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View Poll Results: What food for Boo (and other dogs who can eat neither poultry not WK...) UNICHOICE
California Natural Herring and Sweet potato 0 0%
Canidae Lamb and Rice 1 8.33%
DVP Sweet potato and fish 2 16.67%
Evo Red Meat 2 16.67%
Evo +California Natural Herring 0 0%
Evo +Canidae Lamb 5 41.67%
Evo +DVP sweet potato+fish 0 0%
All of the above. 1 8.33%
Feed him canned instead. 0 0%
My choice is not here or I know something better and I've posted it below. 1 8.33%
Voters: 12. You may not vote on this poll

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  #61  
Old September 22nd, 2006, 07:03 PM
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What about this? It is a food called Blue

Deboned Chicken, Chicken Meal, Whole Ground Brown Rice, Whole Ground Barley, Oatmeal, Potato Flour, Tomato Pomace, Chicken Fat (preserved with Natural Mixed Tocopherols), Natural Flavor, Whole Sweet Potatoes, Whole Carrots, Ground Flaxseed, Alfalfa Meal, Herring Oil, Sea Salt, Dried Molasses, Malted Barley Flour, Potassium Chloride, Choline Chloride, Vitamin E Supplement, Zinc Amino Acid Complex (source of Chelated Zinc), Iron Amino Acid Complex (source of Chelated Iron), Mixed Tocopherols, Glucosamine Hydrochloride, Taurine, Green Lipped Mussel, Sea Cucumber, Chondroitin Sulfate, Yucca Shidigera Extract, Garlic, Spirulina, Lecithin, L-Carnitine, Dried Kelp, Parsley, Turmeric, Green Tea Extract, Lactobacillus Acidophilus, Lactobacillus Casei, Enterococcus Faecium, Bifidobacterium Thermophilum, Niacin, Copper Amino Acid Complex (source of Chelated Copper), Vitamin D Supplement, Vitamin A Supplement, Manganese Amino Acid Complex (source of Chelated Manganese), Vitamin B12 Supplement, Thiamin Hydrochloride, D-Calcium Pantothenate, Calcium Iodate, Riboflavin, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Sodium Selenite, Folic Acid, Vitamin K Supplement, Biotin.
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  #62  
Old September 22nd, 2006, 07:05 PM
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ooooo, and : http://www.pets.ca/forum/showthread....ight=menadione

They still have it in their food.
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  #63  
Old September 22nd, 2006, 07:08 PM
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The adult formula of Blue

It contains menadione. Didn't notice it in the Adult large breed formula that I posted before this

This is the regular adult formula

Chicken, Chicken Meal, Whole Ground Brown Rice, Whole Ground Barley, Rye , Oatmeal, Chicken Fat (preserved with Natural Mixed Tocopherols, Citric Acid and Rosemary), Whole Carrots, Whole Sweet Potatoes, Ground Flax Seed, Alfalfa, Herring Oil, Sea Salt, Barley Grass, Sunflower Oil (preserved with Natural Mixed Tocopherols), Calcium Phosphate, Dried Kelp, Whole Garlic Cloves, Lecithin, Parsley, Glucosamine, Spirulina, Yucca Schidigera, Lactobacillus Acidophilus, Bacillus Subtilis, Bifidobacterium Thermophilum, Bifidobacterium Longum, Enterococcus Faecium, Zinc Amino Acid Complex (source of Chelated Zinc), Choline Chloride, Iron Amino Acid Complex (source of Chelated Iron), Turmeric, Vitamin E Supplement , Manganese Amino Acid Complex (source of Chelated Manganese), Natural Color, Beta Carotene, Copper Amino Acid Complex (source of Chelated Copper), Potassium Amino Acid Complex (source of Chelated Potassium), Vitamin B12 Supplement, Vitamin A Supplement, Calcium Ascorbate (source of Vitamin C), Niacin, Calcium Pentothenate, Riboflavin, Folic Acid, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Thiamine Hydrochloride, Potassium Iodide, Biotin, Cobalt Proteinate (source of Chelated Cobalt), Vitamin D3 Supplement, Menadione Dimethylpyrimidinol Bisulfite (source of Vitamin K activity), Sodium Selenite.
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  #64  
Old September 22nd, 2006, 07:15 PM
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Now you got me all worried! I have to get another bag tomorrow,will take yet,another look at the ingredients.
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  #65  
Old September 22nd, 2006, 09:59 PM
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Beware the foods that say "Vitamin K supplement". If it's K1, it's ok. If it's K3, it's menadione.

I posted before (hijacked meb's thread a bit... sorry meb) that Boo, who normally has to be allowed a minimum of 2 weeks for a food change, was switched to just Evo completely today (after a little taste yesterday) and already his stool is perfectly firm. Jemma's a bit looser, but still ok (she's easier usually). I decided that since they weren't digesting the new WK, there was no point in doing a switch over...

that they stay ok...
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  #66  
Old September 22nd, 2006, 10:03 PM
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prin they'll not only stay OK, they will get better and better. Grains are really nasty for dogs in the long run... just not species appropriate, no matter how you cut it

will you be supplementing the EVO RM with anything else? or still debating?...

sooo happy the switch-over went well! three cheers!
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  #67  
Old September 22nd, 2006, 10:05 PM
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,I just find the ingedient in my dog's food,one of the last one the list ; menadione sodium bisulfite....
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  #68  
Old September 22nd, 2006, 10:19 PM
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Quote:
menadione sodium bisulfite
yup, that's the stuff...it's not the end of the world, but you may want to consider switching to a food that doesn't have it.
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  #69  
Old September 22nd, 2006, 10:41 PM
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Or just supplement with some antioxidants (like vitamin E).

Techno, I already ordered a bag of Natural Balance Sweet potato and fish, so I might just go through that and see after that... I haven't gotten it yet though.

The only thing I'm iffy about is how much Evo to feed... OG says not much, and logically it should be less than SG, but they were already getting so little on SG...
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  #70  
Old September 23rd, 2006, 04:29 AM
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Glad to her your pups have made the change and fairly smooth Prin! Thumbs up for Evo
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  #71  
Old September 23rd, 2006, 10:35 AM
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Prin, If you want to do a complete switch the best way to do with the least digestive upset is to do a 24 hour fast.

I have had a few greyhounds here that arrived directly from the track adoption kennel , they are not fed anything 12hours before a haul inorder to avoid motionsickness vomitting and possioble aspiration which could lead to pneumonia, they get their first meal at the bathing site or at the foster home, none of my fosters or Maya had diarrhea with the fast. Because the greyhound come for several different tracks, it would be too hard to keep track of who feeds what and some simply use donated food, so we start them off right away with what we want to feed.


I know the protein levels you still have concerns about, I think the dogfoodprojects.com explains it nicely about the quality of the protein, especially the very last sentence really sums it up
Quote:
I guess in really simple terms you can compare it to the engine of a car and the type of fuel you use. Just because you use high octane gas in a car that doesn't need it, it's not going to do any damage, but if you use poor quality fuel, regardless whether it is high or low octane, there will be buildup in the engine that hampers performance and will eventually lead to damage.
Quote:
Consider a wolf in the wild, who will eat relatively little else but meat if they can help it - these animals don't get kidney diseases on the same scale domestic dogs do
http://www.dogfoodproject.com/index....e=protein_myth

My mom's shih tzu had always ate lower protein(Hill;s Science Diet regular and later the prescription for kidney) she dies of kidney failure and developed heart disease while on the prescription which is used as a dietary treatment for dogs that develop heart conditions, her teeth were not the cause since she had yearly dentals so why get deart disease on a food that is suppose to help in the treatment of- my answer is low protein diets cause muscle wasting and the heart is a muscle.


My choice would be the EVO RM, I simply do not feel fish based food that are fed daily is safe for dogs there is just too much toxins in fish for me to be comfortable with, humans must limit their intake of even wild salmon is only recommended 4 meals a months due to their absorption of pollutants like PCB's mercury and dioxins in their fat cells and flesh, and farmed salmon only 2 meals a months. I know about salmon is considered a great source of EPA fatty acids but you have to weigh the risks of these chemicals of feeding daily over the benefit of getting a great source of EPA fatty acids, it is the reason I won't feed fish based foods , I feel a bit added as an supplement to the food is sufficient, as long as they get sufficent fat they will have a nice coat, I don't give other oil supplements and Maya's black coat still gleams, which I think is pretty impressive for a breed that has no natural body oils like labs.

Dogs handle chemicals toxins like fish and humans they can't excrete these toxins in their urine, the liver/kidneys seperate it and then it gets moved and stored in the dogs fat cells, because greyhound have such low body fat this is a subject I had to learn about early on, as many flea products out there, and lawn pesticides are very toxic and dangerous to greyhounds as they don't have the same amount of fat cells to store toxins as other breeds so they hit the limits earlier and then the liver and kidneys start failing , may ecplain why bone cancer is the number one killer of greyhounds. Once I understood how toxins are handled by the body it had me changing what kind of products I use around the home and also I do not use heartworms with flea contol and will use a flea product only if needed which I needed only once in 5 years and one dose was used to treat all 3 of my own dogs. As an outdoor insecticide I use Diatomaceous earth rather than chemnical pesticides. The idea of my dogs being chemical storage facilities just does not appeal to me, so I do what I can to keep their exposure to chemicals as low as possible
I picked up a bag of EVO RM today 28.6lb bag/13kg was $74.99 before taxes, you might need 4 to 5 cups a day for your 2 dogs, I have found the feeding guidelines on most foods as being on the high side for the average pet being mine have lower energy outputs than labs I can feed all 4 on approx 4 1/2 cups a day for example for Winnie the guidelines suggest 1 1/2 cups as a pup, but 3/4 of a cup appears to be working ideal he has gained some weight though he is close to being full grown. Nikki is almost 9 years old 26 to 27 lbs gets the same her weight has held beautifully, vet is happy with her weight, I need to be careful not to gain too much weight as she has mild patella problems which so far she has shown no symptoms of, Sunny 82 to 84 lbs 8 years old and Maya 70lbs 4 years old get 1 1/2 cups if they have been active in the day I bump them up to 1 3/4 a day

As for kibble size my dogs don't sit there chewing and swallowing their food like humans do their molars are designed to tear food down to bite size pieces that can be swallowed, they are not flat top like ours that is designed to grind food up, so the smaller size simply aids the stomach in having to do less work to break it down so the less time break down the more time it has to absorb the nutrients, I think they came out later with the larger kibble in the regular EVO just to please customers I know when I picked up the larger kibble my gang was not all that impressed with it and fussed over the food it was surprising as all 3 dogs reacted the same I thought is was a fluke so tried another bag later on and same thing happened, they were much happier with their smaller bits.

Edited to add I started this yesterday before you posted about the switch, just finished today so glad the transition went okay

Last edited by OntarioGreys; September 23rd, 2006 at 10:39 AM.
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  #72  
Old September 23rd, 2006, 10:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperWanda
I thought absolute protein and % protein were different????

I think I'm going to burst a brain cell here people!!!!
The percent of protein is based on weight, a 100 gram piece of raw chicken is going to weigh less once it is cooked and some of the water is steamed off,

it may start if as 80% water but roasting may drop the water content to 50% so that chicken is now lighter in weight because the protein is a percent of weight the protein percent is now higher because that piece of chicken may weigh 75 grams now

Quote:
The AAFCO guidelines are formulated on a dry matter basis, so that all foods can be compared equally
which is why 42% protein in EVO seems like a lot but in reality it is closer to a raw diet than a food that has 26% protein which means most of the food is carbs not protein
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  #73  
Old September 23rd, 2006, 11:34 AM
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Thanks, OG... I was waiting for you to get your opinion in.

Day 2 is going ok so far... Boo isn't as thrilled about the evo today for some reason, but Jemma is still going nuts for it. Makes me wonder because Boo is more of an omnivore than Jemma, so maybe he needs something added... Maybe he just needs some extra veg or something.
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  #74  
Old September 23rd, 2006, 01:42 PM
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Same Prin..
Cider went wild for the evo rm/ NV/ DVP last night.. (she got it as her first real meal) This morning we had a NORMAL poop *gasp* and then for breakfast, I had to tell her to go eat.. I don't think she likes the tiny kibbles of the nv and evo rm..
But when she finally ate, she kept sniffing the dog food containers...
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  #75  
Old September 23rd, 2006, 03:55 PM
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Prin, glad to hear the switch is going well.

I have been toying with the idea of switching to EVO from the regular Innova that I am currently feeding. I checked the feeding guidelines and for an 80lb. dog it says you should feed more of the EVO than the regular.



EVO Red Meat

100% Dry Food

Moderate

3 1/4 cups

Yields 1583 Kcals
Recommended Kcals/day:
1611±10% (1450-1772) Total 1583 Kcals/day


Inactive

3 cups

Yields 1461 Kcals
Recommended Kcals/day:
1467±10% (1320-1613) Total 1461 Kcals/day


Active

3 5/8 cups

Yields 1765 Kcals
Recommended Kcals/day:
1778±10% (1600-1955) Total 1765 Kcals/day


Extremely Active

4 1/2 cups

Yields 2192 Kcals
Recommended Kcals/day:
2222±10% (2000-2444) Total 2192 Kcals/day



Innova Regular


Moderate

2 7/8 cups

Yields 1601 Kcals
Recommended Kcals/day:
1611±10% (1450-1772) Total 1601 Kcals/day


Inactive

2 5/8 cups

Yields 1462 Kcals
Recommended Kcals/day:
1467±10% (1320-1613) Total 1462 Kcals/day


Active

3 cups

Yields 1671 Kcals
Recommended Kcals/day:
1778±10% (1600-1955) Total 1671 Kcals/day


Extremely Active

3 7/8 cups

Yields 2158 Kcals
Recommended Kcals/day:
2222±10% (2000-2444) Total 2158
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  #76  
Old September 23rd, 2006, 04:05 PM
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I know! What's up with that?
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  #77  
Old September 23rd, 2006, 04:20 PM
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I was hoping you could explain.
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  #78  
Old September 23rd, 2006, 04:22 PM
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I dunno- and why are the kcals so much higher per cup in the regular? Think it's the carbs?
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  #79  
Old September 23rd, 2006, 04:22 PM
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oooh i can! i can! "no grains"

i keep telling folks grains are not species-appropriate and most dogs' tummies are happy not to have to work extra-hard to digest 'em....

ps: prin, if jemma has loose stools you can try feeding her less... since Evo's more digestible, eh?
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  #80  
Old September 23rd, 2006, 04:26 PM
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But techno, can you explain why you're supposed to feed more the the RM than the regular?

Yeah, I should feed her less, but yesterday, I think she got a cup and a bit all day...
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  #81  
Old September 23rd, 2006, 05:42 PM
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Quote:
can you explain why you're supposed to feed more the the RM than the regular?
because the regular EVO is 537 calories/cup, and the EVO RM is 487 calories/cup... you would need to feed more of the RM to arrive at the same caloric intake as the poultry recipe

if you compare the ingredients, the regular EVO has 5 meats listed before the first fat source, while the RM recipe only has 4 (if you count eggs as being a meat source). this might explain the difference in calories.

handy bonus chart (LOL!) http://www.naturapet.com/display.php...=1246&x=32&y=8
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Last edited by technodoll; September 23rd, 2006 at 05:47 PM.
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  #82  
Old September 23rd, 2006, 06:29 PM
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TD, the comparison is between the EVO RM and the regular Innova which has three meat sources before the fat and is 557 calories/cup.

So, because it has grains in it, that must mean the grains provide the extra calories therefore you need to feed less of it than the no grains high protein one.

http://www.naturapet.com/display.php...id4=&x=44&y=11

Last edited by rainbow; September 23rd, 2006 at 06:48 PM.
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  #83  
Old September 23rd, 2006, 08:23 PM
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Food for Boo

I did it today. I bought a bag of DVP Venison for the dogs. I wasn't sure which one to buy and decided that I would try the venison for a few weeks to give them a change. I don't think I will stay with it because I feel that "venison" is too vague.

Perhaps someone can answer something for me.
I do not feed raw but have read enough about it to know that variety is important. Shouldn't it be the same for kibble? When I fed WK it contained both salmon and bison. I supplement with pieces of beef and chicken and sardines along with cottage cheese etc... When I was looking for another kibble I found that most contained a single protein source.
Why is necessary in raw to feed variety yet in kibble a single protein source?
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  #84  
Old September 23rd, 2006, 09:24 PM
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rainbow, i think prin was asking the question in regards to EVO regular formula vs EVO Red Meat, which explains the answer I posted (to compare apples to apples, so to speak)

Copperbelle, you ask
Quote:
Why is necessary in raw to feed variety yet in kibble a single protein source?
this explains it better than i can right now... it's all about what makes sense

http://www.onlynaturalpet.com/Knowle...px?articleid=4

Quote:
In addition to freshness, variety is important in your companion’s diet. A more diverse diet is far more likely to provide complete nutrition than a “formulated” diet fed over and over again. While all pet foods on the market meet the AAFCO (Associatation of American Feed Control Officials) standards for “nutrition” for dogs and cats, that does not mean that any one of them are the ideal food for the life of your companion.

A good meal is a pleasurable experience for you, and the same should be true for your companion. However, even a good meal served over and over can become tiresome. You wouldn’t eat Corn Flakes at every meal for years at a time, why ask your companion to eat cereal, the SAME cereal every meal, every day for months or years at a time? It is detrimental to both your health and your companion’s to eat the same thing for months or years at every meal. Consuming the same food repeatedly over long periods of time can contribute to the development of food sensitivities and allergies.

More recently, some veterinarians specializing in feline medicine have stated that inflammatory bowel disease may develop, in part, because of food sensitivities caused by feeding one diet for over a year or two at a time. Feeding cats, who are obligate carnivores, a grain based diet has also been shown to contribute to the incidence of Feline Lower Urinary Tract Disease (FLUT), (Also known as Feline Urological Syndrome or FUS). The resulting dehydration over a long period of time contributes stress on the kidneys and lining of the urinary tract.

We recommend varying your companion’s diet regularly. If feeding a raw diet, you do not need to “transition” from one type of food to the next. Animals eating kibble, however, should be transitioned gradually over a week or two from one to the other. Cats should not eat dry kibble as a main portion of their diet.
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  #85  
Old September 23rd, 2006, 09:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by technodoll
rainbow, i think prin was asking the question in regards to EVO regular formula vs EVO Red Meat, which explains the answer I posted (to compare apples to apples, so to speak)

I dunno. The comparison I showed that she replied to said EVO RM and Innova Regular so I thought that's what she was referring to with her reply:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prin
I dunno- and why are the kcals so much higher per cup in the regular? Think it's the carbs?
Aren't "the carbs" she's referring to "the grains"?

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  #86  
Old September 23rd, 2006, 09:56 PM
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there are carbs in potatoes... EVO RM has potatoes higher up on the ingredients list... prin, what DID you mean? LOL!
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  #87  
Old September 23rd, 2006, 10:13 PM
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Ooops, I forgot about the potatoes. They're 4th in Innova EVO RM, 5th in Innova EVO T + C and 6th in Innova regular.
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  #88  
Old September 23rd, 2006, 11:16 PM
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lol I meant the Evo RM vs the innova regular. If the innova evo RM is so loaded and dense (plus has super high protein), why do I have to feed so much?

Coppperbelle, it's not necessary to have a single protein source. Some have a few, like the nature's variety ones and even the Evo RM. It's just easier for allergy dogs to have one source (which is what the DVP foods are supposed to be about).
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Old September 23rd, 2006, 11:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prin
lol I meant the Evo RM vs the innova regular. If the innova evo RM is so loaded and dense (plus has super high protein), why do I have to feed so much?
Well, for once I'm on the same wave length.

Okay, TD, do you have an answer for us?
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  #90  
Old September 23rd, 2006, 11:23 PM
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Quote:
If the innova evo RM is so loaded and dense (plus has super high protein), why do I have to feed so much?
ah! it's me who misunderstood the question, LOL!

but the answer remains the same. to achieve the same # of total calories per day, if food A (EVO RM) has less calories per cup than food B (Innova regular), then you have to feed more of food A. However, when you factor in the bioavailabitly of EVO you will understand why the poops are smaller and more compact... more food is absorbed and the quality of nutrients (meat protein vs grain protein) is kinder to the dog's digestive system and ultimately, overall health.
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