Lack of Scientific Backing for Raw Diets

[Love4himies]

Well said, MerlinsHope, so glad you have such a great vet.

I forgot to add that ALL my foster kittens are put on a raw diet (prepared-NV) and I have heard comments from 3 different vets that they have such tremendous muscle mass. They couldn't believe it. Global Pet Foods who adopt out my fosters also comment on their muscle mass. That is enough scientific proof for me that cats should be on raw.

[luckypenny]

Originally Posted by MerlinsHope

...yes please contact him for his own observations of our dogs. I'm sure he'll happily share this with you.

Oh, I don't need to be convinced, watching my own dogs thrive is enough . It's just good to know there's a vet who's informing himself as well and won't look down upon his clients for choosing raw feeding.

[totallyhip]

Here here Merlins Hope!
I agree 110%

[Blackdog22]

To the person who claims to have left their meat out too long so their dog got sick;
- sorry, that's absolute poppycock. A dog's stomach is 50% hydrochlorlic acid. Your dog could easily eat 3 week old, sunbaked road kill and STILL wouldn't get sick.
There is a good chance that your dog was ill to begin with and would have gotten sick anyways

MerlinsHope, you seem to have mis-read my post. If you were to go back and re-read you will see that I did not state the meat being left out was the cause.....it is speculated to be a factor. Of course my vet could have been freaking me out as she was very anti-raw and I know biases do come into play. As far as I know, there are no known causes for gastric entritis?

Anyway, point Im trying to make is, I did not make my post in attempt to mislead people and I am very sorry if I did. I simply wanted to share my experience feeding the food.

[gypsy_girl]

You could check out www.monicasegal.com she has lots of good info on raw stuff, but she formulates using NRC standards.

[sugarcatmom]

Originally Posted by woof99

In the meantime there are veterinarian nutritionists that people can get a consult with and for a charge they will make up a homemade recipe based on the ideal needs of the individual pet. This is were we send clients that want to do homemade. petdiets.com I believe is the site.

I feel the need to point out that veterinary "nutritionists" are rarely any better than regular vets when it comes to feeding our companion animals. They're still educated in the same system that sees nutrition courses taught by pet food company representatives, and they're still pimping out the prescription diets on behalf of said pet food companies.

The petdiets.com website is horrid, along with it's equally laughable companion site: balanceit.com. Both are anti-raw, and both still advocate grains for carnivores, as well as pushing the myth that pets with renal insufficiency should be on low-protein diets. Petdiets is owned by Dr. Rebecca Remillard, who's been known to say that the natural feline diet (ie rodents, small birds etc) isn't nutritionally balanced (wtf??). She thinks all dogs and cats fed raw bones will eventually suffer an intestinal perforation. She loves to use condescending scare-tactics that imply us common folk are too stupid to feed our own pets.

And you guessed it, she loves to promote those prescription diets. No surprise there when you consider that a book she co-wrote called "Small Animal Clinical Nutrition" (used as a text-book in veterinary nutrition courses) was published by the Mark Morris Institute. Mark Morris Sr., for those that don't know, started the whole Hill's mega corp and invented the first "prescription" pet food (Canine K/D). His son, Mark Morris Jr, is a founding member of the American College of Veterinary Nutrition, the very organization that gave Dr. Remillard her credentials. Oh ya, and the Mark Morris Institute provides, free of charge to the host school, a teaching program in veterinary nutrition. Stocked with their own stable of vets. Who all work for Hill's.

Dr. Rebecca L. Remillard, a veterinarian and a veterinary nutritionist, says, on the PetDIETS site, that "the public health risk appears to be a significant downside" to feeding raw diets, "with no nutritional upside."

Puh-leeze.

[Love4himies]

Well said Sugarcatmom, you are always so wise in your words.

I went on the petdiets.com website, you have to pay for the info.

[want4rain]

-sheepis- im afraid to admit that Mister has buried his food for over a week in the fall... which is still warmer than our fridge by a long shot. we stopped feeding him outside cause of it!! had no troubles eating it although i wouldnt suggest that to a dog (or cat) with health issues especially one who has trouble with their immune system.

-ash

[LittleMonster]

Thank you all for the replies, very informative.

Thankfully, my dog is a 6lb pom. He doesn't have any health problems at the moment and due to his size, it is quite cheap to feed him even the most expensive food. So cost is not an issue with me.

Yes, dogs and cats are made to eat raw, this is exactly why I ventured into the world of raw. I really hate the thought of giving the dog the human equivalent of "cereal" and canned food everyday.

He is currently having orijen chicken and fish (rotating), and during dinner time he always gets a bit of cooked chicken/beef & veggies that we set aside in another pot with no salt/spices. He loves the home made stuff, but no matter what I do I can't get him to have canned food. He usually takes a few bits of the canned food and nothing more (and I've tried many, many different brands and flavors).

Originally Posted by Blackdog22

I chose not to feed raw due to a bad experience with it.
Years ago I attempted to feed my female raw. Everything was fine for the first little while until one fateful afternoon. I put down her food as usual and walked away, for some reason I lost track of time and didnt return to the dish for 20 minutes.

You are right, raw probably was not the main culprit. [edit] My dog sometimes gets into the most disgusting things you could possibly find. For example, I walk him everyday to a lake near my house, the other day he managed to find a dead fish (dead for a number of days, mostly skin/head, even the seagulls didn't want it!), I caught him trying to fit the entire fish head in his mouth, no doubt trying to eat it. I'm sure he got bits and pieces of it before I could get it out of his mouth, luckily the next day he was just fine... But like you, it still scares me simply because the consequences of tainted food is so great. Even if the bacteria aren't the cause, I know I'll be kicking myself if something did happen, and I wasn't doing my best do prevent it...

Originally Posted by luckypenny

What was the deciding factor that convinced me? It wasn't any of the research I did on my own; it was an experience. One of our dogs never did well on kibble, whether it was vet prescribed or one of the high quality brands.

This is exactly why I'm not completely sold on the idea is because my dog is doing pretty well on orijen.

Originally Posted by pitgrrl

Here's the trouble, who funds studies? Primarily dog food companies, which don't stand to make any money off looking at raw diets, so unfortunately, you may no find what you're looking for.

True. I read an article yesterday and it mentioned the shortage of small animal nutritionists at veterinary colleges. Basically, when the college does not have anyone available to teach the class, they ask the nutritionists from food companies to come in and teach. In another article, a vet was saying that raw/home cooked diets don't really get any lime light during the classes. All the students do is sit and analyze different food brands, and study what each ingredient does.

Originally Posted by erykah1310

This "balanced" concern everyone has for animal foods drive me insane honestly.
I mean, NO person eats a completely balanced diet day in and day out their entire lives, no wolf, coyote, cougar, elk, buffalo ect ect ect does this either.

You are right. I can hardly call my own meals balanced, I am probably being a bit too paranoid/overprotective.

Originally Posted by woof99

Medi-Cal used to offer homemade recipes and even gave away to clinics free of charge vitamin and mineral premix...

This may need another thread on its own... but... Speaking of premixes and supplements, has anyone tried out supplements designed for raw diets and home cooked meals? I've come across this company: http://www.knowbetterdogfood.com/

And another thing, has anyone tried the "fresh" cooked food available at pet stores? I don't mean the raw or canned food, but the packaged fresh food.

Another edit: I noticed Horizon also makes raw patties called "Horizon Pure". I know they make good kibble, so what about their raw? Someone in this thread said not to trust pre-packaged raw food. What about the Horizon Pure stuff?


On a totally unrelated note, it cracks me up every time my dog "talks" when he dreams during sleep. He is doing it as I type this... lol

[Khari]

I am new to this forum and glad I have joined. I live in Canada and a company named Champion Pet Foods makes "Orijen and Acana" Pet foods. BlackDog22 had mentioned that they feed this to their dog - I am going to post an article for you to read (although it is about Orijen cat food it still comes from the same company http://www.truthaboutpetfood.com/art...ths/Page1.html .....My friend was going to switch to Orijen for her dog - she contacted the company with several questions (on several different emails) in the last 3 months and not one response. I don't know if anyone sees all the recalls on Pet food??? I see it more and more these days when I search on the internet. It of course is not widely published. I used to feed my cats medi-cal and Royal Canain. They were on special diets with the vet for years. None of the foods helped with their ailments. They just covered them up for a short time. My cats never lost weight, had constant diarhhea, and UTI's kept on reoccuring. Never mind the constipation issue. Since I have put them on raw they have lost weight, and the one cats diarrhea has completely cleared up. My vet that I now take my cats to supports a raw diet. He says that most vets do not have nutritional experience and get kick backs from the pet food companies for selling their pet food.

I have been doing alot of research on the web on a raw diet and see the pros and cons but alot of the cons are by vets who then go to suggest the petfood in their clinic??? I also wonder if some things are posted anonymously by the pet food industries to scare people away from the raw diet so they buy their food?? Just a thought...

Thanks for this forum....

[MerlinsHope]

Originally Posted by Love4himies

Well said, MerlinsHope, so glad you have such a great vet.

I forgot to add that ALL my foster kittens are put on a raw diet (prepared-NV) and I have heard comments from 3 different vets that they have such tremendous muscle mass. They couldn't believe it. Global Pet Foods who adopt out my fosters also comment on their muscle mass. That is enough scientific proof for me that cats should be on raw.

He's an outstanding vet. If he didn't believe in raw, he never , ever mentioned it to us, and now of course , he believes in the power of it, because he's seen the difference in our own shar-pei and the ones that are brought in by other customers.

Last year I moved to Ontario (near Prescott), and it's been incredibly difficult to find a vet that will even offer Rescue discounts AND even more difficult to find one that supports Raw regimes. Next to impossible, so now we basically still go to our regular vet in Montreal. We're only 1.5 hours away so it's well worth the trip.

I've even gotten the local Dalmation rescue to get into raw and they've been successful for the past two years now, even with a kidney dal. (and that's a huge deal because Dals are genetically sensitive to purines), and they also make the trek into Montreal to visit the same vet.

He's the greatest vet I've ever had the pleasure of working with!

MM
L:

[erykah1310]

Oooh, Prescott!
Very off topic, but have you had the pleasure of meeting "super trainer/GSD breeder" there yet?

Watch out for her, shes quite the scam artist.

[Love4himies]

I don't know what is wrong with vets in this area, greed maybe??. I understand Kingston vets don't offer discounts to the local humane society.

[Dekka]

I have been feeding raw to my JRTs (I breed occasionally) the JRT fosters the whippets and now the BC for the past 4 years. I know breeders who have been doing it for over 20 years. Interestingly their dogs live longer than average, sometimes a LOT longer than average for the breed.

I went back to school to get a new piece of paper (I am now a forensic biotechnologist) at at times would pick up Orijen if I was to busy to get raw. They did ok or Orijen but they do even better on raw. All my dogs race and most do agility. I can tell by the placings looking back what they were on.

Raw can be cheaper if you plan ahead. I have a dedicated freezer (we have 7 dogs of our own and can have a couple extra at any given time) and buy 400 pounds or so of raw at a time from a raw co op.

I remember when I first switched to raw-the dogs looked at me like they couldn't believe their luck. This was as good as 'people' food.!!!

[pitgrrl]

Originally Posted by Dekka

I remember when I first switched to raw-the dogs looked at me like they couldn't believe their luck. This was as good as 'people' food.!!!

I often joke about making raw feeding "ads". When I fed kibble, I literally had to hand feed Streets more often than not, otherwise he just wouldn't touch his food, and we went through every good quality kibble and canned food I could get me hands on with no luck.

Now, The dogs literally sprint to their crates for meals. We have to keep the race track, I mean path, from the kitchen to the crates clear to avoid dog crashes and pile ups.

[MerlinsHope]

Originally Posted by Love4himies

I don't know what is wrong with vets in this area, greed maybe??. I understand Kingston vets don't offer discounts to the local humane society.

I don't know either. Perhaps in the larger cities there is more competition so vets have to get creative with their services, although I will say that our vet is a vet for all the right reasons. He also doesn't drive a Mercedes and live in a house the size of a hotel. I'll assume that to make a huge difference in his rates as well.

It's worth for me to drive the Montreal. Well worth the trip.

H A P P Y N E W Y E A R 2009
MM

[MerlinsHope]

Originally Posted by erykah1310

Oooh, Prescott!
Very off topic, but have you had the pleasure of meeting "super trainer/GSD breeder" there yet?

Watch out for her, shes quite the scam artist.

No actually. So far not at all, and I can't say that I've met anyone here who has either but that doesn't mean anything. I'll keep an eye out though.
Thank you

H A P P Y N E W Y E A R 2009
MM

[MerlinsHope]

Originally Posted by Blackdog22

[I][B]
MerlinsHope, you seem to have mis-read my post. If you were to go back and re-read yo.

Oh.. so sorry. Thousand Pardons!

H A P P Y N E W Y E A R 2009
MM

[flipgirl4]

Keep in mind that the stomach acidity of a kibble-fed dog vs that of a raw-fed dog is different. When a kibble-fed dog is converted to a raw diet, its stomach acidity increases so it`s important to transition slowly. I`m not a big fan of kibble and raw being fed together but I understand some do it because of financial concerns.

I just heard about a study done on premade raw diets which found that 60% of them had salmonella and E.coli or somewhere near that percentage. I don`t know who sponsored the studies however. The study didn`t mention that a dog`s digestive system isn`t as affected as a human`s would be because it`s shorter and the acidity level is higher.

I think a big concern for me is the quality of the meat you are buying. To me, what`s the point of feeding raw if you`re feeding your`dog meat that has been fed antibiotics, steroids and hormones. I understand that people can`t always go raw because of financial reasons or whatever; I`m not going to tell others what they should feed their dogs.

[MerlinsHope]

Keep in mind that the stomach acidity of a kibble-fed dog vs that of a raw-fed dog is different.

The above is a tad inaccurate. I understand what you are saying, but it's not about the acid. Unless the dog has established, developed candidae albicans, chances are good that the stomach acid is intact. What does change is the type of enzymes the stomach produces to digest the actual food contained therein, so if a dog is used to eating kibble, the dog's stomach has become conditioned to produce "X" enzymes to break down the food.

If, all of a sudden we offer a different type of food, the stomach, which has become SO conditioned to a single food source, has to "re-learn", (if you will), to conjure up a new type of enzyme to process this new type food.

This is why very often, kibble dogs toss up their raw for a about the first week or so. Their stomachs are conditioned to produce the incorrect types of enzymes to digest the food.

The work around for this is to feed your dog at different times, outside of their normal schedule, so if your dog is used to eating dinner at 6:00 pm, you can be pretty much assured that your dog's stomach is already priminng itself for those little crunchy kibbles..... so feed your dog before 6, or way after 6 or at 3 if you can. Completely change your feeding cycle for the first week or so and WILL help with the transition.

[bendyfoot]

That's a good tip, MH. We're lucky in that our critters had no trouble with the transition at all...

A question for you, could you outline your feeding regimine for me/us? I'm curious what proportions you feed (ie RMBs, organs, etc) over the course of a week...you can pm me if you don't want to get into it here.

[bendyfoot]

Originally Posted by MerlinsHope

No actually. So far not at all, and I can't say that I've met anyone here who has either but that doesn't mean anything. I'll keep an eye out though.
Thank you

H A P P Y N E W Y E A R 2009
MM

but is she still there (the Prescott GSD person?) I thought she'd moved to Southern Ontario? (maybe I'm confusing her w/ someone else but I dont' think so...in any case, yes, avoid like the plague)

[TwistedAngel]

Well as to your question about knowbetterdogfood.com, I frequently purchase a product from its sister company for cats - felinefuture.com - and my Amber has done beautifully on it since she was a kitten. I love it because it allows you to control what meats of what quality goes in it and allows for a larger variety, but please not that it doesn't constitute her entire diet. She get the Instincts TC powder three to four times a week, with her other meals consisting of RMBs like chicken legs/thighs/wings, and the occasional egg or serving of offal. I'm quite sure the dog version is of the same quality, and would do just fine.

[MerlinsHope]

Bendyfoot, no problem, especially since I'm doing this anyways for one of our adopters who is taking on one of our sharpei and wants to try to continue with the raw.

Everynight I've been sending her the dog's menu. I can constantly add it here for a week so that you can see. The only problem is the pictures. I'll try to upload them somewhere so I can add the pictures here.

MONDAY
(I photographed the packages so people could see the prices /specials that I shopped for)







TUESDAY





WEDNESDAY
(to be entered later on tonight)

[bendyfoot]

Wow, this is great, thank you! I look forward to seeing the other "menus"

Questions: I'm assuming, then, that you're feeding once daily (I think my girls would be thrilled to get that much food at one meal, but we do 2/daily meals right now...our GSD tends to get the yellow biley barfs if her tummy's empty for too long).

And the portions are based on weight of the dog?

And I see that you provide quite a variety at each meal, is there a specific reason for this?

[MerlinsHope]

Questions: I'm assuming, then, that you're feeding once daily (I think my girls would be thrilled to get that much food at one meal, but we do 2/daily meals right now...our GSD tends to get the yellow biley barfs if her tummy's empty for too long).

The older dogs and generally fed once a day, sometimes to add variety to their lives I feed them twice a day (just divide up the food into two meals instead of one). Puppies are fed up to three times a day. It depends on the dogs.

And the portions are based on weight of the dog?

2-3% of body weight

And I see that you provide quite a variety at each meal, is there a specific reason for this?

If you look at the components in the bowl with those meals I've tried to offer 80% meat with 10% bone and 10 offal. Essential Fatty Acids are paramount in their diet so the addition of fatty fish helps me make sure they are getting appropriate EFA's. If I don't have a whole prey, ( like whole chick or rabbit), I try to emulate the same by using different meat or fish components.

Tonight's meal was a dull one
Behold:

Butcher steak with a chicken leg
again... 80% meat with 10% bone BUT no offal tonight - I'll make up for it tomorrow night.

Like I keep trying to tell people, raw feeding shouldn't be turned into a complicated affair, keep it simple.

[LittleMonster]

dang, if i were there i'd steal a bowl and throw it on the bbq.

Thank you for the sample menu!

[bendyfoot]

Keep 'em coming MH, this is helpful, and also making me feel like my choices so for have been good ones!

now, I know you told me to keep it simple, but I am a complicator by nature, so I will ask another question

You mix up types of food (meat, bone, offal) in most meals. Is there any harm, in your opinion, in feeding the same proportions (80-10-10) without mixing the items? For example, I've been tending to feed ALL meat or ALL meaty bones or ALL offal in one meal (although they do get two meals a day so it varies daily I suppose, like this morning was meat and tonight will be meaty bones), tomorrow will be meaty bones in am and organ at night...this is ok too? (just tell me to stop fussing so much and I will )

[Masha]

How about fish? Do you feed raw fish to your dogs? I read that its best to feed 1 fish a week, raw. Do you feed it whole? Raw? Which types? How often/how much?

Do you buy your meat at a regular supermarket? Some people told me that supermarket chicken is too high in antibiotics and hormones... but the organic one costs sooo much...

I am currently doing 2-3 days a week on raw, and trying to absorb as much info as possible so that i can finally be brave enough to switch to 100% raw.

This is a great thread, thanks for the photos!

[Love4himies]

Originally Posted by MerlinsHope

Bendyfoot, no problem, especially since I'm doing this anyways for one of our adopters who is taking on one of our sharpei and wants to try to continue with the raw.

Everynight I've been sending her the dog's menu. I can constantly add it here for a week so that you can see. The only problem is the pictures. I'll try to upload them somewhere so I can add the pictures here.

MONDAY
(I photographed the packages so people could see the prices /specials that I shopped for)







TUESDAY





WEDNESDAY
(to be entered later on tonight)

Wow, their suppers look great, bet you have some super healthy dogs