Urgent: Save my dog! Looking for effective Doberman Personal Trainer in Toronto

[Nick_N]

Hi everybody

I havent go on the forum for a while, I have some questions regarding to dog training, if anybody could help me out I would be really appreciated.

I have an 2 years old Doberman Pincher at home, he is very friendly with people (Since I led everybody in the neighborhood to pet him when he was a pup) I Love him very much. He is my best friend.
But whenever he sees other dogs/animals, he behaves very upset and he is very vocal (he barks so loud). There is one time I went to school in the morning, my mum just took him out for a quick pee-pee in the front yard. (she usually doesnt take him out at all, only in the morning when I'm not here) my dog see other dog across the street and he pulls and launch over at them, my mum tried to hold him back but she cannot, she felt and got dragged a little. When I got home that day I saw all the bruises on her arms and her knees, I feel very bad.

I used up my saving from my part-time job to get him back to the obedience class around my area (I spent almost $800 dollars in 4 weeks) but it didnt work out. When I was in the class with my dog, teacher didnt even touched my dog, she said my doberman barks & "get him away from the labrador Retriever, go to the corner" Anyway, it didnt work out. He stills jumps and pull like crazy when he sees dogs and small animals. Since my mum doesn't really want me to have a dog in the first place, and she sees the obedience class training is not working. She wants me to get rid of the dog and save up all the expenses. Since dad's not here and she said she doesnt have time to take care of everything and my dog if he doesnt behaves. I really dont want this to happen!! My dog is very loyal to me, I remember when I went to camping for 2 days, my sister told me my dog didnt eat. He was sitting by the garage door at night waiting for me. (Thats where I get in to the house at night) He keeps whinning and whinning, wondering where did I go. Even he is a big kid now I still pet him every night before he goes to bed. I CANNOT give away my dog! Does anybody here knows any personal dog trainer in Toronto that is very good at training Doberman? If yes, please help me out.

Thank you very much for everyone help, I really appreciated.

[papillonmama]

That's really too bad, I hope you don't have to give up your dog either. A groomer recomended this one to me, http://www.whoswalkingwho.net/

It's really too bad that the other trainers weren't able to help either. It reall is a tough situation because your dog would benefit from the socialization, but is too excited when around other dogs to learn anything. Keep coming back to read others' suggestions, I'm sure there are people with more experience with this.

Good luck

[muckypup]

I recommend Olympus or CR Dogs.

http://www.olympusk9.com/
http://www.crdogs.com/

[ChancesMom]

Check this one out for tips:

http://www.dogpsychologycenter.com/

[Cygnet]

Right now, I think you should go out and buy either a prong collar or a Gentle Leader (or try both). You don't have time to wait until this dog gets trained to get him under control. He is a liability unless everybody in your family can control him.

Even if your dog doesn't mean to scare other people and their dogs (and I am not clear whether he is excited and just wants to socialize, or whether it is aggression), other dog owners don't want to see an out of control doberman charging at them. And your mother clearly isn't on board to save this dog's life. If it is going to happen, it will be up to you.

By the way, none of this is your fault. You are a kid. Your parents shouldn't have gotten a dog if THEY weren't willing to be responsible for adequately training it and caring for it. It is totally unfair to you that this has fallen on your shoulders and when you have kids of your own, I hope you won't do this to your kids. But your reality right now is what it is and if this dog doesn't get under control right away (and a prong collar or a gentle leader can and will work wonders for most dogs) this story will not have a happy ending.

You should also pursue obedience training, of course.

[mastifflover]

I have used a prong collar but my recommendation is to find someone who knows how to use one properly they can be dangerous if used wrong and will not be effective. I had great success with mine but I had a trainer show me how to use it. I am sure they would not charge you to show you how to manipulate it properly. Good luck and I hope it works for you.

[Cygnet]

Prong collars can be inhumane if used wrong, but I am not sure about "dangerous" unless they are used completely idiotically and sadistically. But, then again, ANY training tool (including a buckle collar) can be dangerous if it is used idiotically and sadistically.

I don't think Nick should wait around for the best trainer and the perfect solution here. This dog's life is in danger right now and (depending on what is going on) other dogs' lives might be in danger too.

[jesse's mommy]

Unfortunately the dogs life can be in danger either way. It's very easy to misuse a prong collar if never taught properly. If he does decide to get a prong collar, he needs to learn the right way to use it or the dog could choke. Please don't recommend things for an "immediate result" if it could put a dog futher in danger by not using it properly.

[Cygnet]

Dogs can choke on buckle collars. Dogs can choke on slip collars. Prong collars are pretty darn safe (and actually, their proponents like them because they DON'T tend to choke dogs) and using them isn't rocket science.

What isn't safe is having a doberman that is charging at people and other dogs and that nobody can control. This dog could easily do something tomorrow that will result in its death or in the death of another dog or in the injury of a person. Weighing all of the factors, I think it is important for Nick to do everything possible to get this situation under control as quickly as possible. He can do that tomorrow by getting and using a prong collar or a Gentle Leader.

[jesse's mommy]

As I said before, it's a good idea to us AS LONG AS HE IS GIVEN THE PROPER INSTRUCTION. What don't you understand about that statement?

[Cygnet]

I'm truly not trying to start a fight with you, Jesse's Mommy. But it might well take Nick some time to get "proper instruction" on training this dog. He can (and should, in my view) get a prong collar (or a Gentle Leader) and start using it NOW for walking this dog, even if he can't get "proper instruction" right away. The chances that a dog will "choke" on a prong collar while being walked are extremely minimal. Indeed, I don't really see any possible way for it to happen (although I know enough about freak accidents to know that one can never say never). On the other hand, the chances that this dog will hurt somebody (either because it is aggressive or because they believe it is aggressive) or will do something to cause its own death are quite high. If Nick can get "proper instruction" on how to use a prong collar tomorrow, so much the better. If he can't get "proper instruction," then I don't believe he should delay using the prong collar to walk this dog, even absent "proper instruction." YOu obviously disagree. Nick will have to decide what he is going to do.

[jesse's mommy]

What is your background to be recommending someone to use a training tool like this without proper instruction? This is as bad as prescribing medication for a pet over the internet without being a vet or seeing the animal.

[Prin]

Please don't try a prong collar on a dobie without being taught how. Personally, I'd never use a prong on a dobie (the fur is so short, so the prongs would be basically directly on the skin.. ).

The newtrix collar might be a good place to start while you find an obedience school. It's non-damaging and pretty effective without using much strength on your part.. http://www.newtrix.ca/docs/ourproducts.php

[rainbow]

This is the first time I've read this thread, because of the word Toronto" in the title, I figured it didn't pertain to me.

I would also recommend the Newtrix Easyway Collar. I walk two large dogs together (a husky and a lab) and it has helped me tremendously.

It is also sold here at the pets.ca store (click on store at the bottom of this page) for 44.95 which includes shipping.

[phoenix]

I third the recommendation on the newtrix. It's an amazing help for walking (but of course no replacement for training, but in the meantime..)
Good Luck

[mummummum]

I'll weigh in with a strong vote in favour of the newtrix collar and some one-on-one training for socialization and behaviour. You have a dog who is physically strong, is a "puller" and (sorry to be blunt here...) doesn't yet respect you as his leader. And it sounds like you are now in a situation where you are fearful of what your dog will do, so your tendency will be to overcorrect his pulling by pulling back. With a prong collar and even a gentle leader you are going to cause your dog pain and potentially permanent physical damage. From what I've seen of the newtrix in action on the street and at dogparks, I think it's a far safer and likely as effective an option as the prong collar for you at this point. You might also want to search past threads on this forum about aggression, some of the members along with Tenderfoot have provide really helpful advice on training and intervention methods to practice.

I just want to add that I'm dealing with aggression issues as well so I know what you are going through and I too have some work to do in earning the trust and respect of my dogs as their leader.

[MyBirdIsEvil]

Unfortunately the dogs life can be in danger either way. It's very easy to misuse a prong collar if never taught properly. If he does decide to get a prong collar, he needs to learn the right way to use it or the dog could choke.

Honestly I think it's extremely unlikely to choke a dog with a prong collar, you're more likely to choke your dog with a flat collar. Prong collars are made like half check collars, and unless you put them on extremely tight in the first place it would be hard to choke your dog, in fact I've seen most people put them on too loose, not too tight.

I still wouldn't recommend using a prong collar unless you know a lot about it though, especially on such a large dog. Sticking a prong collar on a dog that has lunging or agression issues isn't going to make the dog suddenly behave, you have to be taught how to properly use the collar, and use it along with training, for it to actually make any difference. If you're just yanking on the collar while the dog is lunging and pulling, it's just going to confuse the dog, and may even make it lash out towards you because it's not sure what's causing the discomfort.

If you've ever watched the Dog Whisperer, there was an episode with a poodle that liked to lunge at cars. The owners had a prong collar on the dog and all the did was cause the dog to spin around uncontrollably while trying to get to the car, almost knocking the owners over and pulling them into traffic. Until they were given guidance, the prong collar had almost no effect, which is what's likely to happen until you actually know how to use it.

If you want to actually solve the problem, I would look into books and articles about establishing yourself as pack leader. I would recommend Cesar Millan's book, not because it's necessarily the most detailed out there (though it's extremely helpful), but because it's one of the easiest books to read and understand. I talks about all kinds of things to do to make your dog realize that you're in control of all situations. It also talks about fixation and body language. Your dog doesn't just suddenly see a dog and run towards it, there's several hints that the dog has noticed the other dog and may be ready to lunge towards it, you have to distract your dog or remove it from the situation BEFORE it decides to lunge at the other dog, because by that time, the dog is big enough to drag you and you can't do much about it besides try to hold the dog or drag it away, which teaches it nothing.
This isn't an obedience training book however, if you want info on how to properly use a leash and collar to train your dog, there's plenty of other books and articles out there, as well as several threads on this forum.

[angeldogs]

I was using a prong collar on my dog which has the fine hair also.And if he would pull and i would take it off and checked his neck i would see red spots.Also it was rubbing his fur off.I talk to a trainer in Kitchener.She told me to try the SENSE-ation Harness.So i went up and fitted the harness.Works great.you clip the lead to the front at the chest.And on a flat collar in the beginning and ween it to just the harness.My dog can still pull but not at full strenght.And he's strong.It hits the presser points and makes the dog feel like he is losing his balance.He would just about pull my wife over.Last night she tried to walk him.And he could not puller over.Love the haness.dog likes it also.No presser on the neck and more freedom to sniff.

[Cygnet]

I absolutely agree that a prong collar (and perhaps to a lesser extent, a Gentle Leader) causes a dog discomfort. I would not be surprised if a prong collar caused "little red spots" on dog's neck when the dog pulls (and if the dog is shorthaired, you are more likely to notice those spots, but it could also cause them in a long haired dog). But Nick is confronted with a situation where his dog is going to be dead in a very short time if there isn't a very serious intervention. Between little red spots and being dead, I would choose little red spots for any of my dogs (By the way, I don't even like prong collars and hardly ever recommend them and have never used one on my own dogs-but I do think that they work and they beat being dead).

I am not familiar with the "newtrix" collar. I am familiar with the cycle that the reputation of training aids typically follow: First there is a highly enthusiastic contingent of people recommending the new aid's use. Then there are people who come and say how they are bad, and cause permanent physical harm or psychological damage or warts or something. There is a big backlash, usually NOT based on any real evidence of a lot of dogs being hurt. For example, remember the supposed "study in Germany" that demonstrated that slip collars cause tracheal damage in dogs? It is very persuasive, except that I have never seen a shred of evidence that any such study was actually done. I am pretty convinced it is nothing more than an internet rumor, but lots and lots of people take it as fact and people absolutely believe it happened and that anybody who uses a slip collar on his/her dog is injuring it. Head halters, too, have their supporters and people who say that they are horrible and dangerous and should NEVER be used. But where are the articles by veterinary neurologists noting a huge increase in neck injuries on dogs walked on head halters? And who can forget shock collars?

At any rate, I expect there will soon be a contingent of people trashing "newtrix" collars and telling us why they are dangerous and horrible. Whatever.

My take on all of this is that most of the standard training aids can be helpful and only rarely (and with a combination of unbelievable stupidity and/or cruelty and/or very bad luck) can they be dangerous to dogs in a way that threatens the dog's life or permanent health. Bad training can psychologically damage a dog, of course, but that can happen on a buckle collar or no collar at all. Pretty much ALL these collars work because they are aversive. (the prong collar advocates love to say that prongs just "communicate" with the dog--uh, yeah, they communicate in a way that leaves little red spots...) . I am sure that the newtrix collar is aversive to the dog, too. A lot of preference for one method over another is based on what the human finds less objectionable, not what the dog does. Note how lots of "positive only" people think a collar that sprays citronella in a dog's face for nuisance barking is just lovely, whereas they think that a collar that shocks the dog briefly when he barks is unbelievably cruel. This is because THEY would rather be sprayed with citronella than shocked, not because there is any evidence that dogs wouldn't prefer a brief shock to having their unbelievably senstive noses assaulted by noxious chemicals that linger even after the barking has ceased.

[OntarioGreys]

Dr. Gary Landsberg - Highly esteemed veterinary behaviorist, at Doncaster Veterinary Clinic - one of approximately 30 certified veterinary behaviorists in North America by the American Veterinary Association. He will recommend a trainer to work with as well if necessary
http://www.doncasteranimalclinic.com/


Dr. Susan Simmons - Simmons is one of only three applied animal behaviourists in Canada
Heartland Pet Hospital
5950n Rodeo Drive
Mississauga, ON
Phone: (905)501-1514

[Prin]

Originally Posted by Cygnet

I am not familiar with the "newtrix" collar. I am familiar with the cycle that the reputation of training aids typically follow: First there is a highly enthusiastic contingent of people recommending the new aid's use. Then there are people who come and say how they are bad, and cause permanent physical harm or psychological damage or warts or something. There is a big backlash, usually NOT based on any real evidence of a lot of dogs being hurt. For example, remember the supposed "study in Germany" that demonstrated that slip collars cause tracheal damage in dogs? It is very persuasive, except that I have never seen a shred of evidence that any such study was actually done. I am pretty convinced it is nothing more than an internet rumor, but lots and lots of people take it as fact and people absolutely believe it happened and that anybody who uses a slip collar on his/her dog is injuring it. Head halters, too, have their supporters and people who say that they are horrible and dangerous and should NEVER be used. But where are the articles by veterinary neurologists noting a huge increase in neck injuries on dogs walked on head halters? And who can forget shock collars?

At any rate, I expect there will soon be a contingent of people trashing "newtrix" collars and telling us why they are dangerous and horrible. Whatever.

Actually the neck injuries were not for haltis but for gentle leaders. There's a difference there. Gentle leaders turn the head, and can cause injuries to the cervical spine. Since the newtrix doesn't turn the head, I'm pretty sure that won't be a factor.


As for citronella vs shock, who is saying citronella is great? You can't really make general statements like that because you don't have any supporting evidence really.

So risking permanent injury for a dog is ok, because the ends justifies the means?

I said it before and I'll say it again: unless you have been shown how to use a prong properly, please don't use it.

[phoenix]

Cygnet I'd recommend that you BECOME familiar with something before you comment on it.

The newtrix works by applying pressure behind the ears. The natural response to pressure there is to back into it to release it. When the dog pulls forward, the sensation/tightening is felt; when the dog moves back into the pressure, it releases. It's not the same as metal spikes, or chain, or anything that causes torsion. I can't see it causing injury in any way, and that's why I chose it (educated AND experienced choice, by the way).

My trainer recommended a prong for Sam. I refused and did the class with the Newtrix. All the other dogs were in prongs (including a dog-aggressive dobie). I'm glad that I did; Sam was comfortable and compliant and I can't say the same for the others. But at least their owners were getting training on how to use it properly.

[rainbow]

Good post, Phoenix.

[jesse's mommy]

Thank you Phoenix.

[LL1]

Please don't use a Prong.

Try asking Dobe rescue in Ontario who they suggest as trainers and behaviorists and get some hands on help.

animal_guardian_@hotmail.com

ausleben@rogers.com members.rogers.com

dobermanrescue@hotmail.com

korevaar@execulink.com

and by phone
Kathy Asling 905-263-8247
Heather Cole 905-797-3087
Sheila Summers 416-247-3679
Mary Korevaar 519-462 -1364

[Cygnet]

I probably shouldn't reply to this since, as they say, I don't have a dog in this fight. I don't even much like prong collars. But I still have never seen any good evidence that prong collars cause serious, much less "permanent" injuries to dogs in any significant numbers. Like haltis and gentle leaders and choke collars and every other training device I have ever heard of, prong collars have their detractors and their advocates. But where is the hard evidence of all the permanent injuries caused by prong collars?

Perhaps this is because everybody who uses a prong collar has had proper instruction beforehand? Of course, we know that isn't true. People buy them at Petsmart because they worked on Uncle Joe's rottweiler without ever having been near an obedience class/instructor. And (I've heard tell) even people who HAVE been to obedience classes frequently don't do what they are told to do.

Anyway, I am done with this except to link to this article to show claims about the potential for injuries for head halters (and yes, it is all kinds of head halters, not just Gentle Leaders). http://www.flyingdogpress.com/prong.html Note this author is strongly implying that there is LESS potential for physical harm to dogs with prongs than with head halters. At least she doesn't cite to the "study in Germany" where 100 dogs were necropsied and virtually none of the prong collar trained dogs had injuries and virtually all of the slip collar trained dogs had injuries. Lots and lots of dog trainers know all about that "study" and tell their students about it. The only problem is that I can't find any evidence any such study exists and that it isn't just a complete fabrication.


Again, I am not endorsing the views expressed by Ms. Clothier. I am just linking to this to show the diversity of opinion about training aids.

And I hope Nick's dog survives, whatever he chooses to do with him.

[Prin]

First of all, the article in your link is the wrong one. Second, the article on head halters is about gentle leaders:

Originally Posted by head halter through the article Cygnet posted

What horrified me was the number of people (remember, these are professional trainers and serious dog folks!) who would simply stop at a booth, allowing the dog to drift ahead until he reached the end of the lead and then had his head brought sharply to one side.

Third, more than half of that article was about dogs looking depressed in a halti and how when exchanged for an untightened prong a dog looks happier. And? It takes a dog a while to get used to having a halti on, just as it takes time to get them to get used to having a leash on in the beginning. A lot of dogs don't take well to leashes the first time they're clipped to one. Should we switch to off-leash, because the dog looks much happier right away?

Originally Posted by Cygnet

But I still have never seen any good evidence that prong collars cause serious, much less "permanent" injuries to dogs in any significant numbers.

Can you describe your field of work that allows you contact with so many dogs?

I could say too that "I've seen GREAT evidence that prongs can be used abusively" because every time my big dog sees one he drops to the ground and whimpers and promptly throws up. Sure, my sample size isn't big, but at least I'm open about it.

[phoenix]

Prin I seem bound to argue with you tonight! I don't mean to. However, evidence doesn't have to be first hand experience.

I think it is true that properly used prongs cause less damage than chokes, I can't remember where I read that but I'm pretty sure. I don't care enough to check though.

But to side with you, as I stated earlier, the newtrix is not the same as a gl or a halti, the action is completely different. And if you think a dog looks unhappy in a halter you should see a foal (horse) in one for the first time. Look out!

[BMDLuver]

Lol Phoenix, I was thinking the same thing about the foal...

I also looked at the newtrix and it's pretty much the same gimmick as you would put on a horse putting pressure on it's poll.. I've seen many horses twist around to fight to get out so I would think the dog would and could do the same thing.. I would be worried about vertebrae misalignment from that attempt. Not saying it's going to happen but that I could see it happening with a high spirited dog.

As with any training tool... use with supervision and be informed of the possible risks... even on the newtrix they warn to wear a second collar in case the dog pulls backwards and slips out of it.. so that would mean a double leash would be a good idea as well.

I don't think there's a simple solution for this Dobe but to enroll with one of the trainers LL1 recommended and learn the correct methods to train him.

[Prin]

Prin I seem bound to argue with you tonight! I don't mean to. However, evidence doesn't have to be first hand experience.

No but it has to come from somewhere. Right?

The bottom line is, see a trainer.