Joey growled at son

[StaceyB]

Although I don't use a clicker, I do explain how to use it in the advanced levels while teaching some fun complex tricks. The clicker is a replacement for your voice, good. All of my students start by using their voice. The clicker also helps to mark at a distance. Once the cues are reliable, the clicker is faded out and replaced with your voice. You did what you were supposed to when you added your voice back in.

[Lucky Rescue]

When its play time, let the boys take a rope toy (or something that they can get without having to get too close to his mouth) and play tug of war or fetch.

Please - no "tug" for children and dogs - especially a new, adult dog of unknown temperament who has already growled at the kids!

[jessi76]

Originally Posted by StaceyB

Although I don't use a clicker, I do explain how to use it in the advanced levels while teaching some fun complex tricks. The clicker is a replacement for your voice, good. All of my students start by using their voice. The clicker also helps to mark at a distance. Once the cues are reliable, the clicker is faded out and replaced with your voice. You did what you were supposed to when you added your voice back in.

yup, this is the direction we're moving in when we get up to level 3.. we're at the tail end of level 2 now, and already phased the clicker out of reliable behaviors. currently, only a hand signal is needed now for a sit and a down, and we don't click these anymore as our pup knows them. We click to learn new behaviors, and so far, it's worked beautifully!

[Pomermaniac]

I did not mean tug of war when its just the kids and the dog alone...I wouldn't leave them unattended at all right now because of what is going on.
The dog is obviously needing leadership. Play the tug of with you and the kids present. When the dog is pulling, get it to "out" and take the toy away. If it growls or barks don't give it back and send it away with a verbal reprimand. After you do this once, have the kids join you in sending the dog away next time. And then you can try it all over again...over and over until he just "outs" and understands that toys are not his they are yours.
Then teach the kids this exercise and be RIGHT THERE when they do it. At the first growl or bark send the dog away with the kids at first. When he isn't growling or barking then the kids can do it without you sending the dog away too. But don't leave them unattended yet.
Not until the dog recognizes its place in the pack.

[mona_b]

Originally Posted by LuckyRescue

Please - no "tug" for children and dogs - especially a new, adult dog of unknown temperament who has already growled at the kids!

You are so right LR.

My daughter always played this with the dogs.BUT,she was the one who ended the play.And not only that,they had zero aggression towards her.

This form a licenced trainer.

Benched
Some animal behaviorists theorize that tugging on a toy appeals to an animal's innate sense of hunting and fighting for survival. Therefore, it's best that dogs with aggressive or possessive tendencies not engage in tug-of-war. Also, dogs that show aggression towards humans should not be allowed to play.

[StaceyB]

All should be involved in the training of the dog, but at no time should there be more than one person giving any cue, verbal correction. Take turns yes, but a dog having to listen to more than one person at a time is too confusing and won't get you anywhere.

[Pomermaniac]

We are instilling pack order here, not teaching the dog to heel.
The dog must understand that the kids are "with" the mom, that they are above the dog and what they say is backed by the leader (mom). By both of them sending the dog away the dog learns that it must listen to the child.

Play must always be ended by the human. Teach it an out command so that it learns what to expect. To keep things fun though, when the dog outs the toy and sits quietly, toss it for him to fetch and chew on. This way he learns that its a great thing to listen to the leader--it means the leader will let him play with one of the leader's toys.

Dogs with aggressive or possessive tendencies NEED this training. (it is by no means the first step in working with a dog like this though!) They must learn that all toys and all food belongs to the leader, and the leader will provide everything that they have drives towards if the dog follows the leader's cues and commands.

[StaceyB]

Originally Posted by Pomermaniac

Dogs with aggressive or possessive tendencies NEED this training.

Confused. Tug?

[Joey.E.CockersMommy]

Thanks for all the great training advice I am going to try and answer questions as best I can here.
By Pomerianian

Is he crate trained? If he is, where is his crate (what room)?

he will go in the crate in the car automatically, he will go in the crate when he goes to sleep, but needs a little shove to go in. He will sleep in the crate fine until morning and will stay quiet until someone comes to let him out. His crate is in the kitchen.

Pomeraninac again

The point of the prong is to come away from yanking and pulling and hard corrections. You see, Stacy, with a prong all you need is a slight squeeze...its barely noticeable. I do not make them yelp or whine when I give this correction. This is why its important to find a good trainer because the owner must know exactly where to place the collar and obviously how to use it...its not a no-brainer, it must be taught by an experienced individual.

I am actually familar with a prong collar we used it on our other dog to stop from pulling. Out of a choke chain, halti and prong collar. The prong collar worked the best.He would not pull at all with it on. I am not sure whether I will used it on Joey. I think he may be responsive enough to training to maybe be able to get by without one. He is already being responsive to the short training sessions we are doing with him with the kids. Right now we are making him sit and stay. I go first then the kids and I make sure Joey is looking right at them.

Lucky rescue=

Please - no "tug" for children and dogs - especially a new, adult dog of unknown temperament who has already growled at the kids!

I have heard that tug a war is not a good idea with dogs. So I most likely will not be encouraging this with Joey.

Mona B=Question,

was the previous owner a female?

yes, there was a female owner her husband and four kids and eight dogs. I believe four of them are puppies.

I know that dogs tend to be closer to one person in the family.And to be honest,it doesn't seem that he is being possessive of you.He just seems to feel safer with you for one reason or another.Remember,you don't know how Joeys life was before you got him.Did you ask the breeder if he acted this way with her kids?Maybe Joey was only around the breeders kids and not others.

The owner said that out of all her dogs Joey was the most affectionate with the kids. He slept on thier beds every night. I did mention the growling and she said no it was not normal. She said that Joey had issues with the male dogs in the house.

=Tenderfoot

We were being interviewed the other day about 'gimmicks' and the conclusion we came up with is if you are a good trainer you shouldn't need any of it. If all of these 'gimmicks' were working so well why are there just as many dogs being sent to shelters as ever

So how can we be good trainers so Joey is well adjusted and fits into our family without any issues of aggression or possessiveness.

So the general message here that I am getting is that Joey needs to know he is bottom of the pole, he must listen to everyone in our family including the kids, he must know that his toys are ours and we give them to him on our terms.

[Pomermaniac]

yuppers. The good old game of tug of war is important for teaching an aggressive/dominant dog that you are the leader and the food and toys are yours.
But as I said before, it's definately NOT the first step!

[mona_b]

Originally Posted by Pomermaniac

We are instilling pack order here, not teaching the dog to heel.

Exactly,so why mention the Prong.

Now my question is,is this the same Son who tried to pick him up?

If so,then maybe when this son picked him up,then tried to get the ball,maybe Joey thought he was going to hurt him again.Just a thought.

[Pomermaniac]

Exactly, Joey...
Just think "like a dog" and let your own common sense guide you...remember this isn't rehabilitating a criminal or working with a mentally ill/challenged person. Its just a dog...dogs are simple to understand and they easily understand "dog cues". Its not that he wants to be the leader--he might just be waiting for you and your kids to show him that you are going to be leader.

[tenderfoot]

Teach 'drop it' and 'take it' before you do any 'tug of war' games to ensure that you win. These are respect games.

It's just like being a good parent. There are rules to be obeyed. The kids who are more challenging require the parent to stay on them more to make sure they follow the rules. Joey needs strong, consistent parenting.

Too much recess can be a killer to a dogs manners and attitude. In recess he is in charge of his own world 24/7 and calling the shots. Time with a human who asks him to do lots of things through out the day keeps his mind busy and reminds him who is in charge. Little children usually don't have the ego force or mind set to be able to do this effectively. So the parents need to be there to ensure success.

He needs to be taught how to make good choices in his behavior and should be corrected for the bad ones. A correction can be as simple as your tone, your eyes, your body language. But you must be effective in the moment. Do enough to get the job done but not so much that you intimidate and not so little that he blows you off. Having him on the leash in the house empowers your words and ensures that everything works out in your favor.

[Pomermaniac]

THE PRONG WAS MENTIONED IN THE CONTEXT OF OBEDIENCE TRAINING. However, when the dog is able to understand the "no" or negative verbal cue and what's expected, the prong can be brought into play under certain circumstances...but this is more of a one on one thing not for a group exercise.

I don't know why you asked that question without completely reading the post. If you do not agree, thats fine.
But do not speak badly about something just because you don't believe in it.

The prong collar is an easy target for pointless criticism. I am not interested in an arguement.
Yes, many people abuse training tools. This includes e-collars, prongs, slip collars, Haltis, harnesses, and regular flat collars. Just because the prong looks harsh does not make it harsh. The person at the other end of lead is in charge of how harshly they treat the dog. The prong can not be harsh or gentle...it is a piece of metal...it just exists. Hypodermic Needles are scary and look like they hurt a lot! But used correctly they save lives and keep millions of animals and people healthy. If they are abused they can cause serious damage or death. But that doesn't mean we should get rid of needles, it means that the person using them must know what they are doing.

The human is ultimately responsible for learning how to adjust and properly use the training tools that they select for the dog.

[StaceyB]

Dogs will follow and accept being placed lower in the pack but given the chance to lead, they will take it in a second.

[Pomermaniac]

VERY WELL SAID, TENDERFOOT!!!!

[Pomermaniac]

There is no rule as to all dogs want this and no dogs want that.
Not all dogs want to be leader.
Each dog has had different experiences and has a different personality. All dogs are different.

[Lucky Rescue]

Tug is a fine game for an adult to play with a dog he/she knows and trusts.

I play tug with my dog. She is very submissive, and already knows the "out" command. I would have no hesitation to allow a kid to tug with her.

In Joey's case, I would not allow this game. The dog is new in the home, doesn't know the rules, may be intolerant of kids, and needs lots of training and observation before allowing the kids to tug with him, even with adult supervision. For a dog who is dominant in any way, or who sees kids as inferiors or equals, this could rapidly escalate into something ugly.

I would prefer seeing the kids practice obedience with him, and for playing, to throw a ball - not do something that will put the kids in direct competition with him.

I personally also see nothing wrong with a prong collar, humanely used by someone who understands how to use it and in conjunction with training.

I have used one on an adult foster dog who would literally pull me off my feet.

[StaceyB]

I tell my students that they can play tug with their dog as long as he/she plays by the rules. When I say give, it is immediate otherwise game over. The game should never be all tug but a little give and take added in to the mix.
If a dog has shown signs of aggression, I would not suggest this game because though it is a game it is competition for an object.

[Joey.E.CockersMommy]

I hate to say it but it just happened again. My son went to pet Joey and he growled, I gave him a firm no and he stopped right of way. Then I got my son to say no to him as sternly as he knows how. He did and was not upset this time like the first time.
It didn't appear that Joey was guarding anything until I realised he was sitting with my husbands CD case so assume he was guarding it not one of his usual toys. I am trying to get him into obedience training right of way.
I am determined to fix this problem with Joey so will be playing close attention to the advice in this thread. Hopefully soon we can find a decent trainer that can help us out. Other then this aggression over his possessions everything else is fine.

[StaceyB]

You can resolve this and all will be fine. You sound as if you are prepared to fix the problem.

[Joey.E.CockersMommy]

Yes definatley will get it worked out. Obedience training at the rec centre doesnt start until Sept 22, I am hoping to get him into something in the next two weeks the sooner the better. We are going to contact the owner of the kennel that Timber used to stay at and our vet they may know of some trainers that they can reccomend.

[BoxerRescueMTL]

I HIGHLY suggest purchasing "The Culture Clash" by Jean Donaldson. She is the founder of and instructs at The San Francisco SPCA Academy for Dog Trainers, which has gained a reputation as the Harvard for dog trainers. You can order it on Amazon.ca and it'll get to your place very fast. It's an awesome book and it'll help you understand your dog and how he "works". And it's an easy read. She's also written a great book called "MINE! A Guide to Resource Guarding in Dogs" if it turns out that this is indeed what Joey doing.
Also, you should read about Calming Signals at http://www.turidrugaas.com There, you can learn how to interpret your dog's body language to see when he is stressed. This will help you tell when Joey is about to react, before it happens. You can also learn ways to calm him using your own body language. Turid Rugaas is a world renowned canine behaviourist.

Good luck! You can work through this

[Joey.E.CockersMommy]

Boxer rescue I took your advice and ordered the book. I will get it in 7 - 11 days. Decided not to pay for the express shippping.

[BoxerRescueMTL]

Oh that's awesome! Let me know how it goes I will be following the thread.

[Joey.E.CockersMommy]

I was just reading up on NILIF nothing in life is free. I believe this was mentioned in another thread. Someone from the cocker site reccommended it to me. Her dog had similar issues as Joey and she said it worked well for her. I have actually started to incorporate it today. I started by ignoring Joey when he came and demanded my attention. It didnt take him long to walk away. I then called him back a few moments later on my terms. We also did some obedience training in the back yard. My son was able to make him sit and stay on his own (supervised of course) and he came when my son called him.
Has anyone used this method, Joey seems to be responding to it right now.

[StaceyB]

Standard positive techniques. Ignore attention getting behaviour.

[Joey.E.CockersMommy]

As of today Joey has had his priveleges taken away. He is no longer allowed on the couch, but must sit on the floor to be petted and must obey the sit command first. Which he is doing without a treat he also responds very fast if I snap my fingers or clap my hands. Before he is petted he must obey the sit stay command which he is also doing without a treat. Then he gets lots of praise when he does.
I am doing this to let him know his place and to let him know that we do things on our term not his. I realise before he just would seek our attention on his own terms and we would respond because he was so cute and we couldn't resist. Which I think has let to problems. Mostly with him putting me as his owner of preference and virtually ignoring all other members of our household. For example Joey sat by the door the whole time while I went to get my haircut yesterday and wanted nothing to do with the other members of the family. Also last night I took Joey out to meet some friends and when we got home he sat outside my door while I went to sleep ignoring my husband who was still up.
Another issue we are having with Joey is he will not go outside to go to the bathroom without me he just waits at the door. The other issues he seems to be responding to but he will literally cry at the door until I go out with him. I don't know whether to let him cry (it is very hot on or deck and I do not want Joey out there for long) He goes for about 3 walks a day now plus at least one outing in the car a day. He usually goes on the walks but sometimes he needs to go when we are home and are not always able to go out with him at that moment.
Do I need to always go outside with Joey or is it acceptable for him to go on his own as well.

[Lucky Rescue]

You've had this dog how long? A few days? He's not a little puppy who can adapt to all these changes, travelling, new family etc in a few hours. He's a 6 year old dog whose whole world has been turned upside down, he's lost everything and everyone he knew, and he needs time to adjust.

It could take a month or two. I would not be taking him out to visit people at the moment. He doesn't know if you're going to leave him there, which could be why he's so clingy and this uncertainty can cause anxiety.

Take him outside to go pee for now. He's still very unsure of everything,and needs a solid routine to make him understand he's part of the family now.

Eventually, certainly he can go out on his own, but for now he needs some reassurance that he's not going to be left outside in this strange place he's in. When he sees that every time he goes out, he comes back in, he should have more confidence.

After all, his first family "left" him, so he has no reason to think you won't do the same.

[StaceyB]

He should really get used to things the way they will be. Even though he may be having a rough time adjusting to the new rules/ routine due to his life being turned upside it will be harder if he gets away with things now, or certain rules are set up just to be changed in a month or so. Make your rules and stick by them, he will adjust. If you choose to take him out, take advantage of it and train him to go in a particular place, clean up will be easier. It is quite possible that he grew up being walked on leash to go to the washroom. He is also bonding quickly to you, you are his security. If you choose to go out with him I would have the rest of the family do it for the next while as well as other things that are important to him to round out the bonding with other family members.