Need Some Feedback Please...Penny

[luckypenny]

I need help brainstorming . We don't think Penny is well. The past two nights, it's taken us quite some encouraging and plenty of bribes to get her into the house from the garage. I have to escort her to my bed where she'll lay right up tight between dh and myself for the entire night. She spends about 15 minutes panting before settling and falling asleep. First thing in the morning, she wants back into the garage. While calling her in the house, she tucks her tail and lays on her back. She's also enjoying massages which really wasn't her thing in the past.

Her energy level is down, her fur is not as shiny as it used to be, her mouth always seems wet (slight drool), she's being very submissive with us, and dh said she stuck to him like glue all day today. Her favorite game is chasing her Cuz....but she only goes after it once or twice now and then lays down with her head on her paws. Something else I noticed this evening that I thought was really odd....we went outside, I tossed the Cuz, she wasn't interested. She peed, took a few steps away, then returned to her pee and spent about 2 minutes just sniffing it. She walked a few feet away again, returned once more for another sniff, then just laid down next to it with her head on her paws . I also noticed her head is looking "bonier," if that makes sense. I was talking to Frenchy and she suggested I weigh her...Penny's lost 5lbs in one month. Lucky and Nukka also spend time running around the yard sniffing out her pee (they did this too after the fight) .

The weird thing is, is that we tested her for everything under the sun (thyroid, CBC, superchem, platelet count, tick borne disease, eyes, and x-rays of neck, back, hips, and legs) and everything keeps coming back normal. The vets could find nothing wrong with her. I'm going to try to bring in a urine sample to the vets tomorrow morning and make an appointment for early next week.

Could this just be the result of stress from the fight, even though it's been a month and a half since it happened? Thing is, when she's on antibiotics and painkillers (both after the fight and after the surgery to remove her broken teeth), she's almost back to normal. Is that just a coincidence? She's been off meds for the past 9 days and we've been noticing changes again the past two to three days. Our gut feeling is saying something is really off but test results keep coming back normal. What else should I be asking the vet to test for, or to re-test?

I should mention that her appetite is excellent and her stools are normal.

[14+kitties]

I sure can't give you any advice except to go with your gut. In most cases it isn't far off. There had to have been some reason behind that fight. Maybe something was just getting started but Ava sensed it?

Good luck mf. The last thing you need is more stress.

[hazelrunpack]

Gol dang, LP! It just never ends

Can your vet send the xrays out to an orthopedic specialist for evaluation? Skeletal abnormalities can be very hard to spot on xrays--we've been amazed at how much more the specialists see than our regular vets. If there's something causing her pain, you'd expect to see the backslide once she came off the pain meds...which you did.

I'm glad you're taking in a urine sample. Our guys often let us know someone is sick from their behavior--the sick one pees and there is a communal sniffing reaction. It's strongest for UTIs, but I'm afraid they also commonly do it for lepto infections. A lot of her symptoms match what we see when there's lepto involved, too. Did they run a lepto titer?

[hazelrunpack]

An afterthought--the tick stuff can be tricky--if you test too soon, before the dog's immune system has mounted a good defense, it can evade detection. You might want to ask the vet if she should be retested for the tick stuff, too.

I hope she's better soon, LP The poor dear has had enough...as have you!

[luckypenny]

No, no lepto titer, Hazel. Parvo, Distemper, and Rabies titers were run.

She'd need another blood test, right? So Lepto (I'm not too familiar with that disease), tick borne disease again, and sending her x-rays out.

I thought at first I was just seeing too much into things and up until today, dh thought I was just being a worry-wart but, he's getting prettied antsy now too. I'll try to get her seen by the vet tomorrow. Do you think it's an emergency? If they don't have room to schedule her in, should I have dh take her elsewhere?

[pugsrule]

So sorry she is under the weather. I do not know her history? But with the sniffing urine spots, and the bony head combined, I would test for diabetes (the weight loss) and cushings. Sometimes a urine test for diabetes will be negative several times in the early stages. All diabetic dogs do not suddenly stop producing insulin all at once. they will sometimes produce a bit here and there, and if they are uder the renal threshold at the time (10 in Canada 180 in US) it wont show up. Blood test is the best.

On the urine, all 8 of my pugs will sniff at my diabetic pug's pee spots if she is running high and has glucose in her urine.

Hope you can get if figured out

Hugs Joan

[hazelrunpack]

Unless she gets suddenly much worse, an emergency visit probably isn't necessary... But for sure I'd try to get her in tomorrow or at least get that urinalysis done, even if she doesn't get seen by the vet till sometime later. Maybe it's just a UTI. Sometimes, if they've been on anti-Bs for something else, our guys come down with a UTI.

So it took about 6 days after you stopped the meds before she started showing these symptoms?

[Goldfields]

The bonier head could mean she has Cushings disease. One of the symptoms is a skeletal head and it was something I had noticed with Sugar, I wondered why her head was not as pretty as it used to be. This is part of an email that was sent to me to show me the symptoms of Cushings, luckypenny, how many fit, and has she been tested for it? Another indication is blackheads on the belly, lots of them.

Symptoms of Cushing's disease can be vague and varied and tend to appear gradually and progressively. It is thus easy to mistake Cushing's disease for normal aging. Additionally, many of the clinical symptoms are not unique to Cushing's and could reflect a number of other health concerns. Below are the "trigger symptoms" for further cushing's testing.

The most common symptoms include:
• increased/excessive water consumption (polydipsia)
• increased/excessive urination (polyuria)
• urinary accidents in previously housetrained dogs
• increased/excessive appetite (polyphagia)
• appearance of food stealing/guarding, begging, trash dumping, etc.
• sagging, bloated, pot-bellied appearance
• weight gain or its appearance, due to fat redistribution
• loss of muscle mass, giving the appearance of weight loss
• bony, skull-like appearance of head
• exercise intolerance, lethargy, general or hind-leg weakness
• new reluctance to jump on furniture or people
• excess panting, seeking cool surfaces to rest on
• symmetrically thinning hair or baldness (alopecia) on torso
• other coat changes like dullness, dryness
• slow regrowth of hair after clipping
• thin, wrinkled, fragile, and/or darkly pigmented skin
• easily damaged/bruised skin that heals slowly
• hard, calcified lumps in the skin (calcinosis cutis)
• susceptibility to infections (especially skin and urinary)
• diabetes, pancreatitis, seizures

[luckypenny]

Joan, would that show up on a blood chemistry?

[luckypenny]

Originally Posted by hazelrunpack

Unless she gets suddenly much worse, an emergency visit probably isn't necessary... But for sure I'd try to get her in tomorrow or at least get that urinalysis done, even if she doesn't get seen by the vet till sometime later. Maybe it's just a UTI. Sometimes, if they've been on anti-Bs for something else, our guys come down with a UTI.

So it took about 6 days after you stopped the meds before she started showing these symptoms?

With a UTI, she'd most likely be urinating more frequently?

6 days is about right. She hasn't been quite right since the fight but was better a couple of days after starting the antibiotics and painkillers.

Goldfields, the first 7 symptoms don't apply to Penny. Neither the last 5. The ones in between, to some degrees.

[cassiek]

LP I don't have much to add, just want to send some good vibes your way and good luck with determining what's wrong with Penny.

[hazelrunpack]

(sorry for the delay...I'm distracted...we just got raided by the bear and we realized while I was out retrieving the suet that it was still out there! )

If she's early in a UTI, she might not be to the point where she's urinating frequently yet.

Steroidal imbalance sure would explain a lot--everything from the lethargy to the aggressive episode to the weight loss... Her glucose was on the lower end of normal, though, in those labs you sent a while back, so I doubt that it's diabetes.

[Dr Lee]

I usually trust dog parent's "guts". With weight loss and behavioral changes with all tests (thyroid, CBC, superchem, platelet count, tick borne disease, eyes, and x-rays of neck, back, hips, and legs) normal - unfortunately I think we need a specialist and likely abdominal ultrasound and possibly MRI of her head. I see a mention of Cushing's disease. You can have normal Alkaline Phosphatase and normal electrolytes and have either atypical Cushings or atypical Addison's - however I would likely touch base with a specialist (i.e. internal medicine or neurologist) to have then evaluate whether adrenal testing is needed. As far as Cushings, when they do an abdominal ultrasound, they will also look at the adrenal size (this is not the best way to look for Cushings but if it isn't high on their list, they can tell you whether the adrenals appear abnormal or not in architexture). I am sorry about this situation. Sometimes a diagnosis is so easy and sometimes it is so exceptionally hard. I do wish you the best and hope that this advice helps.

[Goldfields]

Originally Posted by luckypenny

Goldfields, the first 7 symptoms don't apply to Penny. Neither the last 5. The ones in between, to some degrees.

Sugar didn't have the first 3 or another couple, but she did have an adrenal tumour , thus Cushings disease. From what I have read on the Cushings site, not all dogs get all the symptoms.

[luckypenny]

I have to make a list here because it's getting late and I'm afraid I'm going to forget by tomorrow (not cuz I'm Queen of disorganization or anything ).

I should ask for...

Urine test
Lepto titer
Retest for tick-borne disease
Recheck of blood?? (last done 1 month ago)
Orthopedic specialist to evaluate her x-rays
Referral to internal medicine or neurologist....which one ?
abdominal ultrasound
mri


Should I be doing this in any particular order ?

ETA: Oh, and would she need to be put under for the mri and abdominal ultrasound?

[hazelrunpack]

Holy catz, LP! That'd all cost you a mint!

Urinalysis, yes.

I'd also send out the xrays, just because of some of the other symptoms she had.

I think I'd go for the lepto only if your vet sees a fair number of lepto cases. I pulled up the blood panel from last time and the results just look too normal to make either lepto or tick-borne disease a likelihood. Your vet might want to run another blood panel just to see if there are changes, however

I'd leave the internist/neurologist decision up to your vet--depending on what he sees, he'd have a better idea of which to use.

For the ultrasound and the mri, we'd also likely let our vet decide if, which order, and when. Don't know about the mri and the ultrasound for sure, but unless she's willing to sit still for the technician, she'd likely need at least light sedation.

[Melinda]

with lepto you would see a yellow jaundiced tint to her eyes, her belly would swell (in most cases you don't realize its lepto till this stage), but check her eyes first.

[hazelrunpack]

Would the jaundice occur early-on, Melinda? I've never noticed that in our dogs, but we've always caught the infections in the very early stages and never had any organ involvement. (I hope it stays that way )

[chico2]

LP,just want send you some good vibes and hopes that this frustrating and worrying situation with Penny will bring you some treatable results soon.

[Love4himies]

Oh no, LP , poor Penny. I am not familiar with dogs, but I do know that stress on cats can play havoc on their health, particularly their urinary systems. Being in pain can also lead to weight and muscle loss in cats.

Blood cell counts can indicate an infection in the body and of course a detailed urinalysis can pick up what is going on with overall health, so I would start with those two tests.

Good luck and sending lots of for Penny.

[Melinda]

hazel, I only know when in the later stages...........

[BenMax]

LP - did you have a heartworm test done? If not, check into this. Maddox was very very thin and lethargic. He had that boney head as well due to weight loss. He was very quiet and unusually calm.

I wish you the best dear friend. I am so sorry that you are going through this...again.

PS - if anything I can do please know I will help anyway possible.

[Frenchy]

I hope you were able to take a urine sample this morning LP

hope it's just a UTI

[hazelrunpack]

Good luck today, LP! for Penny!

[ancientgirl]

No advice to offer, just some and for your girl. Hopefully it isn't anything physical she has. Maybe she just needs more time to get over what happened.

Good luck!

[Frenchy]

LP just called me from her work. Urine test came back fine ! Her vet thinks it's stress , so LP will be bringing Penny at the clinic tomorrow for more tests.

Good luck LP and Penny !!!

[free]

hopefully you can get to the bottom of luckys problem. go with your gut.

as for ultrasounds when ollie was alive he had a few for heart problems and even though he was a pain they never sedated him had 2 people plus me hold him. my sisters dog had an ultrasound done here for cushings and again no sedation.

[Melinda]

Daisy (late dog) had 4 ultra sounds a week and she was never sedated, he told me as long as she would stand when asked (they were done on her abdomin)

[ancientgirl]

Originally Posted by Frenchy

LP just called me from her work. Urine test came back fine ! Her vet thinks it's stress , so LP will be bringing Penny at the clinic tomorrow for more tests.

Good luck LP and Penny !!!

Glad the test came back fine. Stress may be something worth investigating. I know the main source of Oksana's UTI issue. At least she can find something to help her with that while she's making sure it isn't anything physical.

[BenMax]

Good luck LP. My thoughts are with you all.