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  #31  
Old February 6th, 2011, 08:45 AM
aslan aslan is offline
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i'm not trying to be difficult,,,but try as i might i can't find a connection between the feral cats in Australia and Puppymills/kittymills around the world.
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  #32  
Old February 6th, 2011, 10:36 AM
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Aslan, fear not. Things get twisted so much by a couple of posters that I might just go and enjoy bashing my head against a wall somewhere. Carry on, ladies.
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  #33  
Old February 6th, 2011, 01:13 PM
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Aslan, fear not. Things get twisted so much by a couple of posters that I might just go and enjoy bashing my head against a wall somewhere. Carry on, ladies.

hmmmm since you're the one from australia i would assume you would be the one with info on feral cats in the evil feral cat puppymills there...

Last edited by Blackbear; February 6th, 2011 at 03:57 PM. Reason: Uncalled for comment
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  #34  
Old February 6th, 2011, 02:20 PM
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Are the Mennonites above the law?
Is there no-one ever reporting them,for puppymills and animal-cruelty?
Poor horses,would break my heart

I remember seeing a puppy-mill raid once that were run by Mennonites..
Amish and Menonite are slightly different, but on both sides there are different levels of what they do.
The menonite community here (just here Idont know about others) are more liberal and drive cars, granted they are black or dark blue and have no radios in them. The amish communities around here use the horse and buggy route.
I too feel so badly for all their animals, horses cattle, sheep, dogs what have you. To them animals are livestock no matter what it is.
I wouldnt say they are above the law, however they follow their religion very strictly. How doees one challenge religion?
No animal on their property holds any importance to them other than a means of income be it food or puppies and in turn are treated as nothing more than that.
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  #35  
Old February 6th, 2011, 03:36 PM
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  #36  
Old February 6th, 2011, 03:38 PM
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- Ok so this is the BEST comment of all times! Thanks for the chuckle!!!
Yep, good to get a man's perspective.
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  #37  
Old February 6th, 2011, 03:46 PM
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Carry on, ladies.
Exactly Goldfields, I wouldn't bother. What's sad IS so many people with nothing to do with their time.
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  #38  
Old February 6th, 2011, 03:48 PM
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Exactly Goldfields, I wouldn't bother. What's sad IS so many people with nothing to do with their time.
oh you mean the people taking over threads on one topic to blah blah about something totally NOT related to the topic,,,yeah i really hate those people too,,how rude and inconsiderate eh.

now back to the ' puppymill" TOPIC.
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  #39  
Old February 6th, 2011, 03:55 PM
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oh you mean the people taking over threads on one topic to blah blah about something totally NOT related to the topic,,,yeah i really hate those people too,,how rude and inconsiderate eh.

now back to the ' puppymill" TOPIC.
True isn't it. It is almost like someone is trying to sabatoge...go figure.

So I guess we can all collectively say that ALL countries have their dark little secrets in regards to puppymills and bybs. One thing for sure is that in Canada, there are activists that have gone to great lengths to expose this ulcer to the public. There is progress although very slow, and the government can be blamed for this. The whole issue here is that this law falls under the Minister of Algriculture. Re-defining an 'animal' is where the problem lays. They do not know how to separate domestic animals from livestock in regards to changing the law. The fact that animals are considered possessions and are owned, this is another problem that we need to find a way around in order to make a significant change.

Of course education as stated many times is the best way to deter people from buying from petstores. People unfortunately are impulsive and are captivated by those eyes peering back begging for an out.
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  #40  
Old February 6th, 2011, 04:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Furbaby Momma View Post
Exactly Goldfields, I wouldn't bother. What's sad IS so many people with nothing to do with their time.
This thread was about puppy mills to begin with but a certain member kept going off track. The members here that are concerned about it are doing as much as they can about it with their time.
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  #41  
Old February 6th, 2011, 04:50 PM
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Oh,Oh would that be poor little me,if so,I am sorry
Goldfields,just to point out,I was not criticizing what goes on in Australia,but you are right on one point,most animals give me a warm fuzzy feeling
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  #42  
Old February 6th, 2011, 04:53 PM
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Oh,Oh would that be poor little me,if so,I am sorry
Oh no .....it wasn't you, Chico.
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  #43  
Old February 6th, 2011, 06:03 PM
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  #44  
Old February 6th, 2011, 07:05 PM
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but you are right on one point,most animals give me a warm fuzzy feeling
Thanks chico.

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Originally Posted by erykah1310 View Post
Amish and Menonite are slightly different, but on both sides there are different levels of what they do.
The menonite community here (just here Idont know about others) are more liberal and drive cars, granted they are black or dark blue and have no radios in them. The amish communities around here use the horse and buggy route.
I too feel so badly for all their animals, horses cattle, sheep, dogs what have you. To them animals are livestock no matter what it is.
That's strange. In the Owen Sound area (mid Ontario) , which is where I lived the first -- number of my years, there are two factions of Mennonites. One is the old style with the horse and buggies. The only transportation they can use beside that is a city/town bus. The other faction is called Progressive Mennonites. They have the dark coloured cars with no radios. Some of their children go to "regular" schools. They are allowed to wear light clothing and the females wear a scarf at all times once they reach a certain age. They are also allowed electricity in their homes. Just not TVs, radios, etc. I think at one time I was told there are over 200 different levels of factions within the Mennonite community.

Ok, back on topic..............
I really feel the reason why so many mills are coming to light now is because of the efforts of rescues organizations, animal activists (I'm not talking PETA), and the outrage of the ordinary citizen. Lets hope it keeps on keeping on.
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Last edited by marko; February 7th, 2011 at 11:39 AM.
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  #45  
Old February 7th, 2011, 07:08 AM
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Pets.ca is a wonderful animal website for all of us to learn and share, when you stay with one oppinion, you close yourself to learning something. A chance to educate others in a guiding way.

Everyone in this thread, in time got more educated in caring for their fur babies by all the wisdom that has been shared on this wonderful website. Feeding better food, being the best breeder, helping an animal in need, health issues, the best is hugs in support for each other.

I wish all of you a really great day!
{{{HUGE FURRY HUG}}}
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Last edited by marko; February 7th, 2011 at 11:38 AM.
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  #46  
Old February 7th, 2011, 07:14 AM
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As you have had tons of experience with all the work you have done, perhaps listening to your ideas of resolution will help us all learn to grow and expand our thoughts about the subject heading. Afterall, you did state that we should keep an open mind....so what do you have to offer in this thread that is specific to the subject heading? (and I am not being rude by the way..just curious as to your take on this).

Last edited by Blackbear; February 7th, 2011 at 07:50 AM. Reason: Should have been a PM
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  #47  
Old February 7th, 2011, 07:51 AM
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Pls remain civil and on-topic. If you have something pertinent to say, pls share. If you can't remain civil, pls refrain from posting.
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  #48  
Old February 7th, 2011, 07:57 AM
Furbaby Momma Furbaby Momma is offline
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A member form another country is explaining what she knows, you and other members can take time to educate, but no it's easier to call in the troups and bash.
BenMax you didn't know all you know today (I remember you from another website) with time you have become more educated.
In the OP there are links to all the horror that collectively is all around the world. Every country has sacred animals, and discarded animals. How I treat my animals is not how someone else does.
My fight for animals was helped greatly when I stepped back and took breath, started to educate myself about all the animal world. Farming, breeding, rescuing, hunting..there are ethical people in this group...but there is also unethical people in this group.
BYB's, Puppmill's, Catmill's are reading pet boards they learn all about how to serve the greedy public. They learn to be more discrete about there business, they become members of pet websites and talk to all of you learning how better to make money off there animals.
When you tell the general public how to choose there next fur addition, help people to understand how a rescue animal is so in need of your love...maybe not everyone will listen but maybe one, two or three will listen.

I am an animal lover...I am known to be "The crazy animal lover woman" I wear that name with pride.
An animal does not judge your love for it, learn from your animal and stop judging others...learn, educate and be respectful.
You are reading my words...there is a wonderful woman with feelings writting these words, she read the words written by members who are human beings in the threadjack thread...does it make you all feel good to do that...I guess so.

I hope you have a great day,
Furbaby Momma

Last edited by marko; February 7th, 2011 at 11:40 AM.
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  #49  
Old February 7th, 2011, 08:13 AM
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Thank you for sharing Furbaby Momma. I have indeed learnt alot from THIS forum concernting some valuable training tips, food suggestions and also I have meet some amazing people who HELPED me with the under ground bully movement. Absolutely nothing of value from the othe forum except for alot of bickering. If you know me, then you are definately aware of my involvement throughout the now 16 years of dedicated animal welfare route I have equally taken. Toe curling is not foreign to me either, but I rather not share so that others can sleep. This is not a quest to challenge who does more nor less, and I am not one looking for recognition but I am looking for validation for the cause which is not what I surprisingly see from some members here that share that same journey. I guess it is selfish that I also wish to educate on why rescues and shelters take the stand that we do. We are the ones (and you aswell I assume) that are in the trenches, not those that stand by and justify or ignore the cause of spreading the word about spay and neuter and being more pro-active rather than defensive. There is history here and there is frustration.

So thank you for sharing your concern and your response is well taken.

Now to stay on topic..what can you bring to the table?

Hopefully there is no reason to edit this post.
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  #50  
Old February 7th, 2011, 08:13 AM
aslan aslan is offline
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Furbaby Momma,,as Benmax suggested please share the information you have and possibly give some suggestions on how to fix the problem..

As for the other situation when someone constantly goes into threads to continually go off topic no matter how many times they're asked to stay on topic or please start their own topic on what they want to discuss then yup feathers get abit ruffled.

Now as i said before,,,can we stay on the topic of puppymills.
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  #51  
Old February 7th, 2011, 09:09 AM
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I repeat - again - It would behoove us all to start working together to try to solve this problem rather than point out one country as being “better” than another. Please note they are not all bad news sites. Some actually show that progress, however slow, can be made.
I am really tired of my attempts to help "educate" people on a world wide problem being thwarted at every turn and these threads being locked. If you would like to come on and share some of your wisdom please do. We would welcome it - if done in a way that is educational which was my whole purpose of this thread. Thank you.
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We can stick our heads in the sand for only so long before it starts choking us. Face it folks. The pet population is bad ALL OVER THE WORLD!

Last edited by marko; February 7th, 2011 at 11:46 AM.
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  #52  
Old February 7th, 2011, 09:49 AM
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Feeding better food, being the best breeder, helping an animal in need, health issues, the best is hugs in support for each other.

I wish all of you a really great day!
{{{HUGE FURRY HUG}}}
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I'm not trying to nitpick, but I don't think there are too many threads on Pets that cover how to be the best breeder? I think most members on here are very pro spay/neuter and most feel that until all the animals in the thousands of rescues, shelters, humane societies etc. around the world have found homes, there should be no breeding. It hasn't been in my experience that this particular topic has been covered extensively here, or is what Pets has come to be about.

Regardless, that is and

Back to the topic at hand... I agree with you 100% 14+ that I think the public's awareness of puppy mills is coming to light with all the efforts of rescue groups around the world (and yes - not PETA). I actually think most people are aware of them, but don't connect that puppy in the window at the petstore with a puppy mill. Actually, I think deep down some people do realize, but don't want to believe it and talk themselves out of it.

I'm sure this holds true for every rescue, but I know at the LHS, when we have owners who are surrendering an animal fill out a history form, almost all the dogs/cats were purchased from a BYB or a pet store (puppy mill). It's just so sad
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  #53  
Old February 7th, 2011, 10:36 AM
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I'm not trying to nitpick, but I don't think there are too many threads on Pets that cover how to be the best breeder? I think most members on here are very pro spay/neuter and most feel that until all the animals in the thousands of rescues, shelters, humane societies etc. around the world have found homes, there should be no breeding. It hasn't been in my experience that this particular topic has been covered extensively here, or is what Pets has come to be about.

Yup a couple of members think so

Regardless, that is and

Back to the topic at hand... I agree with you 100% 14+ that I think the public's awareness of puppy mills is coming to light with all the efforts of rescue groups around the world (and yes - not PETA). I actually think most people are aware of them, but don't connect that puppy in the window at the petstore with a puppy mill. Actually, I think deep down some people do realize, but don't want to believe it and talk themselves out of it.

I'm sure this holds true for every rescue, but I know at the LHS, when we have owners who are surrendering an animal fill out a history form, almost all the dogs/cats were purchased from a BYB or a pet store (puppy mill). It's just so sad
I have read that some people feel that rescuing that "puppy" in the pet store is helping that one pet and doesn't change the conditions that his/her mom and dad have to live in. What people aren't seeing is the connection is that the money they have given the pet store allows the miller to continue. I have yet to see a commercial that connects the two. And I really believe it has to be a shocking visual connection to get people's attention.

Also, the average person doesn't see the overpopulation, yes, they see the TV commercials, but how many people actually go into the pounds/shelters? That's where you see the reality of pet overpopulation.

I don't see the laws changing in the near future, it would affect too many farmers (won't go there on this thread), so the only way to stop the millers is to make it socially unacceptable to buy from the internet and pet stores.

Yes, millers are getting smarter and smarter to look more like rep breeders .
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  #54  
Old February 7th, 2011, 11:33 AM
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Let's please keep this civil and on topic.
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  #55  
Old February 7th, 2011, 12:16 PM
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I have read that some people feel that rescuing that "puppy" in the pet store is helping that one pet and doesn't change the conditions that his/her mom and dad have to live in. What people aren't seeing is the connection is that the money they have given the pet store allows the miller to continue. I have yet to see a commercial that connects the two. And I really believe it has to be a shocking visual connection to get people's attention.

Also, the average person doesn't see the overpopulation, yes, they see the TV commercials, but how many people actually go into the pounds/shelters? That's where you see the reality of pet overpopulation.

I don't see the laws changing in the near future, it would affect too many farmers (won't go there on this thread), so the only way to stop the millers is to make it socially unacceptable to buy from the internet and pet stores.

Yes, millers are getting smarter and smarter to look more like rep breeders .
L4H, I think your dead on - many people think they have "rescued" a puppy when they purchase from a petstore. Unfortunately, whatever your intentions/thoughts for purchasing a dog from a petstore are, it still supports puppy mills.

The only way to quit supporting puppy mills is to quit providing a demand for their "product" - in this case puppies/kittens. Numerous times when I hear someone say their pup/kitty was a "rescue", I immediately get excited, just to learn further in the conversation they bought from a pet store. I can see how it is very difficult to leave an animal in a petstore - because they do deserve a home and love too - but the only way to quit supporting the horrendous conditions they come from is to quit demanding pups/kittens from these sources.

And yeah, unfortunately in these days its not simply enough to tell others about these horrific conditions - graphic images seem to be needed to get the point across. And even then, I think people easily turn a blind eye and think "Oh that doesn't happen here" or they believe the employee at the petstore who swears up and down that the puppy/kitten came from a reputable breeder - because that's what they want to believe.

Even those that regularly visit or even volunteer in a shelter/rescue/humane society may not have any idea how bad the situation really is. Especially if they work at a no-kill shelter, like I do. Unless you physically see the endless waiting list to come in (ours dates back almost a year ), or have to deal with countless people on the phone that you have to turn away because there is no room, you may not have any idea. We have to explain to them it's not simply "just one more" animal it's millions waiting to come in, and listen to the horrific stories of how they are going to shoot, drown, dump, or otherwise kill the animal because no one has room to take it.

Sorry, I'm doing ranting
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  #56  
Old February 7th, 2011, 12:30 PM
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Unfortunately the puppies from a puppymill usually go through a broker who sells to the pet store,,who once the puppies are too old to sell as cute little pups,,they end up in rescue or killed..so the puppymill still makes some money..I think what needs to happen is that no pet stores should be allowed to sell any animals unless coming from a rescue of some sort.
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  #57  
Old February 7th, 2011, 12:34 PM
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I was looking for further research on the internet and the big difference between North America's laws and European's laws is due to the NA considers animals as "property" and not "living beings". In Wikipedia it claims that Switzerland has the strictest cruelty laws which includes that minimum amount of exercise time a dog can be given. Now wouldn't that be something if the millers had to provide walks to all their dogs otherwise face cruelty charges.
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  #58  
Old February 7th, 2011, 12:37 PM
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Unfortunately the puppies from a puppymill usually go through a broker who sells to the pet store,,who once the puppies are too old to sell as cute little pups,,they end up in rescue or killed..so the puppymill still makes some money..I think what needs to happen is that no pet stores should be allowed to sell any animals unless coming from a rescue of some sort.
There is still that darn internet .
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  #59  
Old February 7th, 2011, 12:40 PM
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There is still that darn internet .
this is true L4 but then people wouldn't be able to say it was a rescue when they've searched out fifi the designer breed and paid 2 grand for her when fifi2 is in rescue for the price of adoption.

they need to get rid of puppy brokers too.
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  #60  
Old February 7th, 2011, 12:51 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: High River, AB, Canada
Posts: 622
Aslan, I agree that if pet stores only sold puppies/kittens by working with shelters, humane societies etc. it would help tremendously with the pet-overpopulation problem. We have a few petstores here we work with, and the animals get adopted out very quickly because of all the exposure they get in a petstore! I think petstores have an incredible opportunity, because they can provide so much exposure to many of the public, to help with this situation. Unfortunately, when all you care about is $$$, this route doesn't seem so favorable. Given the choice between helping some local rescues or making thousands on labradoodles, bugs, maltipoos, and whatever the heck else they are called, the greedy *******s go for the latter.

I've had the unfortunate experience to know a few people who have sold kittens/puppies to pet stores. While they are not puppy mills, they are nothing more than BYB's who know nothing about having a litter.

L4H, did you find anything in your searches as to how they enforce such regulations in Switzerland? I'd be curious to learn how they have the manpower to regulate such laws.

It would be great to see some stricter laws here. In any area I've lived in Canada, there is basically nothing that the law will do for dogs/cats that are in dire need - as long as they have the very bare essentials (which basically includes nothing), they won't even bother.
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My babies: Sassy - Maltese X (9), Furby - Shihtzu X (7), Brynn - Boxer (3), Diesel - Boxer (1)

"Many of the Earth's habitats, animals, plants, insects, and even micro-organisms that we know as rare may not be known at all by future generations. We have the capability, and the responsibility. We must act before it is too late." - Dalai Lama
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