Raw and cancer, new kid - Page 2 - Pet forum for dogs cats and humans

tiOurs · #31 February 29th, 2008, 08:52 PM

oh wise ones please tell me:

1) how do I add a cool signature line like all you guys have?
2) how do I include a quote from another post in the cool box like you all are doing?
3) where do I find answers to these types of questions without bugging you guys?

tiOurs · #32 February 29th, 2008, 08:58 PM

hey I have a big fat question for all you raw feeders. The main reason I've heard that folks don't want to feed raw is because of "deadly" pathogens such as samonella and campylobacter that are picked up in processing plants. A vet told me that he treated a dog that almost died of food poisoning that had been fed raw. So they say I should cook her food a bit to kill such bugs. What do ya'll say about that?

OnelnAMiII25 · #33 February 29th, 2008, 09:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tiOurs

good morning!

It's cold here in north florida! there's frost on the pumpkin-- echhh!!

I put a diet/cancer poll over on the pet recipe thread. I'd sure appreciate if ya'll would wander over there and click on the appropriate button.. I realize we've got mostly raw feeders here.. hopefully some non-raw folks will answer the poll too.

I have a Neopolitan Mastiff with pancreatic innsuffenciy (excuse my spelling). When we first found out, or it actually might be b4 we found out what she had, we tried every type of food for her. She wasn't gaining any weight and her stools were never formed, these were the 1st signs. So we tried the raw diet. Well besides being disgusted from the raw meat and cow insides, it made her (excuse the grossness) have, what we like to call, "greasy farts" She was excreating yellow oil stuff. I'm guessing it was because of her illness. After we found out what she had, we changed her diet to all vegetables and grains. That worked for awhile, but still not gaining any weight (she was 70-75lbs at age 2, when she should have been 120-150) We finally food that the Science Diet perscription WD food worked the best. She's went up to 80lbs (we recently moved from nj with my family to illinois, and she gained 15lbs, she's now 95lbs) She's nice a big now, but she's going thru some skin problems, but thats a whole other story that i've written a thread about.

I know this doesn't give you any insight into the raw diet, but i thought i would share with you. Good luck!!

OnelnAMiII25 · #34 February 29th, 2008, 09:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tiOurs

hey I have a big fat question for all you raw feeders. The main reason I've heard that folks don't want to feed raw is because of "deadly" pathogens such as samonella and campylobacter that are picked up in processing plants. A vet told me that he treated a dog that almost died of food poisoning that had been fed raw. So they say I should cook her food a bit to kill such bugs. What do ya'll say about that?

What about getting the meat from an organic farm... is that an option? Or do those farms have diseases too? Maybe something to look into.

MerlinsHope · #35 February 29th, 2008, 10:14 PM

Quote:

hey I have a big fat question for all you raw feeders. The main reason I've heard that folks don't want to feed raw is because of "deadly" pathogens such as samonella and campylobacter that are picked up in processing plants. A vet told me that he treated a dog that almost died of food poisoning that had been fed raw. So they say I should cook her food a bit to kill such bugs. What do ya'll say about that?

Deadly patogens are everywhere and anywhere.
Please read this... it should answer your questions.

Merlin

OxyMK · #36 February 29th, 2008, 10:56 PM

Hey tiOurs- Where in N. Florida are you? Im in Jacksonville (go jaguars!...sorry couldnt resist

).

growler~GateKeeper · #37 March 1st, 2008, 12:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tiOurs

It's interesting. Maybe it's just a feeling but I don't hear anyone on this forum mentioning all their pets that have died of cancer. I've lost almost seventy five percent of my pets; dogs, cats and a chicken to cancer in the last 10 years and if you go on the cancer forum website many people there have lost multiple pets to cancer.

are you guys here on this website just not talking about it here? or is there something we're doing wrong that you're not telling us??

For me personally I have only had 1 pet out of 6 (both cats & dogs) die of *suspected* cancer - we lost her too soon for definative testing. Hard to say why, same with people, if we knew all the causes we would be so far ahead in prevention/treatment.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tiOurs

oh wise ones please tell me:

1) how do I add a cool signature line like all you guys have?
2) how do I include a quote from another post in the cool box like you all are doing?
3) where do I find answers to these types of questions without bugging you guys?

To add a signature go to the blue navigation bar above the thread listings, click on "User CP", then on the left hand side under "Settings & Options" click on "Edit Signature", it will give you a box to add your sig to

To add a quote from another post you click on the "quote" button in the lower right hand corner of the reply you want to quote...or you can click on the quotation " button on upto 4 replys, like I did here with yours, then click the post new reply button

You can check out the FAQ section, go to the same blue navigation bar, click on "FAQ" there is a list of questions w/answers there

Any more questions - ask away

Quote:

Originally Posted by tiOurs

hey I have a big fat question for all you raw feeders. The main reason I've heard that folks don't want to feed raw is because of "deadly" pathogens such as samonella and campylobacter that are picked up in processing plants.

I'm raw feeding my cat who got Kidney Failure from eating tainted prescription Royal Canin vet food, all the chemicals in non-holistic commercially prepared kibble/canned scares me far more than bacteria that is either killed by freezing or the acid in the stomach.

want4rain · #38 March 1st, 2008, 09:11 AM

Quote:

hey I have a big fat question for all you raw feeders. The main reason I've heard that folks don't want to feed raw is because of "deadly" pathogens such as samonella and campylobacter that are picked up in processing plants. A vet told me that he treated a dog that almost died of food poisoning that had been fed raw. So they say I should cook her food a bit to kill such bugs. What do ya'll say about that?

thats not really a big fat question.

take a look at this site-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hygiene_hypothesis

and also this one-
http://rawfed.com/myths/bacteria.html

im sorry, i was looking for an actual study that showed kibble fed dogs shed salmonella and what kinds of molds are present on the different grains in kibble.

needless to say, harmful bacteria is EVERYWHERE. your bathtub (of which your kids slurp up bath water), your kitchen sink, if which you 'wash' dishes in, OUR dry cereal, breads, the floor your dog licks, who knows what lives in your carpeting...

your car steering wheel.... thats a real doozy!!!

does my dog sometimes get an upset stomach??? yeah... when the silly thing buries chicken in the back yard and its a daytime high of 95f and then eats it two days later. but will it kill him?? unlikely.

the only times you shoudl ever partially cook your meat are when you are trying to trick your dog/cat into eating raw

or if you have a sick puppy, sick senior or a dog/cat have a compromised immune system. feline HIV, for example.

-ashley

CyberKitten · #39 March 1st, 2008, 04:43 PM

I have had seen some older cats who were brought to my grandmother (a dyed in the wool cat lady - amg many other things) die of cancer- and for some reason - and I have no scientific data at all to know why - the most common type of cancer was lymphoma. My guess is that many people discovered their pet was ill and so they brought her/him to gram, saying "I am moving, ill, whatever, ie - some useless excuse) and she took the cat and thus paid the vet bills. She should have been a vet and not a nurse!

I have seen many miracles with chemo - but I work in pediatrics. I have to admit I have not seen many with no chemo but understand if an adult opts to not have chemo - it is their life after all and they need to do what is best for them and their own beliefs and whatever research they have done. I do not want to debate THAT issue - I seem to have done more discussion that I have needed lately (I am supposed to be off work for a few days getting some rest but like many health care professionals, I am not all that goof at listening it would appear, lol)

I do believe we have not done nearly enough (more like next to nothing) in ascertaining the etiology of the carious cancers. We have made great strides in chemo and radiation - and even as a physician, I am not fond of radiation and am anxious to see the results of the long term studies on children who have had chemo and radiation to see how they fare as adults. (ie will the radiation lead to more cancer?) About 20 yrs ago, acute leukemia in a child was a death sentence- six months at the most was the suggest outcome. Now, it is rare I have patient who dies from that dx. If they do, there are complications or the cancer was caught not in time or they developed some infection or some other problem that led to more illness. And we also have better chemo - it is less nauseating and we are better at treating pain- especially in children - than we were as well. I also use guided imagery with some success - especially when I am performing bone marrow transplants, aspirations or other painful or stressful procedures. I took a course on it even tho most of my colleagues scoffed. However, I have an aunt who is a psychiatrist and she promotes therapy over medication and recommended an excellent program. I have read many of the alternative medicine studies and what I wish is that they were more regulated and done in a way that we could compare them more adequately with so called traditional medicine. I used to believe in Linus Pauling's work even before I went to med school - and now there are studies in credible journals (ie ones not funded by drug companies and edited by reputable people in their fields) suggesting Vitamin C does not help prevent cancer after all or even a cold. I still take it- too much won't hurt you but it is just wasting it - and it has few interactions (though some) that are contraindicated with other meds.

I am not as knowledgeable about other alt meds tho I do give my cats Rescue remedy and one - which has been studies extensively in Europe called cocculine - which is an excellent relaxing med. It also works in humans. Cocculine seems to work better than RR for my cats and it is less sedating and I use it very sparingly - mostly for one cat who is not a good traveler. It was great for my bunny when I brought him places during longer vacations but he became a wonderful traveller as well.

I do have one friend who claims her cancer - a form of stomach cancer - was cured by a regimen of alternative meds though she also did some chemo as well just to make sure she got most. She was a Roman Catholic nun and I also think anyone who has a strong will to live or a raison d'etre or cause they believe in - if it is religion or something else- gives one the edge in fighting any illness. I know that has helped me (I have several illnesses and fought cancer successfully twice.) I took the minimum amt f chemo available which is what I discuss with my patients' parents- how aggressive they want to be.

However, all that said, until we as a society get to the root of what is causing cancer- pollution, electromagnetic fields, the many carcinogens that do not even have to be placed by law in Canada on various products (you will find them in many cosmetics, even the pre made salads one sees in stores turn some substances in your body into formaldehyde which is a carcinogen so it is not merely the substances you need to watch for, it is what they do once they interact with other enzymes and products in your body, something not given much thought even by oncologists, sigh!) I refuse to eat anything made at the grocery store that has been pre cooked and is say in the frozen section. I have to assume the bakery is but I prefer to either buy my bread at a health food store or make my own. I grew up in part on a farm so while I lad a busy lifestyle, it does not mean I can take time to make a good meal with nutrients and also do the same for my pets.

As to my dogs and cats and rabbits, only the rescued ones ever died of cancer. My poodle died of heart failure at 17 tho he was under the care of a vet cariologist , our fox terier died at 21 whe n his heart gave out - he had grown old and he had so many issues that we put him to sleep so he would not suffer any more. He'd had one heart attack and had arthritis badly and we did not want him needlessly suffering. My beagle died too young (15), again of a respiratory illness he developed while at the vets recuperating from a broken leg - he was rough housing with a friend and I heard the leg pop. Of course, I still wonder what meds he was given at the vets, sigh. It wa sonly later that he came down with a cold that became pneumonia.

Anyway- I am going on and I do not want to sound like a blathering idiot and you do not need my pets' health records. My bunny died of ileus and for some reason, I am still distraught by that - I feel I should have done more even tho he was the oldest bun in the country at the time (undocumented though - just that he was older than the one documented in the Guinness Book as the oldest domestic bunny in the world, 14- mine was 16). I even wonder if my mom who was visiting gave him too much clover which can kill animals because it has the same effects as warfarin or heparain or way too much ASA - acting like an anti coagulant. But he did not bleed to death - I paid for a necropsy and it was ileus, which is a common cause of death for bunnies.
I did rush back and forth to a specialist at the vet school - a 14 hr trip both ways and he may have lived longer but did I just prolong his agony? He was always happy but lie cats, bunnies hide their pain. Anyway- sorry to go on about him. I am as you can tell not over his death and won't be for awhile. I did become known as the "bunny lady" at my vets though since she was not knowledgeable about buns - which is why I had to seek out a specialist - and thus had to learn so much.

It's great that you are learning more about your dog's illness. If you need any info - I am not expert on dogs' cancer as I said- but have many journals and info but by now, you probably do too. I am glad you have a vet you trust - that is important. Some people often take what they get and do not seek other opinions. Sometimes, well meaning vets - and GP's with humans- incorrectly diagnose cancer but I am sure that does not surprise you. Our system is far from perfect. I do wish every small community had access to good pathologists - ie for doing the tests re diagnosis - (not necropsies et al!!!) - and with video conferencing ,we do but we do not utilize it as much as we should.

I have reads many of the stories of pets with cancer and sponsor a cat at imom.org, a place that pays for people who cannot afford the care their pets often need. Many vets now do bone marrow transplants and many wonderful treatments for animals and the whole area of cancer in dog, cats and rabbits is a growing area. That's good news - not because we are seeing it more, but because it has always been there and we have said "well, it is a pet and should we go this far." To those of us like you who would do anything to save our pets if it means a quality life, we do not even pose the question.

My best to you and Ginger - she is a lucky dog to have you, opinionated and all.

(Most of the time, one has to be opinionated- if I had not been,I am convinced my dad would be dead!)

Sorry for the length - I have alas lived up to my rep as longwinded!

tiOurs · #40 March 3rd, 2008, 12:16 AM

Quote:

Deadly patogens are everywhere and anywhere.
Please read this... it should answer your questions.

Quote:

I'm raw feeding my cat who got Kidney Failure from eating tainted prescription Royal Canin vet food, all the chemicals in non-holistic commercially prepared kibble/canned scares me far more than bacteria that is either killed by freezing or the acid in the stomach.

Quote:

needless to say, harmful bacteria is EVERYWHERE. your bathtub (of which your kids slurp up bath water), your kitchen sink, if which you 'wash' dishes in, OUR dry cereal, breads, the floor your dog licks, who knows what lives in your carpeting... your car steering wheel.... thats a real doozy!!!

This is what has always made sense to me, you all are confirming it. I've been singing raw's praises on the Canine cancer website and sort of arguing (who ME???) with a vet there. "Cancervet" brought up the bit about campylobacter and samonella, says that they get past stomach acid and folks on that website all seem to believe it. Horses carry samonella, when they get stressed or weakened they can get sick from it. I'm sure we're killing ourselves with the disinfectants we use to kill off the bacteria that we, as a species have survived with for thousands (millions?) of years. Horse manure is a delicacy to my girl, dead stuff is the best stuff to eat and she rolls in what's left. And to be honest, maybe I'd rather lose her to food poisoning than cancer. Been there, done that.

Quote:

My bunny died of ileus and for some reason, I am still distraught by that

Some of them just get you that way. I'm still not over my kitty who died of lymphoma almost 10 years ago. I raised a possum named Blossum who I swear I'd have mortgaged the house to keep healthy. they just do it to us. btw possums are very unfairly maligned.

OK time for beddy bye...

growler~GateKeeper · #41 March 3rd, 2008, 12:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tiOurs

And to be honest, maybe I'd rather lose her to food poisoning than cancer. Been there, done that.

Is it better that something avoidable is going to kill her rather than something from unknown origins? I think not.

And unless we can accurately identify all the causes of every cancer - it's not going to be 100% preventable. Food poisoning, when perpetrated by humans, such as my case and thousands like it, was not only preventable it was an unneccessary and avoidable risk to their lives because the people, aside from us their guardians, supposed to care most about our pets (the vets and their food industry) were greedy & negligent in their duty to protect them.

Dying from one is not any worse than the other, in the end they still leave too soon.