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Old October 4th, 2009, 11:32 AM
Rottielover Rottielover is offline
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Please help !!! Last night he went off

Harley has very high prey drive, mixed with fear aggression towards dogs. I would like to see what anyone can tell me to do, because other than walking with a muzzle I am at a loss.
Just yesterday I was walking both dogs, Harley was at a complete heel as he was trained to do. Then out of the blue a dog started walking towards us. I was relaxed, then he went off like a mad dog. I mean full throttle I will kill the dog if I got loose. All the training in the world could not get him to un focus. You see on top of the aggression, he was diagnosed with OCD, so once focused, he does not release his focus. I had no choice but to grab him by the collar, and block him.
While holding him by the collar he was strangling himself, and still would not release the focus. The guy with the dog went the other way thank god, and after 30 secs he decided to release.
I hated to have him hanging like what he did to himself, but was this or him taking me to the pavement and kill that dog.
His logic is the best defense is a good offense.
We have seen many trainers, and while in the class he is great, he focuses on the job to do, outside the class room complete opposite if he sees a dog.
I would like to see how I should have handled that situation because redirection, calm assertive, blocking, did not work
As of last night, he will be walked only with a basket muzzle.
For all the trainers out there, how would you handle a dog like that. In the home or enclosed areas he is great, controllable, even with another male, just OB and separation. Outside Nothing works, his fear of being attacked again is too great.
Just so you know, he has been in OB trials, and well as ongoing Ob in the house and out. Help ! I am at a loss right now and still feel really bad for the way I handled last night.
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Old October 4th, 2009, 11:37 AM
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Sorry, can't offer any advice, but was curious if he is reading something in the dogs he seems to really want to go after, and if he not only has a fear of a dog attacking him, but more so of a dog attacking you and if your daughter is with you, her too?
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Old October 4th, 2009, 11:50 AM
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I'm not a trainer so my advice is limited, but you should absolutely not feel guilty for how you handled it! You did what you had to do to keep everyone safe, and you used all your knowledge and the best possible methods first.

Kailey has very similar isues and reacts to a lot of dogs in the same way (when she is on leash). We've found the use of a Halti calmed her nerves amazingly well. Also, although I don't like to rely too much on food incentives the only thing that breaks her focus when she is in that zone is yummy treats. If she flips out, we use treats to focus her on sits, downstays, give paw etc. until the other dog is gone and she calms down.

I don't know, you may have been through these methods before

But please don't beat yourself up over it. I don't know the whole story but it sounds like your boy has come a very long way with you and you've clearly put in a tonne of effort to help him. You should be proud of that!
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Old October 4th, 2009, 12:27 PM
Rottielover Rottielover is offline
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I have tried the gentle leader, seemed to make everything worse . I was told to watch for his body language, which I have many times in the past, but this person was not expected, turned towards us around a corner, I had no time to react before he did.
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Old October 4th, 2009, 01:02 PM
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Rottielover, I'm not a trainer, so ask them too, but something you said made me wonder. You say he's fine in class because he has a job. Could you give him a job for the walk, besides heeling? Maybe pulling something?
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Old October 4th, 2009, 01:35 PM
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Rottielover - do you know what kind of breed the other dog was? If you aren't sure of the breed - what did the dog look like? Was the dog leading his owner, or respectfully by his side?

First of all, don't feel bad or discouraged about how you handled the situation. Rehabilitating a dog like Harley takes time, and often in a situation that you encountered with a dog surprising both of you - many dogs would become quite alert. His reaction is quite understandable, considering his history.

In my honest opinion, Harley needs serious rehabilitation with other calm and sound-minded dogs. He needs to be desensitized to situations like what you came across, with dogs that won't instigate him and won't react to his anxiety in a group situation. Obedience classes are 'good' to a point. Are you able to contact a behaviorist who will be able to work with Harley outside of your home in normal everyday situations with other calm dogs?

I love ownedbycats suggestion to give him a job. Have you ever tried putting a pack on Harley and having him carry some water bottles?

In the meantime, I would highly reccomend removing and blocking Harley at this point in his training whenever you see another dog approaching. Don't even wait to watch his body language or to see if he will react. The purpose is to just not give him a chance - period. Do this even for people passing without a dog, bikes, joggers, etc. Bring a squeaky toy along for distraction, so that if he begins to show more focus on the person approaching you can re-direct even if he seems calm.

Keep up the great work, I know it can be hard working with a dog with this type of behavioral tendancy.
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Old October 4th, 2009, 02:52 PM
Rottielover Rottielover is offline
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Thank you very much Bailey for answering. I have put on the back pack, it works wonders with bikes and such, but dogs, he does not care . He has had so many reactions with other dogs, small, med, large, there is no trigger. He seems to be a lot worse around dogs that are in front, I believe he does not trust the person behind the dogs leash to control, which makes him very anxious.
That is a great idea about walking in opposite directions when I see the dog, but sometimes there is no time before he sees it. I have tried food, toys, nothing works when he gets in the trance, and the trance is instant. As soon as he smells another dog, especially across the street he starts to react. It is hard to believe that I had this dog so controlled at one point he came to a dog walk with many many dogs 2 years ago, now I can not even walk across the street from another dog.
You should see the stress on his body even when he hears another dog in a home barking.
I walked him today at lunch and the muzzle even makes him more nervous, I feel so bad for him.
He was great with other dogs at one point, Even had him visit Frenchy's with Sam, Bailey, Nelly, he was great.
Hyper dogs are a hell no near him, large males, small dogs face to face he is ok, not across the street.
Bailey I wish you were here....
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Old October 4th, 2009, 05:18 PM
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Lyrical44 Lyrical44 is offline
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I am not a dog trainer at all, I have nooo luck training Bennie, but I did have a great dane/newfie, and she used to be GREAT with other dogs, but one day my silkie/pom scared her, and she attacked, the silkie/pom was allright, just a bloody nose and a little nick on the noggin, but after that Chloe was a different dog completely. She would approach dogs with more caution, got bit by a cocker spaniel, and bit him back, again a bloody nose and a nick on the noggin, but it was a great deal of help to me to have my ex with me when I had her outside.

What throws me off is that your dog doesnt get distracted once he sets into his trance, I always found that Chloe would sense my distress even if I was calm, and she would redirect her attention to me, and act ashamed of her actions. The only thing that kept her from violence was my presence after that.

Muzzles made her nervous too, she just didnt understand them. In order to help her adjust to the muzzle I would put it on her at home, and interact with her, strokeing her ears and forehead, and she seemed to calm, and not even notice the muzzle, so maybe that would help you?

Does he interact allright with dogs he knows? Chloe was fine with Bennie, because he was her pup, and she was really good with my moms small dogs, with the exception of the one incident with the silkie/pom. Is there any dogs in your neighbourhood who you could enlist for help?

Possibly, and this is just a suggestion, you could have Harley in your front yard, and have neighbours walk their dogs past, and show your puppers that there is no harm in them? I dont know, this helped with Bennie's unconditional fear of men, we had people he didnt know approach him, and let him adjust to them on his own, with my supervision.

I am so glad you arent thinking of giving up on your puppers, I had Chloe rehomed, and felt like a real dweeb, but I knew I couldnt handle the situation properly, and my neighbours wanter her euthanized, which I just wouldnt do.
Kudos to you for all the effort you are willing to put into Harley. My good wishes go to you for success
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Old October 4th, 2009, 05:46 PM
Rottielover Rottielover is offline
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No matter what happens Harley will never be re homed, if I found it too dangerous, imagine him in the wrong hands . He is ok with dogs he knows, a little stressed but controllable.
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Old October 4th, 2009, 09:45 PM
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Have you tried a pinch collar? I owned a Rottie awhile back. She has passed on. I loved that breed so much. She also went through obedience. I also teach obedience. You must continue with taking Harley for walks as he isn't going to learn if you don't put him through the exercises, and face the problem. I know their are alot of people against the pinch collar/prong collars. But when you have a big breed like this doing this type of behavor you really need one. Continue to watch his body language when you see another dog coming. You need to teach the leave it! command. Use your most meanest voice when giving it. Do not pull back on the lead but give a good hard pop, when your Rott starts to go nuts. Continue to walk fast past the other dog. Don't stop if you can. Get him past as quickly as you can. Keep your head even though I know this is hard when your trying to handle a 100lb dog. If walking past the dog is to much of a problem, then turn and go the other way. Do you have an obedience trainer from your class that could come and walk with you and recreate the behavor and help you that way? You can't give up on this one. You need to practice this over and over to get harley past it. Don't give up. I will be watching this post. Please let us know how you and your Rottie work this out. Sending hopes for you.
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Old October 5th, 2009, 05:37 AM
Rottielover Rottielover is offline
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Been there done that Katb, he is walked with a prong. When he goes in the trance, all the popping in the world can not snap him out of it. He knows the leave it, drop it, sit stay 30 mins, down stay 30 mins, heel. You name it he knows it, and everything works until he hears or sees a dog. Hears easy to control, sees not so much. I have now started taking 1 dog at a time out again. I am thinking about getting a remote citronella collar, but if hard prong pops, and hanginging off the ground like he did to himself 2 nights ago did not phase him, I do not know if this would work.
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Old October 5th, 2009, 06:02 AM
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I've never seen Ceasar do a Canadian show. I would write to the shows producers to see if you and Harley might be a candidate for a show.

In the meantime, I think you handled it the best you could, so don't go blaming yourself. You're learning along with him. I have no idea how to get him to not focus. Will he bite you while being this aggressive?

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Old October 5th, 2009, 06:03 AM
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Melinda Melinda is offline
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when my lab/rotti/gr dane was dog aggressive it was suggested that we "double" leash her, I used a harness and we clipped two leashes onto it, one on each side, when another dog would come along and she was start freaking out we had double control, daughter would hold tight on the one side ( a quick jerk) and hold her there, while I would control the other side...is there another adult you could walk with to help?
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Old October 5th, 2009, 12:14 PM
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RL, first and foremost - I am SO glad Harley is with you. You understand his reactions and you're doing a great job with him. As hard as it is to see him like this, just remember that he's thriving in your home. In many other places, with other people or with another family, he would not have such a happy, loving, or understanding environment.

Dog aggression is a difficult thing to work with, especially with the level that it sounds like you're dealing with.

Quote:
Hyper dogs are a hell no near him, large males, small dogs face to face he is ok, not across the street.
Very normal. Hyper dogs can frustrate/annoy any dog, and especially in a dog with inter-dog aggression.

Do you feel that his aggression is more insecurity, or a need to control his environment? Does he mark while you're on walks with him?

Have you tried changing the pace of his 'outings' - instead of walking for 20 minutes, what about trying to jog with him? Or riding a bike? Force him to run, which forces a dog to focus on moving forward instead of having the chance to take the time to actually get into 'alert mode' to the extent that Harley is.

With the black lab I'm working with now, the owners are now in the habit of putting on the leash, and jogging with her the second they're out the door. They make it interesting, taking her around poles and trees, over benches, etc. They stop heading in one direction and turn back the way they came for a few steps, they run up and down any stairs to buildings or apartments or bridges.The key is to put the dogs focus on where they are going rather than what is 'coming'.
Sometimes 'distraction' needs to come in a much different way than blocking or using toy/treat...we have to physically take their mind away from any bad experiences and make the walks new and fun.

Just out of curiosity - with the prong - did someone show you how to use it? How does Harley do in it?
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Old October 5th, 2009, 12:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Melinda View Post
when my lab/rotti/gr dane was dog aggressive it was suggested that we "double" leash her, I used a harness and we clipped two leashes onto it, one on each side, when another dog would come along and she was start freaking out we had double control, daughter would hold tight on the one side ( a quick jerk) and hold her there, while I would control the other side...is there another adult you could walk with to help?
Sorry Melinda, I have to respectfully disagree with this kind of training. I highly discourage people from using/relying on leashes to control a dog. This causes SO much tension/anxiety in an animal and often with interdog aggression makes cases much worse. Supressing a behavior is not fixing it.

Quote:
If walking past the dog is to much of a problem, then turn and go the other way.
I don't want to be so disagreeable here, I just also don't agree with this either. Interdog aggression in Harleys case is incredibly serious. Turning him and walking him the other way while the dog is still approaching from behind will most likely make him feel like he's being put in an insecure and vunerable position. Not to mention it can give a dog the impression that whenever a dog approaches, 'flight' is taken from the owner.

RL, are you able to take Harley to visit Frenchys crew more often??
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Last edited by Bailey_; October 5th, 2009 at 12:26 PM.
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Old October 5th, 2009, 12:49 PM
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One thing is for sure I would be continue walking with a muzzle. Rotties are one of the most difficult dogs to read. Their bodies do not say much, but their eyes are expressive. Walking along side them puts us in a disadvantage as we cannot see their face.

I have had one dog that was explosive to train and that was a presa canario. She challenged me like there was no tomorrow. What I did was very simple. She was muzzled and I trained her non stop. There was no letting up as I had to get this under control immediately.

The circumstances are different as you have already established a relationship with your dog. Because you are this far, then you know where his strengths and weakeness are as you do your own. I would be taking walks in low animal walk areas first. I would not try to avoid another dog, infact, after this is mastered I look for high traffic dog areas. Keep moving forward, don't stop for chit chats, keep looking straight ahead and do not use your voice at all when correcting if he turns his head. Check quickly the dog and then when he responds correctly, just put your hand under his chin caressing twice, bringing the chin upward. He will understand by this gesture he has done good.

It is possible that you will never have that perfect boy. He may never be trusted with other dogs fully. What you want to do however is re-establish yourself with him. Teach him all over again...start all over and be consistant.
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Old October 5th, 2009, 01:46 PM
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It sounds like you have done a good job but he needs even more. You have a good foundation in your relationship but he doesn't trust other large dogs or that you are able to keep him safe. You need to work with him so that he looks to you first before he reacts. This means a ton of practice. This is the kind of dog that needs to be mentally exhausted daily not just physically worn out by carrying heavy packs. I know the packs can subdue the dog but they don't really teach him anything.

Muzzles are great to help keep everyone safe so keep that going.

I think you need to figure out where the missing link is. How good is this dog over all? How big is his vocabulary? It should be 30-40 words. Every action he can perform has a name and hand signal, every toy has a name, every room in the house has a name. You need to use his vocabulary through out the day not just during training sessions.

Next how good is he at 4 different levels? 1) Inside the house? 2) Just outside your door? 3) At distances 10 feet, 20 feet, 50 feet. and 4) with distractions - building from lowest level to other dogs.

He needs to work on his impulse control and learn to look to you for advice on everything. You have to start with small distractions and work from there.

We had a 3 yr. GSD here last week that had been to 6 other trainers in Colorado and Utah and she had level 10 dog aggression. We were their last shot. They did the first 2 hour session with us and then we went outside to present her with some dogs and see how she did. I even had a video camera out to film the transformation. Turns out there was nothing worth filming. Where she would typically begin lunging and attacking at the sight of another dog, she was well mannered and calm. There was not one bad moment - her people were shocked & thrilled. I say this only to let you know that while all dogs are different even the worst can make huge changes in a short time with clear communication & a balanced relationship with their leader.

We have drills that we do that teach all of this. Unfortunately it would be like writing a book to put it all down for you. Please feel free to call us (9 am-9 pm Colorado time) and we can see if we can talk you through some of this.
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Old October 5th, 2009, 02:13 PM
BenMax BenMax is offline
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Excellent advice as usual Tenderfoot.

I have to add that I had a dog that was very aggressive with people and other dogs (Max). I had him for 11 years and had to work on his commands every day. There was not one day that we did not work on issues and I always made sure that he was sharp and responded to me at all times. He was never allowed to get away with anything.

I eventually was able to go to dog parks with him, but he never ever trusted men except for my dad. (Max was shot and beaten with a shovel by his 'owner'). I understood his aggression, but I never accepted it. We were forever work in progress but there was a light at the end of the tunnel.
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Old October 5th, 2009, 04:26 PM
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Rottielover,I never knew Harley was dog-aggressive,you and him have been through so many ups and downs over the years and he's great with Roxy and the cats
I know nothing in the world would make you give up on beautiful Harley,he's your soul-mate and understandably so.
I hope there is a solution that will help you and Harley
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Old October 5th, 2009, 05:26 PM
Rottielover Rottielover is offline
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Hi guys, I really appreciate all the help. To answer some of the questions.

Harley has always been on the prong after 8 months old, except for a trial basis with the gentle leader and harness.

He has been in OB classes with me since he was a young pup. We have also competed in some fun ob trials.

I was shown how to use the prong even before using it on him because I was very weary about it. By a trainer who uses it herself.

Just before Harley turned 8 months I did the worst move, I went to a secluded dog park, there was no one in there at the time, so I was throwing the ball. After about 10 mins a guy with a young dog, just a little older than Harley asked if it was ok to enter. I said NP. They were playing fine first 5 mins. As I watched in Horror, the mans dog went for Harley’s throat, would not let go. I ran over panicking while the a$%$& just stood and watched.

Harley was trying so hard to come to me, but the dog would not release, blood started flowing from Harley’s neck.

I had winter boots on and thought of the only thing I could think of. Kick the attacking dog. As I was fighting for Harley, the man just watched. Finally with one last kick to the top of the head, dog released and sat down.

I grabbed Harley who was bleeding from the throat, picked up a 80 lb dog, rushed him to my car. We went straight to my vet. 6 stitches or so later, and pain killers he was going to be physically fine.

Never again was he mentally sound. I reported the a&^%*&^% and the city said there was another complaint launched about the guy, he and his dog were never allowed to step into a park again.

After he healed, I focused only on OB with him, needed control. That is how we started competing.

He was doing very well for almost 2 years, then a loose dog, friendly as it was ran straight to him. Wanted to play, but Harley panicked. Been going downhill, and getting worse since.

I do not drive for the next 9 months, Can not get to Frenchy’s, even if I could, honestly I do not trust him. All it would take is one dog barking at him, then dooms day.

I brought him to my best friends place, she has a large male and female altered dogs, wanted to work on him, let him know all dogs are not bad. Well big mistake, he was fine with the female, the second the male came anywhere near him he grabbed his neck, tight hold. I told him to drop it, he did, I then separated them. After 30 mins, we did it again, more supervision, let them know a time out can cool them off. Harley was stressed, pacing whining, and the other dog started challenging him with eye contact. Before anything happened we separated them.

The only dog he seems to be ok with is my neighbors 7 month old rott lab puppy. He has watched him grow, and the owner has complete control over his pup, which reassures him.

Ok so long story, I am not giving up on him, even if it will mean walking him alone and with a muzzle. By the way, he just turned 5
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Old October 5th, 2009, 05:52 PM
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Oh rottie, poor Harley . Why would that $hithead allow his dog to play with Harley, knowing his dog was a danger

It sounds like he wanted his dog to fight
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Old October 5th, 2009, 06:55 PM
Rottielover Rottielover is offline
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I am not dwelling on what happend, I am trying to bring him into present. Bailey it is def insecurities, far based, a good offense is a great defense is his logic

Next how good is he at 4 different levels? 1) Inside the house?( he is amazing inside the house, all around great loving obedient dog) 2) Just outside your door? Once again no issues at all, if anything too friendly with people3) At distances 10 feet, 20 feet, 50 feet. and 4) with distractions - building from lowest level to other dogs.
I can have him at a down stay 30 mins outside with people, cars bikes and such, as soon as he hear a dog, smell another, especially sees, OMG dr jeckle mr hyde Hope this helps.
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Old October 6th, 2009, 06:40 AM
Rottielover Rottielover is offline
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Tenderfoot, I am going to call you tonight.....
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Old October 6th, 2009, 08:53 AM
BenMax BenMax is offline
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Once Maddox is better Rottielover - we are going to get together...yes with our dogs. Maddox has a very calm and quiet demenour. My mom's dane is like your Harley and yet with Maddox (first time in 5 years) he accepted Maddox without incident. Maddox detected the aggression and he lay down at the dane's feet. Very interesting to watch this. The dane's disposition changed completely and we even went into the back yard together. They both respected each other's space. What do you think?

Indeed - call Tenderfoot!
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Old October 6th, 2009, 09:50 AM
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Keep us posted RL!! Thinking of you both!
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"If you are a dog and your owner suggests that you wear a sweater. . . suggest that he wear a tail."

Bailey (Labradoodle)
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  #26  
Old October 6th, 2009, 12:28 PM
Rottielover Rottielover is offline
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Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,799
I have met maddox, if Harley feels no threat from Maddox . I do not know if it is the dogs he is fearful of, or the person behind the leash, but then again he went after my friends dog and there were no leashes.
I just order aggression by Brenda Aloff the work book.
The only problem BM I can not get to you .
On another side note, I had a very long conversation with Doug, Tenderfoot's Husband who also is a trainer, let me tell you a wake up to reality. Everything he says makes sense. It is way too long to report all he said but there were a lot of truth's behind what he said, and the main thing is my dog does not 100% trust me. I am his security blanket, but he does not trust me . I feel horrible for setting up up for failure, so I will take all this new found knowledge and start asap, including getting back what we lost, trust.
BM, If it can be possible to borrow you and Maddox sometime that would be great, once you are both up to it of course.

Last edited by Rottielover; October 7th, 2009 at 07:05 AM.
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  #27  
Old October 7th, 2009, 07:07 AM
Rottielover Rottielover is offline
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Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,799
Oh yes before I forget Harley has a vet apt next Tuesday for a thyroid test. I know he is great at the vets, no fear or anxiety there even with the many dogs.
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  #28  
Old October 7th, 2009, 10:07 AM
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katb katb is offline
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Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Quincy,Il.
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rottielover, Harley isssss in the best place. With you. After reading his horrifing attack. OMG! No wonder. It sounds to me that you are committed to helping your dog. God Bless you. And keep trying with Harley.
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  #29  
Old October 7th, 2009, 10:34 AM
BenMax BenMax is offline
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Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 10,187
RottieLover - don't worry about coming to me - I will come to you. Once Maddox is up to it - we will be there.

I think Tenderfoot may be right. Also a good exercise is getting Harley acquianted with a dog like Maddox as it will show him that there is nothing to get all excited over. Maddox is going to be my training partner for the time being as he is calm, confident and stable. His interaction with all dogs is amazing. He knows exactly what to do and does not engage in any disputes. He maintains an even balance and does not react to dogs that misbehave. I have to tell you - I even see a huge difference in Julia.

I think if he is around a balanced dog he may react the same. I think it's worth a try.

Please check with Tenderfoot if this is a good idea first. I do not want to confuse matters as you are in excellent hands.
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  #30  
Old October 7th, 2009, 12:09 PM
Rottielover Rottielover is offline
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Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,799
They think it is a good idea, I will explain on the phone the details that Doug would like me to do with Harley and such with another dog. As of tomorrow morning Harley will be attached to me full time, except work and sleep. The reason I say tomorrow is, my energy is so low, and so much to process, Harley will pick up on it, So Doug agreed....
BM I appreciate your help with Maddox, as well as everyone else who is trying to point us in the right direction. Main thing here seems to be the trust issue.
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