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  #61  
Old March 5th, 2007, 12:08 AM
Prin Prin is offline
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lol to me kibble is all processing... Whether it's being rendered or being mixed... But yeah, it's probably manufacturing when the meals get to wherever TO assembles it's food...
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  #62  
Old March 5th, 2007, 01:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stergeR View Post
i bought mine from stores. A couple of my forum mates experienced the scene of worms wriggling their way through those dark brown looked-oxidized-kibble as well. I couldn't find any pack with expiry date FEb 2008. Will keep a look out on that date.
That is gross Live protein!!!
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  #63  
Old March 5th, 2007, 02:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mummummum View Post
What formula of TO are you feeding ? What has your store done for you ? Are they going to get feedback from TO as to why that shipment was infested ?
TO Lamb and apples.
They did an exchange with me but the second pack of TO lamb and apple is infested with worms as well.. Therefore they just do a refund and claimed that they will feedback those infested packs to their supplier. I reckon that currently its only my country that has this infested shipment problem. And from what i know from TO regulars, its not the first time as well.. Thinking to change brand of kibble again if this problem persist.. Its too traumatizing!
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  #64  
Old March 5th, 2007, 10:02 AM
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Do they look like this



Quote:
Of the many insects found in stored grain and in milled cereal products, the mealworms* are the most easily recognized. These straw-like beetle larvae resemble wireworms. When full grown, they are about an inch long. hey are found in all parts of the world and have long been familiar because of their usefulness as food for birds, reptiles, fish, and small mammals, as well as for their habit of breeding in grain and milled cereals. It is believed that both species of mealworms found in the United States have been introduced from Europe or Asia.
Damage: The mealworms are primarily scavengers and prefer to feed on decaying grain or milled cereals that are damp and in poor condition. However, they will devour meal, flour, bran, grain, coarse cereals, bread, crackers, mill sweepings, meat scraps, feathers, the bodies of dead insects, and similar materials. Mealworms prefer dark, damp places, such as in accumulations of grain in neglected corners of mills, under bags of feed in warehouses and feed stores, in bins containing damp grain, or in the litter of chicken houses and bird houses where feathers and refuse grain are mixed with excrement. They also occur in and around bumble bee nests. In Vermont, they are often found in hay chaff and litter in barns, and damp pet food and bird seed in homes. When full grown, mealworms wander about, probably in search of a place to pupate and transform into beetles. Large numbers frequently wander into strange places and cause more trouble by their mere presence than by the actual damage they do in feeding. Description: The adults are black, darkling beetles about 3/4 to 1 inch long. The small, white eggs are laid singly or in small clusters, in the material in which the insects are living. The larvae of mealworms are smooth, shiny-bodied, uniformly brown to yellow "worms" closely resembling wireworms. When fully grown, the larvae are 1 to 1 2 inches long. The pupae are 2 to 3/4 inch long. When first formed, they are white, but gradually change to a yellowish brown.

Control: Removal of the food source and cleaning normally control infestations in the home. Prevent mealworm infestation by periodically cleaning up accumulations of grain, meal, flour, sweepings, and refuse in mills, warehouses, granaries, and elevators, or under loading docks or warehouse floors through which such products sift. Such sanitation is normally sufficient for control of mealworms on the farm. Spraying wooden floors and walls of empty granaries and warehouses can help prevent mealworm infestations.
For it to only occur in TO foods, would have to have occured where they made it, otherwise all the other food imported there would be infested if the adults beetle were some how getting into the bags and laying eggs

Maybe the reason their location is being kept secret is for damage control because of reported bags of food of possibly other brands being produced in the same location are containing worms.
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  #65  
Old March 5th, 2007, 12:44 PM
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I sure hope we can get to the bottom of the mystery location soon.
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  #66  
Old March 5th, 2007, 01:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OntarioGreys View Post
For it to only occur in TO foods, would have to have occured where they made it, otherwise all the other food imported there would be infested if the adults beetle were some how getting into the bags and laying eggs

Maybe the reason their location is being kept secret is for damage control because of reported bags of food of possibly other brands being produced in the same location are containing worms.
Or given that stergeR is in Singapore, it could have been cross-infestation from an unrelated container on the cargo ship.
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  #67  
Old March 5th, 2007, 10:02 PM
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Quote:
Or given that stergeR is in Singapore, it could have been cross-infestation from an unrelated container on the cargo ship.
THis is why I specifically stated imported foods, the containers would be packed for the distributor in Singapore so would have had a variety of dog foods from NA in the same container, so TO should not be the only food affected if this was the case.
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  #68  
Old March 5th, 2007, 10:04 PM
Prin Prin is offline
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But StergeR also said it wasn't the first time, right?
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  #69  
Old March 6th, 2007, 01:26 AM
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yeah, according to those TO regulars as well as what the pet shop that claims..this is definitely NOT the first time.
I have check out with fellow pet owners in my country and so far at this moment, only TO has this worms infestation problem. As they have been comparing between brands.
And what's more? Its not only the canine formula that has worms.. feline formula has it too! Claimed by one who has their Serengeti kibble weeks ago.
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  #70  
Old March 6th, 2007, 02:15 AM
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I find this part of the return policy very interesting, and unusual

Quote:
Opened or partially used products are non returnable unless a problem exists with the quality of the product. As we do not specifically formulate for taste, smell, consistency, color or other factors unrelated to healthy nutrition, these factors shall not be considered just cause for return of opened or partially used products.
If you are following a a specific recipe, with same percentage of ingredients each time than there should be consistency from one bag to another, at least I would think


and
I have never seen a limited guarantee on dog food before

Canidae return policy
Quote:
If you are not completely satisfied with any of our products, please return the unused portion with the receipt to the place of purchase for a complete refund or replacement.
wellness return policy
Quote:
We guarantee that your dog or cat will love your Wellness Pet Food selection or your money back. If for any reason you are dissatisfied, simply return the original package with the unused portion to your point of purchase for a full refund
EVO Return policy (from the bag)
Quote:
Because we think you will agree that Innova EVO is the healthiest pet food in the world, we offer an unconditional satisfaction guarantee
Nature's Variety policy
Quote:
Our natural, nutritious products are produced with integrity and care for the health of your companion animal. All of our products are 100% Satisfaction Guaranteed.
Pinnacle dog food
Quote:
100% satisfaction
guaranteed!
All Pinnacle brand pet foods come with our
guarantee that you and your dog will both be
completely satisfied. If for any reason, we do not
meet your expectations, just return the unused
portion to the place of purchase for a full
refund or exchange.
Royal Canin
Quote:
Should you not be 100% satisfied with the performance of our products, we will gladly replace the product or refund your purchase price. Simply save the unused portion, along with your purchase receipt and contact us at 800-592-6687 or return the product to your local retailer or veterinary clinic.
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  #71  
Old March 6th, 2007, 12:58 PM
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Goldens4Ever Goldens4Ever is offline
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Uuuummmmm....I'm sick to my stomach now. Why can't these supposed 'high quality' dog food companies keep consistently producing a good product? Why do they try to cut corners when it means loss of business from consumers? It doesn't make sense!!!

So, if the kibble doesn't have worms in it, than that means it's OK or should it be thrown out? Does that mean that their grain-free Ocean Blue is OK?
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  #72  
Old March 6th, 2007, 01:15 PM
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Even iams was willing to refund my purchase price and they didn't want the kibble back.. My dog didn't want to eat it, that was enough for them.
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  #73  
Old March 6th, 2007, 02:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OntarioGreys View Post
THis is why I specifically stated imported foods, the containers would be packed for the distributor in Singapore so would have had a variety of dog foods from NA in the same container, so TO should not be the only food affected if this was the case.
Not meaning to be argumentative but, I can't agree. It would depend on the how the Timberwolf order was shipped, whether the entire order was pallet-wrapped or single-crated and what it came into contact with on the loading docks, how and in what it was ground-shipped etc. For all we know it was a small order that came by cargo plane with a crate load of wild rice from Saskatchewan.

Anywho I'll keep on with my research on the "Yukon Nutritional Company" to see if I can trace where Timberwolf is manufactured.

Last edited by mummummum; March 6th, 2007 at 02:10 PM.
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  #74  
Old March 6th, 2007, 02:33 PM
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Quote:
Opened or partially used products are non returnable unless a problem exists with the quality of the product. As we do not specifically formulate for taste, smell, consistency, color or other factors unrelated to healthy nutrition, these factors shall not be considered just cause for return of opened or partially used products.
Well, that totally just sucks. All part and parcel of their crappy customer service, I guess.
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  #75  
Old March 6th, 2007, 02:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Goldens4Ever View Post
So, if the kibble doesn't have worms in it, than that means it's OK or should it be thrown out? Does that mean that their grain-free Ocean Blue is OK?

If it doesn't have worms in it, I wouldn't throw it out. We still don't know for sure how the worms got there. If they are mealworms I don't think it matters if it's grain-free or not.
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  #76  
Old March 6th, 2007, 02:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mummummum
Anywho I'll keep on with my research on the "Yukon Nutritional Company" to see if I can trace where Timberwolf is manufactured.
I totally forgot that that was the original name. I tried to find a website for them (googled "Yukon Nutritional Company") but couldn't. I did find this comment from http://www.eskie.net/dog/food/ interesting though.....

Quote:
Timberwolf Organics Timberwolf brand of foods from Yukon Nutritional Company. There is some interesting information on different qualities of ingredients on their site, but they also don't list enough details on their own foods as of yet. Worth a look for their comments on ingredient quality though!
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  #77  
Old March 7th, 2007, 08:00 PM
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I received a response from Chris Porch @ Timberwolf Organics concerning where their foods are produced. I am undecided about what to think. If the facility is so high-end, why not state the facility then? Could it be the same facility that produces Natura (California Natural, Innova, HealthWise) or Champion (Acana & Orijen) pet foods??

Thanks for your question!

Our products are produced in a high end facility which has a long history in the manufacturing of high quality feeds for companion animals. It has earned itself a reputation for producing several other well known natural pet foods in the industry, however this information is proprietary in nature and we are therefore unable to release this information.

Before any product enters our facility, before any truck is unloaded, inspection is made and random samples are taken. These samples are then taken to the facilities laboratory for screening, testing and analysis. The range of tests will also include proximate, aflatoxins, vomitoxins, peroxide values, microbial, temperature amongst others.

Our facility also has regular inspections by the USDA and APHIS. The plant is a member of the Pet Food Institute and as such is continuously updated on all regulation changes and is notified immediately of any outbreaks which would affect production so that any precautions or stoppages could be made.

All poultry based meals and frozen poultry are supplied and received only only from facilities process poultry and no other meats. These facilities are USDA/APHIS approved facilities. The poultry included in our formulas are all hormone and steroid free and contain human grade chicken fed on real feed with no waste included.

Fish oils are received only from suppliers that are USDA/APHIS/NMFS approved. Our fish oils are naturally preserved by the supplier.

Our facility have built a close relationship with all their suppliers conducting long term research and development to be at the top of their profession and the industry. Between them they have years of experience with which they are able to bring to the table the finest in companion animal food production.
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  #78  
Old March 8th, 2007, 12:09 AM
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Two things caught my eye:
Quote:
The poultry included in our formulas are all hormone and steroid free and contain human grade chicken fed on real feed with no waste included.
It contains human grade chicken, but not ONLY human grade chicken? And hormone and steroid free after testing or because they aren't given steroids or hormones?

Quote:
Fish oils are received only from suppliers that are USDA/APHIS/NMFS approved. Our fish oils are naturally preserved by the supplier
This I found funny because yesterday, when I was looking up the Yukon Nutritional Company, there was one study that included pharmaceutical grade salmon oil supplied by the YNC... So if they make their own, then why do they have suppliers of the oils?

(not meant to imply anything, it's just confusing)

Oh and I didn't get any reply yet...
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  #79  
Old March 8th, 2007, 12:18 AM
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I personally don't have an issue with the proprietary information. There are so many other issues about dog food that this seems like a minor item to me (just my opinion). The whole dogs journal posted this a while back. I have confidence that if they endorse a product then it is manufactured reputably.

As with the canned food review we published in December, we tried something new with this installment of our dry food review. We asked most (we missed three) of the companies on our past “Top Food” lists to provide information about their manufacturing operations and ingredients.

First, we asked them to tell us where their foods are made, and we asked them whether they disclose this information to their consumers. As we discussed in “Made in a Secret Location” (January 2003), most pet food companies don’t like revealing anything about their manufacturing operations.

We also asked them to provide us with documentation to substantiate any special claims they make about their ingredients. If they say they use organic ingredients, we wanted to see organic certification documents. If they hint that they use “human grade” ingredients (we’ll discuss that in a second), we asked to see USDA certificates."

Their annual Top 10 lists are released in Dec (canned) and Feb (dry) of each year...


They also mentioned (in 2003) that rotating between 3 or 4 top quality foods is better than sticking with just one food for all of your dog's life.
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  #80  
Old March 8th, 2007, 12:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prin View Post
Two things caught my eye:

It contains human grade chicken, but not ONLY human grade chicken? And hormone and steroid free after testing or because they aren't given steroids or hormones?

This I found funny because yesterday, when I was looking up the Yukon Nutritional Company, there was one study that included pharmaceutical grade salmon oil supplied by the YNC... So if they make their own, then why do they have suppliers of the oils?

(not meant to imply anything, it's just confusing)

Oh and I didn't get any reply yet...
I don't know what to think. It doesn't make sense.

The worm infestation, whether it is derived from the meat meal or grains, is alarming to me. I read the other posts about TO's imported food, but still, the fact that these occurences are only with TO's products doesn't rest well with me. :sad:

I would just freak if I saw a bunch of worms wriggling around in their bag of food, because I'd probably feel them on my hands before I saw it, as I just dig the measuring cup in & get the food without looking at it. Aspen has a little bit of the Lamb, Barley & Apple left & since I saw that picture & read about this, I make a point of looking at it every single time now before I dig my hand in there.
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  #81  
Old March 8th, 2007, 12:46 AM
Prin Prin is offline
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Yeah, but there's a difference between shipping it to Canada and shipping it halfway around the world too.. Right?
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  #82  
Old March 8th, 2007, 01:01 AM
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I agree. I would be extremely concerned to hear about an outbreak here but am not that worried about the whole Singapore thing. That is a long way to ship and many things could happen to have caused it.

BTW .. I was speaking with my local store and asked them about TO return policy and she said no problems. I told her Riley had a reaction to the Wild & Natural and she told me to go ahead and bring it back because the company just gives them a refund.
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  #83  
Old March 8th, 2007, 01:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TeriM View Post
........BTW .. I was speaking with my local store and asked them about TO return policy and she said no problems. I told her Riley had a reaction to the Wild & Natural and she told me to go ahead and bring it back because the company just gives them a refund.
Same as ours. It doesn't matter how empty the bag is or the reason for the return. If we are unsatisfied with TO's foods, we can return it for a full refund.
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  #84  
Old March 8th, 2007, 07:34 PM
Bentley'sMom Bentley'sMom is offline
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Timberwolf Job Posting

I've been feeding my 6 year old golden TO Wild and Natural for a month with great results: less itchy and no hot spots.

This thread about TO quality control and manufacturing secrecy got me curious enough to do some internet searching. I found a TO job posting on the Orlando Craig's List dated 2007-02-27 for the position of Purchasing and Inventory Control Analyst. It makes for interesting reading; sounds like assessing supply and demand must be a challenge for them right now.

Also, one of the listed job responsibilities is to "evaluate suppliers' manufacturing process".

TO seems to offer great formulas. I hope its customer service continues to improve as it has been. I just wish there was more openness in the manufacturing process.
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  #85  
Old March 8th, 2007, 07:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bentley'sMom View Post
........sounds like assessing supply and demand must be a challenge for them right now........
Yes, it is. I was having an extremely difficult time getting my hands on their Ocean Blue formula, as the place where I buy it from is completely out because that formula is on back order & they have no idea when they're getting more in. I spoke with TO about this & they stated the demand for that particular formula exceeded their future product projections, but they are making steps to ensure that they will always be able to have enough product to meet the demand. I guess that's why they're having to add that position that you mentioned (Purchasing & Inventory Control Analyst). It will be that person's job to accurately predict how much food they need to produce.

Luckily, I found a secret place online to buy 2 big bags!
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  #86  
Old March 9th, 2007, 02:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TeriM View Post
I agree. I would be extremely concerned to hear about an outbreak here but am not that worried about the whole Singapore thing. That is a long way to ship and many things could happen to have caused it.

BTW .. I was speaking with my local store and asked them about TO return policy and she said no problems. I told her Riley had a reaction to the Wild & Natural and she told me to go ahead and bring it back because the company just gives them a refund.
yup, totally agree with that. As Singapore is kind of far from your side. It already take hours for me to reach US or even Europe by air and not forgetting that those food were travelled by sea. :sad:
by the way, does this sentence, "MANUFACTURE IN USA" printed on the back of the packaging on your side?
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Old March 11th, 2007, 06:56 PM
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Hee hee....it looks like Chris Porch has a standard form letter to send out. Here's my reply.....



Our products are produced in a high end facility which has a long history in the manufacturing of high quality feeds for companion animals. It has earned itself a reputation for producing several other well known natural pet foods in the industry, however this information is proprietary in nature and we are therefore unable to release this information.


Before any product enters our facility, before any truck is unloaded, inspection is made and random samples are taken. These samples are then taken to the facilities laboratory for screening, testing and analysis. The range of tests will also include proximate, aflatoxins, vomitoxins, peroxide values, microbial, temperature amongst others.


Our facility also has regular inspections by the USDA and APHIS. The plant is a member of the Pet Food Institute and as such is continuously updated on all regulation changes and is notified immediately of any outbreaks which would affect production so that any precautions or stoppages could be made.


All poultry based meals and frozen poultry are supplied and received only only from facilities process poultry and no other meats. These facilities are USDA/APHIS approved facilities. The poultry included in our formulas are all hormone and steroid free and contain human grade chicken fed on real feed with no waste included.


Fish oils are received only from suppliers that are USDA/APHIS/NMFS approved. Our fish oils are naturally preserved by the supplier.


Our facility have built a close relationship with all their suppliers conducting long term research and development to be at the top of their profession and the industry. Between them they have years of experience with which they are able to bring to the table the finest in companion animal food production.


Chris Porch
Customer Support
Timberwolf Organics Inc.
P.407-802-7865
www.timberwolforganics.com
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  #88  
Old March 11th, 2007, 09:32 PM
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Mocha's mum Mocha's mum is offline
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Jeez, why are these guys so secretive?? Sounds a little fishy to me (no pun intended)...
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  #89  
Old March 11th, 2007, 09:58 PM
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Rainbow-

Oh my goodness....:sad: Here I thought he took time typing that response, rather then it being a general, pre-typed response that's sent out to anyone with the same question. That's too bad. I wonder of other high-end companies would tell us where theirs are manufactured...
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  #90  
Old March 12th, 2007, 01:33 AM
Prin Prin is offline
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Yeah. Just when you thought one dog food company might be different from all the rest. :sad:
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