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Old January 31st, 2010, 01:30 PM
TMSearcher TMSearcher is offline
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hi

Hi I am new to this site..I was lurking and decided to join...I love animals..But dogs in paticular..I have a 2 year old Fawn Great Dane named Della..She is my pride and joy.I aquired her at 17 weeks.There was a tragedy in the family and no other members could take her..So I jumped at the oppertunity as I have always been around Great Danes.I have many friends who own them and Della has playdates with a few.I am currently looking to get another dog..I just recently moved into a bigger home for this.

I was in Europe a few months ago..There was a woman walking a beautiful dog in which I thought was a Newfoundland..But to my surprise it was a Tibetan Mastiff..Well I fell in love with this breed..They are stunning...And I love the size.And I did see a few more around. I have done some research on them.And I know this is the perfect breed for me.I have checked out some breeders..Not sure if I am allowed to post the breeders but I am..I just need some information as to if they are they type of breeders who are good..I reall don't know that much about breeders..What I have been told is that there is a waiting list.Is this how it is? What should I be looking for in a good breeder?

Here are a few I have been eyeing.

http://tibetanmastiff.tripod.com/
http://www.tibetanmastiffbreeder.com....shtml#jlitter
http://www.khamala.net/index.html
http://www.everestnorthtms.com/

Also, I am very sorry if this isn't a site to be asking these questions.
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Old January 31st, 2010, 06:45 PM
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It's great that you're doing your homework before purchasing from a breeder!

It IS very normal to have a waiting list when dealing with a reputable breeder. If their dogs are in high demand, and they're not pumping out tons of litters (which they shouldn't), then you should expect to wait a little while. Consider it good time to communicate with possible breeders, get to know them, and let them get to know you.

Here is a great set of tips for what to look for and what to avoid when searching breeders' web sites:
http://blacksheepcardigans.com/ruff/?p=3245
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Old January 31st, 2010, 06:48 PM
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And here is some information about breeder/buyer relationships and ettiquette:
http://blacksheepcardigans.com/ruff/?s=etiquette
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Gracie - Mutterooski X - scary smart (9)
Jaida - GSD - tripod trainwreck and gentle soul (4)
Heidi - mugsly Boston Terrier X - she is in BIG trouble!!! (3)
Audrey - torbie - sweet as pie (11 months)
Patrick - blue - a little turd (but we like him anyways) (6 months)
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Riley and Molly
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Old January 31st, 2010, 07:02 PM
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Fantastic post, bendyfoot. It's interesting to hear about the process from the other side. I didn't know about the "adoption" vs "sale" thing. I still cannot bring myself to use "dog/cat" and "sale" in the same sentence.
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Old January 31st, 2010, 07:14 PM
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TM, of the four web sites you posted, the only one I'd even THINK about contacting would be the last one. Their dogs are titled, lots of pictures of the dogs in the show ring, hip/elbow certification numbers and pedigrees are provided etc...that would definitely be one I'd explore further.
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Audrey - torbie - sweet as pie (11 months)
Patrick - blue - a little turd (but we like him anyways) (6 months)
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Riley and Molly
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Old January 31st, 2010, 07:40 PM
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Bendy posted some very good links.This will help you get some good info on them.

I also agree with the choice of breeders that Bendy picked.I too would go for the last one.When looking for breeders that's what you want to see.

When I got my first GSD, I went to shows and talked to breeders..I checked their websites out.Having titles along with health/genetic testing was very important to me. But that's just me.My dogs sire and dam were titled not only in conformation but in SchH.And yes I was on a waiting list.But it was worth the wait.I got 2 more from her when my first passed on.

I would email that breeder.

Also, I just have to say that I LOVE Danes.
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Old January 31st, 2010, 07:49 PM
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I forgot to mention.Breeders have contracts.IF you want to show, you will be put on a non breeding contract.This means that once the dog has been health/genetic tested and certified, and has been titled, then and only then will the breeder lift it...The other is a s/n contract.They usually give you a certain age to have this done.With me it was 6 months.And I had to sent her the vets certificate stating they were done...
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Old January 31st, 2010, 08:13 PM
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welcome to the forum and very glad you're doing your research..I'm surprised the others didn't notice this,,,the second to last link that you posted " khamala.net is one of our members pups. Erykah's dog Karma's puppies,,,here's a link to when they were just born and there is a picture of karma there too.

http://www.pets.ca/forum/showthread....ghlight=erykah
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Old January 31st, 2010, 08:58 PM
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WOW aslan, it didn't even register as to who that was.Good eye.


personally, I would still go with the last breeder.
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Old January 31st, 2010, 09:06 PM
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Originally Posted by aslan View Post
welcome to the forum and very glad you're doing your research..I'm surprised the others didn't notice this,,,the second to last link that you posted " khamala.net is one of our members pups. Erykah's dog Karma's puppies,,,here's a link to when they were just born and there is a picture of karma there too.

http://www.pets.ca/forum/showthread....ghlight=erykah
Leave it up to Aslan--you're so SMRT...SMART!

Tibetan Mastiff are so beautiful TMSearcher and if you have the room to accomodate their size, Della would have something to look up to (or down at)!
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Old January 31st, 2010, 09:12 PM
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Welcome TMSearcher. This is a great site. I'm sure you will learn lots of valuable information. You already have great insight from a couple of very knowledgeable people in bendyfoot and Mona b.
I recognized our member erykah's site only because I recognized Karma. I remember when she was a little puppy herself not so long ago. She is a beautiful dog. I don't know the dog she was mated with. Maybe he was from her breeder's bunch?
Have you contacted any of the breeders to see if there is a waiting list? It was/is my understanding that good breeders had waiting lists as their puppies are very desirable and it has been proven they are genetically "fit". I would imagine their pairings have been repeated a few times so have been proven. I would also be asking the breeder how often they bred their dogs. Have you checked out their contracts? As Mona B said most breeders insist on s/n clauses. They want to ensure there are no issues with one of their dogs being bred with an undesirable mate.
Just as an aside..... I just checked Petfinder. There are currently 22 TMs available for adoption. Maybe that would be a way of getting the dog you want although you wouldn't be able to check bloodlines I don't imagine.
Good luck with your search. Please let us know how you are making out.
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Old January 31st, 2010, 09:13 PM
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Originally Posted by aslan View Post
welcome to the forum and very glad you're doing your research..I'm surprised the others didn't notice this,,,the second to last link that you posted " khamala.net is one of our members pups. Erykah's dog Karma's puppies,,,here's a link to when they were just born and there is a picture of karma there too.

http://www.pets.ca/forum/showthread....ghlight=erykah

Huh, wow, didn't clue in to that at all!

But, if the OP wanted advice based on website searching alone, I would still stick with the last one on the list.
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Audrey - torbie - sweet as pie (11 months)
Patrick - blue - a little turd (but we like him anyways) (6 months)
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Old January 31st, 2010, 09:51 PM
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14+ are the 22 here in Ontario?

TMSearcher, is it a pup you want or would you go for an older one? You may want to check with the breeder if they have older ones if that's the route you wanted to go. And if you are wondering why they would have older ones, it's because they have been returned to the breeder. Something that the breeder insist you do if you can no longer keep the dog.

Another thing you want to look for is that the breeder is a member of the CKC and is a member of the club of their breed. So with this breed it would be The Tibetan Mastiff Club of Canada..This to me is another must.
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Old January 31st, 2010, 10:12 PM
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Missy Mona, I'm not sure if they're all in Ont. I just went back and checked. There are now 21!! Must have had an adoption be finalized. Great news!!! One more to have a home.
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Old January 31st, 2010, 10:15 PM
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Ok. I was just curious.

Yayyyyyy for the puppers.....
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Old January 31st, 2010, 10:23 PM
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Ok. I was just curious.

Yayyyyyy for the puppers.....
I can't get Petfinder to open for me. I don't know if I have a block on that site or not on my comp. Will have to do some searching to find out. Sometimes I'm pretty computer illiterate. Or is it site illiterate?
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Old January 31st, 2010, 10:27 PM
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LMAO your toooooo funny.....
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Old January 31st, 2010, 11:40 PM
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My stat counter brought me to this thread.
Welcome TMsearcher
Although clearly I would say go with a Khamala pup, I am not looking to "move" puppies and the one thing I love about the TM world is that all the breeders do work together.
Susan from Everest North and I have had a few conversations regarding showing and handling, over the years and her dogs are stunning. Thor is a wonderful boy ( I have not met him in person but do hope to in the near future)
I met Barb from Michewa this fall and she too is a wonderful woman, her dogs have a lot of drakyi lines behind them except for Dahoe who is her import from France I believe she said. Meeting her dogs this fall was amazing, Dahoe is a sweetheart with such personality and weird little quirks that make her so lovable. Her stud that was used for this breeding ( as well as Stormnangels litter) is a HANDSOME boy. He has good type and a wonderful temperament.
Lyse at Stormnangels is my mentor and the breeder I got Karma from, I have dealt with Lyse the most understandably and if I ever had a question or concern she was right there with an answer or support. Orient is my Karmas half sister, less coat than Karma but a real sweetie ( in her own way)
Regardless of what breeder you do choose to go with, of the 4 of us ( as well as many of the US breeders) you can expect a great deal of life long support.

What ever you do though, please make sure to research lineage... there are not a lot of health problems running rampid in TM lines right now, but some lines are starting to show some problems. Dont base your descision solely on websites alone be sure to ask as many questions as you can to which ever breeder you chose.

Best of luck in your search and when ever you do add a TM to your home, be prepared to be completely love struck by the breed. I can never see myself NOT having one now.

14+ are the 22 TM's in rescue in Ontario? The CTMS site is being revamped and responsibilities are being given to people involved in the breed and as myself being involved in the rescue end of CTMS we have not heard of them.
There recently was a whole litter in Ontario being posted on kijiji as being rescues but a bit of detective work on all our parts discovered it was a breeder (in the list of websites listed) who had a friend "homing" them
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Old January 31st, 2010, 11:50 PM
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Another thing
TMsearcher, if you could narrow down what you are looking for in a future TM such as size, coat, temperament, type, structure ect. I can help you narrow down your search.
Having spent a bit of time with most of the dogs you are looking at as potential parents for a future pup I may be able to help point you to which breeder may be best suited for what you are looking for.
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Old February 1st, 2010, 04:30 PM
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Thank you so much for everyone who has posted.

Unfortunately this will have to be a quick post as I am heading out of town for a couple of days.


erykah1310, I am thinking more along the lines for showing.But I do not plan on breeding. That is just not my forte. I want to have fun and hopefull my pup will enjoy it also.

But looking at the websites, I really like the looks of the last breeder.I like that they actually show the pictures in the winning show pose.And with the other ones all I see is puppies that were born. I want to see more.

Well I am sorry this is short.But I will be back.
Once again thanks guys.Please keep the replies coming.
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Old February 1st, 2010, 06:35 PM
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Just be sure to ask a lot of questions.
hopefully you and your pup have fun in the ring one day
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Old February 1st, 2010, 07:39 PM
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Well if you are thinking of showing,then for sure go with the last breeder.They are the experts and have the knowledge of how to get started in showing.They will guide you.

I have a few friends who show,and they enjoy it.You get to meet many people and travel.
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Old February 3rd, 2010, 08:42 PM
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erykah, just a question.

I don't remember you ever saying in your posts about showing Karma. Have you been showing her? If so what titles has she earned? Just curious..
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Old February 3rd, 2010, 11:01 PM
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Short answer, No, no titles no shows,

I want to show her but unfortunately with the way my work scheduele has been the past year it is impossible to head to the shows down south ( as I work all over Northern Ontario) I conisdered putting her in a few of the 'local' CKC shows, however, she would be the only TM in the ring guaranteed which is not a problem now that she has matured more, she would be competing for best in group and show in order to get points being that she is definately the only TM there, and I scratched her from this fall's local show due to kennel cough running rampid. I entered for the experience of a show for her and myself but her health comes first and I did not want 3 dogs with kennel cough.

I theoretically could have put her in the 'kennel cough' show, got a lovely best of breed picture with her and the judge making her look good and putting it on my website for prestige and no one being the wiser to the fact she was the only one of her breed and no points were obtained from it...

This fall we are hoping to have Karma in the ring against a stormnangel dog or two and see what happens, there is a CKC show near her that I can easily get to so fingers crossed for that.

I origionally had contacted Susan from Everestnorth last year to find out what shows she was attending, in Ontario she has been competing against her own dogs and very few outside TM's, it would be good for both her and I to have Karma in the ring as well, and if we can get a few others out at the same shows as well it would be great. After we discussed putting our dogs up against each other the conversation turned to her offering to handle Karma at more of the southern shows for me to get her CH faster.
Still undecided on that as I would like an owner handled championship, as a beginner it will take longer which doesnt matter to me.

Also right now we are focusing on Karma getting an obedience title as well as her CGN, with this breed this is almost laughable as obedience is not their forte what so ever. But Karma really enjoys it suprisingly and if at the very least she can get her CGN I will be happy

I have a pup being imported this spring, he will be a close relative to Karma but carries a lot of the Drakyi lineage on the other side of him which will bring size into Canada (Drakyi breeds Tsang Khyi while most of Canadian breeders are breeding Do Khyi which are smaller with exception of Michewa) I will be having him professionally handled right away. Here is a bit about the pups grandfather Timberline Barni Drakyi located part way down the page
http://www.tibetanmastiff.com/main_f...les/events.htm
He started his show career late but took the TM world by storm. I am really hoping that the pup has color, as black TM's just dont seem to do as well

thing that is really hard for breeders in Canada and the US right now is the closure of our stud book, we can no longer import and register new lines with AKC (therefore no CKC registration either) Some breeders have talked about moving to a different registry and even have non AKC (or CKC) registered dogs that they are breeding (not on websites clearly). In one breath we are hearing a lot of "stop breeding american bred dogs in canada and focus on canadian bred" but then from the same mouth you hear, "Lets forget AKC/CKC and move to xxxx registry"

I am thread jacking my own post incredibly, sorry about that, but I just love talking TM's.
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Old February 3rd, 2010, 11:31 PM
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Originally Posted by erykah1310 View Post
Another thing
TMsearcher, if you could narrow down what you are looking for in a future TM such as size, coat, temperament, type, structure ect. I can help you narrow down your search.
Having spent a bit of time with most of the dogs you are looking at as potential parents for a future pup I may be able to help point you to which breeder may be best suited for what you are looking for.
Aren't size, coat, temperment, type and structure part of the breed standard?

I may be mistaken here, but the point of showing (and the only reason that I feel it is vitally important that dogs are at least pointed before they are bred, but I prefer to see a Ch. in front of the name) is to make sure that it meets the breed standard.
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Old February 4th, 2010, 11:54 AM
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Originally Posted by erykah1310 View Post
14+ are the 22 TM's in rescue in Ontario? The CTMS site is being revamped and responsibilities are being given to people involved in the breed and as myself being involved in the rescue end of CTMS we have not heard of them.
There recently was a whole litter in Ontario being posted on kijiji as being rescues but a bit of detective work on all our parts discovered it was a breeder (in the list of websites listed) who had a friend "homing" them
Actually, I finally managed to get on Petfinder. There are now 18 available. Some are mixes. Some purebred. None seem to be in Canada which I suppose is a good thing.
But you say that there is a breeder who is advertising on kijiji. What makes that breeder any different that a byb if that is indeed what is happening? If they are purebred then how do the people adopting get papers for them? Do you not need the names of both sire and dame in order to register your dog? Obviously the breeder does not care about signing a s/n contract. Is this not how problems start in the first place? People breeding just to make money (clearly that breeder's intent if advertising on kijiji) and not for the betterment of the breed. The pups get sold with no contract and the breeding begins. Oh Happy Days!!!!
Sorry for the rant. I am a firm believer in fixing the problem we have now instead of creating more. You should hear me when it comes to cats!!
Back to the regularly scheduled thread.
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Old February 4th, 2010, 07:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LavenderRott View Post
Aren't size, coat, temperment, type and structure part of the breed standard?

I may be mistaken here, but the point of showing (and the only reason that I feel it is vitally important that dogs are at least pointed before they are bred, but I prefer to see a Ch. in front of the name) is to make sure that it meets the breed standard.
this may help explain what I am talking about with size and coat.
http://www.tibetanmastiff.com/main_f..._files/faq.htm

You can see the coat difference here http://www.tibetanmastiff.com/main_f...les/events.htm

and here
http://www.tibetan-mastiffs.net/family.shtml#janoo

Some are shorter coated but both conform to standard.

here is the AKC standard
http://www.akc.org/breeds/tibetan_mastiff/index.cfm

Quote:
But you say that there is a breeder who is advertising on kijiji. What makes that breeder any different that a byb if that is indeed what is happening? If they are purebred then how do the people adopting get papers for them? Do you not need the names of both sire and dame in order to register your dog? Obviously the breeder does not care about signing a s/n contract. Is this not how problems start in the first place? People breeding just to make money (clearly that breeder's intent if advertising on kijiji) and not for the betterment of the breed.
That is exactly what I was saying.
the pups are not on kijiji anymore but being that they were from Ontario my breeder called me as soon as she was made aware of the pups. She had a very accusing tone with me at first as I am sure she had with all her Ontario puppy owners. So I emailed the ad and recieved this
Quote:
I don't have any. I am trying to help a friend by prescreening. I will forward your email. Thank you
and with that reply there was a signature with website info that i forwarded to my breeder, the next day she called me and gave me a link to a "hidden" page on this site showcasing the pups. The breeder who had produced those pups had no mention of the parents on their site or of the breeding????
As for their registration, I have no idea... may not have been AKC or CKC registered to begin with as you couldnt register certain imports with those registries so who knows what they are registered with if any registry at all.

I only brought that whole little secret litter up to prove a point that not everything is as it seems.
There is also a very well known and highly respected in the show world American breeder who is producing upwards of 80 pups per year, but thats alright because atleast all their dogs are Ch's right?

I learnt a LOT from my horrible experience with the Boxer breeder when I co owned my little boxer, I thought that just because the breeder had all sorts of show titles on many of their dogs, health clearances and an apparent excellent breeding program that it was the best of the best. That breeder was referred to us from another breeder in their "circle" (which suprisingly was a big circle)

Sometimes even those who seem to be the best (or close to) are just as skeezy as any byb'er.
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  #28  
Old February 4th, 2010, 07:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LavenderRott View Post
Aren't size, coat, temperment, type and structure part of the breed standard?

I may be mistaken here, but the point of showing (and the only reason that I feel it is vitally important that dogs are at least pointed before they are bred, but I prefer to see a Ch. in front of the name) is to make sure that it meets the breed standard.
I agree with this 200% and then some. With me I would never get a pup that the sire and dam was not pointed. And it doesn't matter if I was getting it just as a pet as I have with all my dogs past and present.

erykah1310, a breeder who titles, has the health/genetic clearences, is a member of the kennel club and is a member of the breed club(with good standing), IS to me an ethical breeder. This should be of importance to ANYONE searching for a breeder.

14+ BOTH parents MUST be registered to register the pups. If you are on a non breeding contract and the dam gets pregnant BEFORE health/genetic testing and titled, then those pups can't be registered.
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Old February 4th, 2010, 09:16 PM
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erykah1310 erykah1310 is offline
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Dont get me wrong, I do agree, however its not the be all and end all is the point I am getting at.

I see any further involvement in this thread is just going to go no where here and for that reason alone I am just going to stop sharing experiences I have had with these clear cut only possible 'ethical' breeders and 'smoke and mirror website kennels' as well.

All I can do is urge the OP and anyone else who may come across this post in the future to talk to as MANY people as possible. References from breeders is great but be aware there are circles that all breeders are in be sure to check outside of them.

For many breeds it is more of a competition and of course you will have cliques, its just not like that with anyone I have dealt with or spoken to in TM's, like I said in my second post in here before being clearly glared at down peoples noses I am not looking to move pups... and am willing to help out in any way to help find their perfect TM regardless who's breeding program it comes from.

So to prevent this thread from being thread jacked into any more of a "erykah1310 is a craptacular breeder with no ethics" I will now bow out of it.
Should anyone have any questions to ask me or to express any opinions on my breeding practices please feel free to start a new thread or PM me. I dont want this graceful bow out to be misconstrued into my avoiding the spotlight.
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Old February 4th, 2010, 09:22 PM
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LavenderRott LavenderRott is offline
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IMHO - there is a difference between reputation and ethics. I have talked to some "very reputable" breeders who could sell me a show quality puppy any day of the week but that was about all they were good for.

When looking for an ethical breeder (someone who truly breeds for the betterment of the breed) many things come into play. Breeding only dogs who meet the breed standard - having been judged by a disinterested third party - is only the beginning of the process and a very vital part of the process.

I see your point about coat as described by the AKC breed standard. However, I don't see any differences in size, temperment, type or structure.
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