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  #61  
Old October 19th, 2006, 11:00 AM
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dtbmnec dtbmnec is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by technodoll
very well put, happycats... extreme cases most often warrant extreme training techniques to get the dog down to a manageable level. it's unfortunate but think of the other option (being PTS because nobody can manage the dog or "train out" the bad behaviors) IMO, the trouble with TV shows... any show... is that most people don't take the context into consideration and try to apply the same techniques on dogs that don't need it... like the "don't try this at home" warnings on some shows and ads, YET there are always folks who ignore this...
There are always ALWAYS going to be a few stupid ones...you can have the smallest population ever and in any given situation ONE of them will be the moron and do the "don't try this at home" stuff...welcome to the Darwin awards

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  #62  
Old October 19th, 2006, 11:59 AM
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Originally Posted by happycats
Yes, Cesar was a little extreme in that case, but the dog was very extreme, and I don't really think anything else would have helped, the dog just wasn't getting it, he was SO obsessed with skateboards.
The repercussions could have been allot worse, the dog could have bitten a skateboarder, and have to be pts or ran out on the road to go after one, and get hit by a car.

When it's a life or death situation, I think sometimes being physical is the only way. What if your little child ran out on the road without looking? Sometimes a spank makes them remember never to do it again, either a spank or getting hit by a car, which would you choose?
To the ends justifies the means? So it's ok to hit my dog, if through hitting him he learns a valuable lesson?

The thing with the skateboards was the dog was ONLY after the skateboard, not the kid on it. They even rolled one alone and the dog chased and attacked it.

What I would have done in his case would have been to inundate him with skateboards. Have them ALL over the house for a bit. Roll them around as you walk by. After a while, he'll be so used to them, he won't even care. And I won't have to hit him.
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  #63  
Old October 19th, 2006, 12:01 PM
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Coppperbelle, grabbing a muzzle and pushing a hiney down aren't kicking. IMO, dogs understand grabbing far more than they understand blunt force of any kind. And the screaming? That was just because the dog had never been dominated in any way his entire life. My dad's dog did that too when I grabbed his neck fur.
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  #64  
Old October 19th, 2006, 12:07 PM
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I have a dog Soozie that is as bad as I have ever seen on a leash. I have had a lot of dogs (foster and my own) and have never been unable to get through to them. She goes absolutely bonkers if she sees another dog on the leash and when bringing in a foster she needs to be introduced properly. If we do see another dog on a walk she absolutely fixates and her little mouth starts going in a crazy mumble. She is terrified to say the least. I have tried a lot of things and consulted behaviourists and trainers as well as done some research to no avail. Let me tell you the only thing that breaks her fixation with the other dog is a little nudge with the foot. She even ignores hot dogs when she get like that. After I nudge her she looks up at me almost gratefully and waits for the treat. Sometimes it is the only way to break that concentration. We have yet another trainer coming, hopefully this week.
While I don't agree with some of the things that he does I do think that Ceasar has helped a lot of people with extreme problem dogs. I also think it is a bit dangerous to show this type of training to people who may not have a problem dog, but think they do. Ceasar's methods may in fact make a good dog worse in all probablility with too harsh of treatment. I wonder if a disclaimer wouldn't help?
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  #65  
Old October 22nd, 2006, 12:37 PM
littlesister littlesister is offline
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Ya, that's what I thought, there are NO trainers around, that are willing to work with an aggressive dog without using any kind of force; choke collars, otherwise euphemistically known as "training collars", pinch collars, or the like. No one knows anyone like that.
I hardly think tapping a dog's behind a little is even as close to the annoyance of having a "training collar" tighten around one's neck.
Yes, truly there would be some Darwin award types that would take his show's style training a little too seriously, and actually kick the dog's butt hard. Even then it wouldn't compare to having one's neck tightened.
I actually tried one of those pinch collars on, to see if it was as brutal as it looked. Quite frankly folks, I'd rather have to wear that all day than a "training collar." Try it, you'll see.

Last edited by Blathach; October 22nd, 2006 at 01:31 PM. Reason: Rudeness will not be tolerated
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  #66  
Old October 22nd, 2006, 01:17 PM
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Did somebody yank your leash repeatedly while you wore that collar?
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  #67  
Old October 23rd, 2006, 12:22 AM
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It's moments like these I am ever grateful that I don't watch television. Cesar sounds very SENSATIONAL (and I mean that in the tabloid headliner-rates-grabbing way, not in the "gee, he's a sensational guy" way).

I don't believe using violence as a "teaching tool" demonstrates anything other than impatience and a willingness to be a bully. In my mind, dogs are unique and each learn differently ~ the underlying method can be the same, the end result should be same but how you get there will be tailored to the learning needs of the dog. Violence as a "teaching tool" instills fear and on some level loathing, not the respect and engagement in learning and above all else trust in me, that I am after when I work with animals.

I really take issue with people who believe that those who choose not to use prong collars and physically aggressive teaching and discipline methods with their dogs, whom others have described as aggressive or behavioural problems, as either not knowing what they are doing or that they don't "really" have aggressive dogs. Working with animals with serious behaviour problems does not produce instant results and that is what too many people think they should get. Facing challenges like these requires a level of creativity that you won't find in the "ABC Guide to Training Your Dog" and is in fact well beyond the abilities of most. Dogs who are aggressive or fearful to the point of posing an imminent threat at all times will not learn unless they are with someone who fully understands and can anticipate exactly what they are thinking and feeling (not what a book says they must be thinking and feeling) and why they are reacting in the ways they react and how they look, smell, move, hear and see when they do react.

I have yet to read a training book that was completely useless, there is always something, no matter how small a lesson, to be learned. I would never subscribe to a single training philosophy either and I put to the real-life challenge all training methods I come across. That is, with the exception of those which employ violent methodology or tools ~ I'm simply not willing to violate the most basic tenet in the relationship that I have with my animals ~ trust.
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  #68  
Old October 23rd, 2006, 12:41 AM
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Great post mummummum. I especially like this bit:
Quote:
Originally Posted by mummummum
Working with animals with serious behaviour problems does not produce instant results and that is what too many people think they should get.
That is so true, but unfortunately both on tv and with a trainer, people do expect instant results. So the trainers break out the "tools" like the prong and hiney boot so that people don't change the channel or feel like they haven't gotten their money's worth, even if in the long run, it's not the best way of getting at a problem. It's a consequence of our ADD afflicted society.
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  #69  
Old October 23rd, 2006, 07:51 PM
littlesister littlesister is offline
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"Did somebody yank your leash repeatedly while you wore that collar?"

No, I put it around my arm and yanked and it wasn't as bad as it looked.

Do you really think being pinched is so much worse than having your airway restricted?
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  #70  
Old October 23rd, 2006, 07:53 PM
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Doesn't the prong do both? It tightens as it pokes.

And I'm sure my doggies wouldn't mind a prong around their legs either.
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  #71  
Old October 23rd, 2006, 07:58 PM
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i find prong collars much more humane than chokers. the blunt prongs simulate a mother's correctional bite on the scruff of the neck, and the pressure is distributed evenly around the neck and not cutting off the windpipe and damaging the delicate throat tissue. NO TOOL works well if not used correctly... but IMO, mis-using a prong collar doesn't cause as much physical damage as mis-using a choke collar. i despise choke collars, and the prongs damage and stain my dog's neck fur so i don't use that anymore, either
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  #72  
Old October 23rd, 2006, 08:24 PM
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TD I'm right there with you on that response. Honey needed the prong to correct Jesse and I fought it as long as I could UNTIL I put it on my arm and realized that when used correctly IT DOESN'T HURT. It just simulates the idea of it. Obviously when it was put on your arm it was not being used correctly, therefore hurt you.
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  #73  
Old October 23rd, 2006, 08:26 PM
littlesister littlesister is offline
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I don't use either one either.
However, for some people that can not actually fulfill the basic function of walking their dogs, as they don't have the strength or proper training, I think it would be a good investment.

Ideally, they'd just run free.
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  #74  
Old October 23rd, 2006, 08:27 PM
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A better investment, IMO, 9 times out of 10 is a newtrix.
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  #75  
Old October 23rd, 2006, 08:28 PM
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Quote:
Honey needed the prong to correct Jesse and I fought it as long as I could UNTIL I put it on my arm and realized that when used correctly IT DOESN'T HURT.
hey, i tested it on my own neck before i bought the dang thing, LOL

(paranoid mommy)
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  #76  
Old October 23rd, 2006, 08:30 PM
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My man tried to buy one, but when he picked it up off the rack, Boo cried and threw up in the store.
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  #77  
Old October 23rd, 2006, 08:32 PM
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A better investment, IMO, 9 times out of 10 is a newtrix.
why do i always have to be that "1" that doesn't fit? i really wanted it to work but... sigh. dog with big melon head, wouldn't sit right and it pushed his eyes back into his head however yes, i have seen them on many dogs and they seem to work great!! better than any choke, prong, etc
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  #78  
Old October 23rd, 2006, 08:34 PM
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My man tried to buy one, but when he picked it up off the rack, Boo cried and threw up in the store
ah you didn't see him sneak all those chicken and duck cookies out of the bins eh? LOL sneaky, clever boo..!
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  #79  
Old October 23rd, 2006, 08:41 PM
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lol, no we know it was the prong because the man, Mr "Experimental Control" did it again with the same results.
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  #80  
Old October 23rd, 2006, 09:02 PM
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that speaks volumes about what boo suffered in his "previous life"... to get so traumatized that he vomits upon seeing a prong collar.... poor boo
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  #81  
Old October 23rd, 2006, 09:27 PM
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Yeah. Poor Boo. He's ok now. Almost too ok....
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  #82  
Old October 23rd, 2006, 09:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by littlesister View Post
I don't use either one either.
However, for some people that can not actually fulfill the basic function of walking their dogs, as they don't have the strength or proper training, I think it would be a good investment.

Ideally, they'd just run free.
I can assure you that I have both experience and strength but walking my 55 pound golden was a nightmare until I bought a prong. I hated the look of it at first and did lots of reading on how to use it properly before actually using it. I spent countless hours in obedience classes and walking in front of my house back and forth hoping she would catch on. I spent a small fortune on different types of collars. Nothing worked until the prong. They are not only for inexperienced trainers by the way as I know many people who compete in obedience and use the prong in training their dogs.
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  #83  
Old October 24th, 2006, 05:12 AM
littlesister littlesister is offline
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Copperbelle, you read a lot and learned how to use it - that's training.
Some folks, including a good friend of mine, with a dog of about 100 lbs, have stopped walking their dogs, due to shoulder dislocations (squirrels) and such trauma. After a month or so of no walks, she bought a prong collar, and now they can walk again.
Pain thresholds, - there's another factor, different dogs have different pain thresholds, what works just adequately for one breed would be a torture device on another dog.
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  #84  
Old October 24th, 2006, 09:26 AM
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there's another factor, different dogs have different pain thresholds, what works just adequately for one breed would be a torture device on another dog.
TOTALLY agree! cesar milan should mention that repeatedly in his shows though... not alot of folks seem to recognize this basic fact
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  #85  
Old October 26th, 2006, 09:57 AM
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What I appreciate most about the show, is that it can open peoples minds to alternatives to euthanasia or other less positive ideas.
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  #86  
Old October 26th, 2006, 11:55 PM
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I know there has been some concerns with Ceser Milan's methods. So I watched a few shows. I like him. I think he does stuff that many of us wouldn't ever consider and he gets away with it.

Thoughout the show and usally before he does something they do give a 'don't try these methods without a professional' warning.

His basic message seems to be that your dog WANTS you to be the pack leader and if you can't fill the role the dog will. That's not a bad message.
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