Raw food for pets - BARF diet

[Denwishy]

So will he actually be eating the bone? Or just the meat part? And they can digest that?

the backbone is not sharp? Then howcome for as long as i can remember, people always say chicken bones are very dangerous for dogs........

What about chicken wings? can i feed him that?

wendy

[Nevada77]

Okay so I have read many of the posts and they all seem positive and great sellers for the raw meat diet. I have a few questions though.

1. Is this diet really that much cheaper than dry kibble?

2. What are the significant benefits of this diet compared to feeding kibble and table scrapes?

3. For those who own dogs that are pack dogs or have aggressive tendancies ie. Malamutes, Akitas, Huskies do you believe that this could increase the WILDNESS of your dog?

I hope that none of these questions have been asked and I missed them, if so just lead me to the thread.

Nevada

[meb999]

Nevada : technodoll is the expert when it comes to raw. Bonus : she owns 2 akitas...

Then howcome for as long as i can remember, people always say chicken bones are very dangerous for dogs

COOKED bones (especially chicken bones becasue they're small) are very brittle and break into sharp little pieces that can rip your dog's stomach lining or intestines or block the passage. Raw bones aren't brittle.

[technodoll]

1. Is this diet really that much cheaper than dry kibble?

2. What are the significant benefits of this diet compared to feeding kibble and table scrapes?

3. For those who own dogs that are pack dogs or have aggressive tendancies ie. Malamutes, Akitas, Huskies do you believe that this could increase the WILDNESS of your dog?

1 - it is as cheap as you want to make it... vs price of holistic kibble of course. if you do your homework to find good sources of cheap meats, bones, organs, etc and buy in bulk to save money, participate in your local coop, etc, the answer is yes. if you just walk into the grocery store every few days and grab whatever is in the counter and don't watch for sales, it will be very expensive, LOL!

2 - a list significant benefits can be read here: http://www.rawlearning.com/rawfaq.html

3 - no, no and NO! LOL if your dog views his dinner as a "high value item" that needs to be guarded from other dogs, then feed the dogs in their crates, or in different rooms, etc. other than that, food is food and should be treated as such by any dog, up to the alpha to make the rules

feel free to PM me if you have specific questions! and good luck!

[Pubbie]

Hi All
I have a puppy of 2 months, a Pug mix ShihTzu. I was wondering if raw food is suitable for him? What about bones? His vet seems to say bones are dangerous to him. Currently he is own kibbie diet.
We stay in an apartment. Have anyone who stayed in apartments tried raw diet for their puppies before? I would really love to learn some experiences from other members who own toy dog breeds and have switch to raw feed successfully for their pups or doggies!

Thanks a lot

Regards
Vivian
Proud owner of Pubbie!

[Scott_B]

Raw is suitable for any breed of dog! Especially small dogs who can have problems with their teeth from lack of chewing.

I suggest you find the book, Work Wonders. Its an excellent book.

http://www.dogwise.com/ItemDetails.cfm?ID=DN230

[meb999]

Originally Posted by Pubbie

Hi All
His vet seems to say bones are dangerous to him. Currently he is own kibbie diet.

Cooked bones are VERY harmfull for a dog and should never be fed. They are brittle and break into sharp little pieces that can get lodged in your dogs stomach lining, or intestines. They can also cut-up your pooches insides. Never a good idea, this is probably what your vet is warning you about.

Raw bones, on the other hand, aren't brittled at all. They are safe and healthy, whether as an occasional treat or as part of a RAW diet.

[technodoll]

yep! all true

i see many raw-food gurus on board now, LOL!

[Pubbie]

Dear All
Thanks for all the replies.
We gave our puppy of carrot cut into small cubes (about 2mmx2mm) which he eagerly munched up and half a leaf of salad leave also cut into small bits, but he threw up the next day!
Should I continue with meat?
Thanks in advance

Regards
Vivian
Proud owner of Pubbie!

[mafiaprincess]

Dogs are carnivores.. Were you giving your dog any meat, or just the veggies?

[technodoll]

dogs cannot break down the cellulose walls of vegetables, so they exit the body in the same way they came in (intact, undigested pieces). vomited pieces of veggies just show how hard it was for the stomach to digest and the irritating substance got rejected. if you want to feed raw veggies to your dog in a digestible form, they have to be pulped/ juiced and blended with raw meat.

dogs are designed by nature to eat and digest meat, not vegetables, so if you do want to feed veggies, you should limit that to a very small portion of the overall diet. the bulk should be raw meat, raw bones, and some raw organ meats. if you have specific questions you'd like to ask (how? why? when? how much? etc) we are here to help you!

[LynLyn]

before i read this thread, i was cutting up all of bowser's meat cause i thought it might be better for him, hehe now i know to just give him a full piece of steak (even if it makes daddy jealous)

one thing though, he wont eat raw chicken *sigh* and it was soo cheap, he just takes it from me and hides it in his crate.

I have some concerns though...

can i give my dog potatoe? some threads say yes it's fine and i was but then a friend of mine says that potatoe is terrible for dogs cause it's a complex carb, and i'm only blocking up his system by giving it to him.

garlic, lots of conflicting info here, I've been giving it to bowser for over a year for flea prevention, but now i'm finding info everywhere that it's poisonous for dogs and that I might as well be giving him chocolate if I'm gonna give him garlic, he loves it and he seems fine....do i continue giving it to him?

gas bombs....bowser is one of those dogs going through detox, his stinkbombs are BAAAADDD!!! they are silent but deadly (of course), and they can clear a room. (and to top things off his favorite place to let loose is on my lap so i can get blamed) how long is this going to last?

[technodoll]

Originally Posted by lynlyn

one thing though, he wont eat raw chicken *sigh* and it was soo cheap, he just takes it from me and hides it in his crate.

can i give my dog potatoe? some threads say yes it's fine and i was but then a friend of mine says that potatoe is terrible for dogs cause it's a complex carb, and i'm only blocking up his system by giving it to him.

maybe bowser just likes his chicken "ripe"... mafiaprincess's dog cider won't eat any riblets unless they have been sitting in the fridge for a few days and yes a little bit of potato here and there is perfectly fine (lots of dog food on the market is fish and potato, for example). sweet potatoes contain more vitamins, try baking some and freezing with some sodium-free broth in ice-cube trays, when you want to offer some just pop out a cube, thaw, and there you go

Originally Posted by lynlyn

garlic, lots of conflicting info here, I've been giving it to bowser for over a year for flea prevention, but now i'm finding info everywhere that it's poisonous for dogs and that I might as well be giving him chocolate if I'm gonna give him garlic, he loves it and he seems fine....do i continue giving it to him?

fresh garlic is also fine, in small doses (think flavoring agent rather than a supplement).

Originally Posted by lynlyn

gas bombs....bowser is one of those dogs going through detox, his stinkbombs are BAAAADDD!!! they are silent but deadly (of course), and they can clear a room. (and to top things off his favorite place to let loose is on my lap so i can get blamed) how long is this going to last?

i think bowser might need some broad-spectrum digestive enzymes and probiotics to help him with the transition. also, giving too much variety too soon is often a cause of "detox", stick to ONE protein source for a few days (with edible bone) and when you see hard stools and good digestion, then you can slowly start to add organ meats and other protein sources. Too much fat (as in chicken skin, for ex) can also cause gas, so do veggies and grains.

how many days has he been on raw, and what have you given him to date? maybe we can help you "fix" the transition

[LynLyn]

he has only been on raw for 4 days so he's super new to all of this.

First day: That was the day of chicken (from reading on forum) I gave him a chicken thigh with the back on it and he carried it to his crate like he was going to eat it, and while i was supervising, he shoved the piece of chicken under his blankey and went off to play, after ten minutes of play he pushed his food bowl towards me and ignored the chicken thigh, so first day of raw diet he actually ended up eating kibble

Second day: He got pork, this is the one where i was mistakenly cutting it up into small pieces. Regardless he loved loved loved it and couldn't scarf it down fast enough.

Third day: This is where I got excited cause he took so well to the pork and decided to add variety. I bought chicken hearts and livers. I fed him 3 chicken hearts and one chicken liver with some lettuce (the lettuce cause he LOVES eating my salads). again he inhaled it (which is weird cause it was chicken) and even came back begging for more

Fourth day: which is today. I have some beef (ribs but the small ones like used in Korean cooking) defrosting in the fridge right now, he'll likely get it in an hour or two from now, he's already shown BIG interest in it (i let him sniff it earlier) so I don't think he'll have any problems eating it.

So......hehe i spent the whole day today reading the BARF forum and i think yes there is definitely too much variety to start (I was a bit too gung ho about this huh?) so...should i try the chicken again (but a bit riper?) or should i just do the pork for a week or so seeing how he likes it sooo much already? and i want to get probiotics too (maybe in a yogurt? he loves yogurt), but as for variety goes is it too early to add to his diet? or should i just get the capsules and start now? Bowser is about 10lbs so how much should he get?

Whew! that's alot of questions, sowwie for bombing you guys with them, I appreciate the help that I'm getting sooooo much! I love how much information is out there, and am so pleased to have people break it down to my specific issues for me. A huge thank you in advance!

[LynLyn]

well the beef was a definite no go at all. :sad: he would only sniff and lick it, finally ate one little piece that i ripped up for him. I cut it up into tiny little pieces cause i figured maybe he doesn't know how to rip it apart yet, but again he only ate one piece(handfed) and ignored the rest.

I'll either have to give him kibble tonight or fast him and go buy some pork tomorrow, seeing that i already know he loves that. *sigh*

[technodoll]

Originally Posted by lynlyn

so...should i try the chicken again (but a bit riper?) or should i just do the pork for a week or so seeing how he likes it sooo much already? and i want to get probiotics too (maybe in a yogurt? he loves yogurt), but as for variety goes is it too early to add to his diet? or should i just get the capsules and start now? Bowser is about 10lbs so how much should he get?

i suggest keeping bowser on the pork for a week, since he likes it so much! vary the parts of pork (butt, riblet, flank, some pork organs, etc) and make sure he's crunching through some bone, too (if not, you can give him some wet food mixed with some crushed eggshells for the calcium). i think he might like other red meats very much too! at this point, digestive enzymes and probiotics are always a good idea if the stools are loose or if there are gassy farts

when it's time to make him eat chicken, a few tips:

-get rid of all kibble you have in the house. he knows its there and he knows he will get a meal if he snubs what he doesn't want.
-try other parts of the chicken (neck, wing, breast, tail, etc) - he just might not like drumsticks for some reason
-try scoring the meat (slicing into the meat to make it less smooth) or lightly searing it to bring out the juices - this does not cook the bones - , smearing it with wet food or light-sodium soy sauce or other things he likes. this sometimes gets them going
-try "ripening" the meat a little, maybe he likes stinky chicken

also try turkey, goat, lamb, any wild game you can, any fish you can, eggs, cottage cheese, yogurt, etc... and i suggest you let him eat as much as he wants and only cut back if you see he's gaining too much weight. you'll see muscles soon though

[LynLyn]

technodoll thank you so much for giving advice!!
I am going back to the supermarket tomorrow for some more pork.

as for the beef, i seared it lightly and it seems to be working, he's eating as I type, and the beef is still 85% raw. I hope he finishes everything

[technodoll]

Originally Posted by lynlyn

as for the beef, i seared it lightly and it seems to be working, he's eating as I type,

woohoo! sometimes they just need a little encouragement!

[LynLyn]

Originally Posted by technodoll

woohoo! sometimes they just need a little encouragement!

dang!! he only ate like 8 pieces (and they're really small cause i cut them up)

argh! i wish i had some pork....now he has to be hungry until tomorrow.

[technodoll]

lynlyn, try offering him a hard-boiled egg (cooled and in the shell, just chip off a bit to show him it's food inside) or a can of fish, if you have any? (no more kibble... go hide it in the garage, LOL)

next time when searing meat, you can sprinkle some garlic powder to make it tasty or parmesan cheese, many dogs can't resist that!

[Scott_B]

One thing I though should be pointed out. If he doesnt want to eat somthing at one meal, dont right away offer somthing else that you know he will eat. Thats how you get picky dogs.

Do the 10min rule. If they dont eat it after 10min, take it up and toss it in the fridge. Offer it again at the next meal. You can do this a few times, as it wont hurt them to miss a meal or two. Some dogs will hold out if they know that doing so will result in you giving them somthing yummy instead!

[technodoll]

Scott that is excellent advice. sometimes it's ALL it takes (that, and remove all kibble from the house). however small (toy) dogs should not be fasted for more than a day... they burn calories faster than big dogs and need a more steady supply of energy (unless the dog is fat, of course).

[LynLyn]

on my way out the door, to go to the supermarket to pick up some pork, i offered it to him again this morning but he wouldn't eat it, I'm not sure if it's because he didn't want it or because he got in trouble for peeing on the drapes this morning.

I will offer it one more time at dinner time, if not then it's on to the pork and for a week.

I appreciate the advice so much everyone, this is harder than I thought, who would've thought, a dog that doesn't want raw meat.

[technodoll]

Originally Posted by lynlyn

who would've thought, a dog that doesn't want raw meat

oh they exist all right... i have two of them! while they do enjoy some kinds of raw meaty bones, they have gotten progressively pickier over time both looove pork though, it's their favorite. and seared beef heart chunks almost always get an A+ too! oh and my friend's dog only likes certain cuts of steak... all from the same cow but apparently different textures and tastes, how ridiculous is that?

[LynLyn]

ok i went and bought pork necks, now this post is mostly for encouragement.

i went to the asian market to pick up the pork necks and the guys decided to ask me what it was for, and i told them it was for my dog.

The butcher and everyone else at the store proceeded to tell me what an idiot I am, and that some humans can't afford meat and here I am buying it for my dog. He said that he used to give his dog leftover scraps from his job and his dog got sick from it and now has to go to the vet every 3 months, which scares the living crap out of me.

especially now that bowser has not eaten for 2 days and i'm too scared to give him the pork necks, yet at the same time not willing to give him kibble.

Please please please tell me that I'm doing the right thing here.

I never thought there would be so much opposition from everyone (mom, dad friends, strange butchers, people on the street admiring my dog)

argh! I'm totally freaking out.

are pork necks ok?

[Scott_B]

Please please please tell me that I'm doing the right thing here.

You are totally doing the right thing!

Would it make you feel better to know that dogs have died because they've choked on kibble? Yup thats right.

Don't worry what others say. There are sooooo many people out there feeding this diet. People are afraid because they fear the unknown.

your doing things right

[technodoll]

sigh. don't listen to the ignorant people, lynlyn yes pork necks are fine to feed but they are very boney so you will need to add pork meat of some kind to balance the day's food intake.

if you cannot find a friendly butcher who understands, just don't mention anything as it's none of their business HOW you raise you boy. there will ALWAYS be folks who will have a "horror story" to discourage you (sure, a dog eating week-old scraps off a dirty floor might get sick - but you're not feeding that way, are you?) LOL besides how many dogs get sick on kibble every day. meh, just shrug it off and trust your own intelligence to make the right decisions. a bunch of us here did that and our furkids are doing superbly

i mostly shop at 4 grocery stores (Intermarché, Metro, IGA and Maxi) to stock up on meat sales as I don't have to speak to anyone, i just buy the stuff and go on my merry way. I did find a very friendly butcher who, after hearing about WHY i buy cases of beef heart and organ meats on a regular basis, is now working with a local vet to develop raw meat mixes for sale to the public! so the demand is there, it's growing, and many vets are getting on board too.

stay focused, stay calm, and give that boy his dinner with confidence. find him some nice lean pork butt to supplement the necks, try giving him some fish, some eggs, if you can find a PA Supermarché in your area, lamb is on sale at $1.49/lbs this week so maybe you could try a bit. if you want to try Green Tripe I can point you to some sources (stinks like cow poop but the dogs love it).

[LynLyn]

Update

:sad: :sad: :sad: :sad: :sad: I've fallen off the wagon....(yes you can berate me I deserve it)

I feel like such a failure :sad:

Bowser did not want anything to do with the pork necks, I know that I shouldn't offer him something else cause it'll make for a picky dog, but he's small and he hasn't eaten in over 52 hours

So he has refused....

egg (raw, poached, hardboiled with a little shell taken off, hardboiled with full shell taken off, hardboiled smushed into pieces)

He has refused the "ripe" chicken

No to canned Salmon, frozen fish, and fresh fish (also picked up at supermarket today)

a definite no go again to the beef (it's now considered "ripe" right?)

a no to the same cut of pork that he loved last time

no to chicken hearts, livers, and some other unrecognizable organ that I only know the name of in vietnamese

I even considered giving him some of the crab I picked up for myself (didn't)

No technodoll I DID NOT give him kibble (I'd have to go rooting through my garbage can to do so), but I DID give him what gave him happy butt wiggles before I discovered BARF/RAW

he got pork cooked with rice, with chopped up lettuce and and egg cooked into it.

Yup...he ate it


P.S. I appreciate the advice and encouragement so much that you guys (especially technodoll) has given me. Unfortunately I think I'll have to start this all over again....tomorrow maybe? or the day after? Why Bowser Why?!?!?!

[barkley21]

Hi LynLyn
Please don't feel like a failure...you're not! You are succeeding because you're trying and don't worry, you'll get there. Look at Technodoll...her dogs are very fussy but she persevered! You will too
Have you tried drizzling some salmon oil on the meat? I hear that some dogs take to it that way.
Whatever you do, don't beat yourself up. Don't forget, you're not the only one who's new to raw....Bowser is too and he may just need a little more time to get used to it. Now hold that head up high and try, try, try again

[technodoll]

LOL stop beating yourself up believe it or not... some dogs just don't take to raw and as much of a shame as it is, what can you do? since your boy is only 10 lbs, you did the right thing by giving him cooked food. now if after a few more tries (even searing and "flavoring" the meat) he still won't eat raw, i'd consider home-cooking for him, it's not as good as raw but much, much better than any kibble you could find

if you cook, make up a big soup-pot full and freeze in small portions so it's not too much work. boil some ground, boneless meats (chicken, pork, beef, turkey, etc) with a LITTLE brown rice, or pasta, or other whole grains like barley, quinoa, millet, or sweet potatoes, and also some assorted veggies cut into very small pieces - you can buy a bag of frozen mixed veggies for example, as long as there are no onions (at least 3/4 meat and the rest grains & veggies) and add some garlic to flavor the broth, maybe a bit of low-sodium chicken or beef broth. for every pound of raw meat you will need to add 1 tsp of finely ground eggshells (collect your shells, dry them well and pulverize in a coffee grinder). you'll end up with a thick mush, which will do nothing to cleanse his teeth, so be sure to give bowser plenty of raw recreational bones for him to gnaw on. You'll also need to give him some Fish Oil capsules, ester-c and vitamin e, and if you want to add powdered alfalfa, kelp, rosemary, etc it's not a bad idea. You can mix the mush with yogurt, drizzle on olive oil, mix with canned fish, etc - just vary the meals, the meats, the supplements, etc and you should be fine!