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Old June 10th, 2010, 12:34 PM
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Saigo Saigo is offline
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Dog diabetes questions

Zoro (lab), was diagnosed with diabetes last sat, we had an appt. set up for the following monday for insulin/consultation at 4:30. By noon on monday he could barely walk, and was rushed in. He's better now.

But I have concerns about the diet the vet has him on. He's on w/d wet/dry. It has very little meat in it and high carbs. I wanted to put him on orijen senior he is nine. The vet was very adamant he be on w/d. Do any of you have a diabetic dog and if so what do you feed?

The monitors, is there a difference between animal/human? I thought they were the same. Is there a difference in the test strips animal verses human?

Zoro lost a lot of weight over this, I don't think he is getting the nutrition he needs. He's on 40 acres and normally very active. I'm nervous going against my vets advice, but I just don't like the ingredients in this food. It only has chicken by product meal for meat and the 1st ingredient is whole ground corn.

He is on humalin N 14 units. He goes back in tuesday for a level check. I'd like to start mixing the orijen in with w/d to give him more protein, but am nervous as I don't know the first thing about blood testing or diabetes.

This is all a little over whelming right now. Any help would be much appreciated.
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Old June 10th, 2010, 05:00 PM
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sugarcatmom sugarcatmom is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saigo View Post
But I have concerns about the diet the vet has him on. He's on w/d wet/dry. It has very little meat in it and high carbs.
The theory that goes with feeding W/D is that the high fibre will slow down glucose absorption. But you're right, W/D is also very high carb, and the more up-to-date thinking is that you want to minimize carb ingestion for diabetics. There are better ways to add fibre to a dog's diet than by feeding something as overpriced and poor in quality as W/D. Any chance you'd be interested in making your own food for Zoro?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saigo View Post
The monitors, is there a difference between animal/human? I thought they were the same. Is there a difference in the test strips animal verses human?
There is no need to buy the animal glucometers. People (and vets) have been using the human versions on their pets for years without issue, and it wasn't until a couple of companies saw an opportunity to make a few bucks that an animal version was created. They're overpriced, and because you can only get test strips from the vet, they're also inconvenient.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saigo View Post
I'd like to start mixing the orijen in with w/d to give him more protein, but am nervous as I don't know the first thing about blood testing or diabetes.

This is all a little over whelming right now. Any help would be much appreciated.
It gets better, I promise! There can be a bit of a steep learning curve initially, but once you get into the swing of things it all becomes second nature.
Here are some links worth checking out that might help:
http://www.k9diabetes.com/insulinfood.html
http://www.k9diabetes.com/
http://petdiabetes.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page
http://www.caninediabetes.org/
http://www.caninediabetes.org/bloodtesting.html
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  #3  
Old June 10th, 2010, 06:32 PM
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Saigo Saigo is offline
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Originally Posted by sugarcatmom View Post
The theory that goes with feeding W/D is that the high fibre will slow down glucose absorption. But you're right, W/D is also very high carb, and the more up-to-date thinking is that you want to minimize carb ingestion for diabetics. There are better ways to add fibre to a dog's diet than by feeding something as overpriced and poor in quality as W/D. Any chance you'd be interested in making your own food for Zoro?



There is no need to buy the animal glucometers. People (and vets) have been using the human versions on their pets for years without issue, and it wasn't until a couple of companies saw an opportunity to make a few bucks that an animal version was created. They're overpriced, and because you can only get test strips from the vet, they're also inconvenient.



It gets better, I promise! There can be a bit of a steep learning curve initially, but once you get into the swing of things it all becomes second nature.
Here are some links worth checking out that might help:
http://www.k9diabetes.com/insulinfood.html
http://www.k9diabetes.com/
http://petdiabetes.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page
http://www.caninediabetes.org/
http://www.caninediabetes.org/bloodtesting.html
Thanks sugarcatmom. I contacted my vet and they don't use the animal monitors. I got the same one they use. I already home cook for him quite a bit, so its a possibility, but I don't do it on a super regular basis, more as a treat 2-3 times a week.

We have added green beans to his diet which he loves, and I'm going to start adding orijen gradually. I feel more comfortable with him having at least some of this, as compared to the strict diet the vet has him on.

I have already gone through the web sites you suggested, except for the blood testing, which will be my next visit. I'm starting to feel a little more comfortable with all of this. The pharmacy gave me a lesson on blood testing today, but he did say he had never sold one for animal use LOL!

Thanks for the info.
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Old June 11th, 2010, 09:09 AM
pugsrule pugsrule is offline
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You have got very good advice from sugarcat mum. I highly recommend a forum that I belong to

http://k9diabetes.com/forum/index.php

There are very knowledgable people there, and their experience is invaluable. It is a pretty busy forum, and any questions are answered quickly.

I hate w/d as well. Vets always seem to start diabetic dogs with that, I home cook, but if you cant do that regularly, not an option. Orijen is a good food, but a bit rich, so you are smart to add a few green beans or other veggies.

The Humulin N is pretty cheap here in BC, but the syringes are only about $12/100 at walmart.

What kind of meter do you have? I use the freestyle and freestyle lite, and they are quite accurate. Once you check it against your vets, it can be relied on pretty much. The strips are reasonable if you get them on ebay. I get them for about 35 cents on there, as opposed to 75 cents at the pharmacy.

It can be an overwhelming disease to begin with, but becomes easier every day. Again I recommend the above forum, as I know how much it can help to have all your questions answered by people that live with this on a daily basis.

Hugs Joan
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Old June 11th, 2010, 11:18 AM
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Saigo Saigo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pugsrule View Post
You have got very good advice from sugarcat mum. I highly recommend a forum that I belong to

http://k9diabetes.com/forum/index.php

There are very knowledgable people there, and their experience is invaluable. It is a pretty busy forum, and any questions are answered quickly.

I hate w/d as well. Vets always seem to start diabetic dogs with that, I home cook, but if you cant do that regularly, not an option. Orijen is a good food, but a bit rich, so you are smart to add a few green beans or other veggies.

The Humulin N is pretty cheap here in BC, but the syringes are only about $12/100 at walmart.

What kind of meter do you have? I use the freestyle and freestyle lite, and they are quite accurate. Once you check it against your vets, it can be relied on pretty much. The strips are reasonable if you get them on ebay. I get them for about 35 cents on there, as opposed to 75 cents at the pharmacy.

It can be an overwhelming disease to begin with, but becomes easier every day. Again I recommend the above forum, as I know how much it can help to have all your questions answered by people that live with this on a daily basis.

Hugs Joan
Thanks Joan

You have given me a lot of good info very much appreciate it. I'm already starting to feel a little more comfortable with this disease. The meter is the one touch ultra mini. I know orijen is a bit rich, my Siamese can't handle it.
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Old June 11th, 2010, 02:31 PM
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Dr Lee Dr Lee is offline
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Explanation on why some vets prescribe w/d

I will go where angels fear to tread here. I am not trying to start a "food fight" (sorry, bad pun); nor am I trying to state that w/d is better than home cooked diets. I am just going to explain why most veterinarians prescribe w/d for diabetics... and no, it is not because we are evil money makers. Having owned hospitals in the past, veterinarians have a very, very, very low profit margin on food. No vet will retire from food profits.

The Carbohydrate Levels in w/d.
In cats, there are studies that show that low carb, high protein diets help in diabetics. Cats are carnivores where dogs are not. Additionally, most all dogs are Type 1 (IDDM) diabetes where most cats are type 2 (NIDDM) diabetes. These make a difference when it comes to direct diet benefits between dogs and cats. The current studies do not show that reduces carbohydrate levels benefits diabetic dogs (according to the specialists that lecture on this information). However due to current medicine understanding, we would not want excess or even high levels of carbs for diabetics.

w/d is often misunderstood as being high in carbs due to the NFE (Non Fermentable Energy) levels where carbohydrates would be placed. The high NFE in w/d however is from the fiber content used. There are studies that show that high fiber does help slow the carbohydrate absorption and help reduce "sugar spikes". Over the counter dry dog foods will range in their carbohydrates between 45 and 65% of dry matter with most falling between 45 and 55%. w/d carbohydrate level is at 51%. While it is assumed that excess carbs may be detrimental, there currently is not a reputable study showing that there is benefit of lower than average carbs for diabetic dogs nor that higher protein levels in canine diabetics help. Again - cats are a whole different situation: m/d, a cat diabetic diet, has 15% carbs while most cat foods have 30 to low 40s percentage of carbs. No dog commercial or prescription dog food has such low carb percentages as m/d.


w/d also has additional carnitine which helps facilitate the transport of fatty acids across the mitochondrial membrane; thus helping support energy metabolism.

While Hills has used artificial preservatives in the past, virtually all of their diets currently employ all natural preservative additives such as rosemary extract and tocopherol (from soy beans and a source of vitamin E).

Thus based off of clinical trials and studies, w/d has been shown to prove beneficial in canine diabetic patients. While other home made diets may be as good (or perhaps even better ), when veterinarians are making patient recommendations, most of us follow what we have from data. Many veterinarians do employ home made recepies for food allergies based upon studies and clinical trials. If the diabetic home made diet statitical data would catch up, we would start seeing it more commonly recommended by veterinarians.

So apologies if this thread got anyone steamed. Not my intent. Just trying to explain why we vets prescribe w/d - not whether you should or should not be following our recommendation. I hope this helps.
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  #7  
Old June 12th, 2010, 12:19 PM
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Saigo Saigo is offline
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Thanks for that explantion Dr. Lee. I know food is a delicate subject, when it comes to our fur kids. I really appreciate your input.
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