a kid that had me my dog before, and has a dog, although they are not the best dog owners.. But to me it was shocking. He got in a lot of trouble at school, but his mother never made him apologise or anything, like it was no big deal, my poor dog, she willingly went to this boy, that is sad going up to someone that wants to see her thinking she will get a pat, and then gets a kick in the face...
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Old June 8th, 2009, 08:03 PM
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Kicked in the face?! that is so sad, your poor dog, I hope she was ok!

Yes, they do all need some counseling, but of course, I can't control that. Maybe if I say he can't be around my dog anymore, it will make an impression on her and at least I could have some influence. I hope they get some help, obviously whatever they are doing or not doing is not working. You're right BenMax, I do cherish the friendship. She is my longest term friend, over 20 years. I really don't enjoy being around her son anymore, or watching people be in a bad relationship. I worry about their pets, and hope my dog forgets. It is good to know he reacted as many dogs would, especially ones who aren't around kids much.

ps hi GG and thanks for the welcome back! I should post more often, you all have such great advice
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Old June 8th, 2009, 08:14 PM
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That child would not be allowed into my house again regardless if his mom is a good friend. Not only is your dog put at risk, so is the boy. Keep them safe, keep them away from each other.

As for other more gentle children you know, teach them, with the help of their parents, how to properly greet a dog. Arm them with lots of yummy treats and allow your dog, at his own pace, to take them if he wants. Watch your dog's body language carefully for cues as to whether or not he's comfortable.

Try googling 'children and dogs safety.' You'll find all sorts of valuable information on socializing your dog and teaching safe, appropriate behavior to children. Never, ever, leave young children, especialy ones that aren't your own, with your dog for any amount of time unsupervised.

I'm sorry you both had to experience this.
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