Neurological Issue? Birth Complication Issue?

[totallyjudy]

Hi. Judy here. Brand new to the Forums.

I have a new older puppy, Whisper, who turns 1 year old on the 21st. She is a Lhasa Apso of quality breeding from a reputable breeder. On her sire's pedigree, one of her uncles is "Ta Sen Bond James Bond" (James) who is probably the #1 Lhasa Apso this year. Her Great-Grandfather is "Ta Sen Victory Peyote" (Pete) who was the Lhasa Apso BOB at Westminster for 2-3 years straight. I believe Pete's daughter "Lulu" has been the BOB at Westminster for the past 2 years. So this isn't a BYB puppy.

Whisper has a health condition or issue that is thus far unexplained. It has been ongoing even when she was still with the breeder for the first 9 months.

What happens is that Whisper will suddenly stop what she is doing, and scratch/paw frantically at the left side of her face, on the muzzle and below the eye/ear area. She cries and whimpers while doing this, and the duration is between 2-5 seconds. Then she stops and resumes whatever she was doing.

The breeder had her checked by her Vet, and he did not find anything. She did tell me before Whisper even came to me that she did this, but that no reason was found. So it isn't something has recently started due to a new location, climate, dog food, etc. etc.

Whisper has been with me for 3 months. I had accepted the scratching and pawing at her face as something that she does. But I finally decided that I can't allow this to go on for another 15 years. I have no idea what could possibly be causing her to sudden have to attack the side of her face.

The only thing I can think of is something the breeder shared with me after Whisper had been with me a few weeks:

"There is more to the Whisper story which will tell you how hard it was for me to let her go and how much I trusted that you were the right person for her. This girl would not have been trusted to just anyone. I left home to set up equipment at a dog show and intended to be gone about 4.5 hours. I thought Mira might have puppies that evening and asked Lynn to check on her periodically. We work only 4 blocks from home and have relaxed schedules so he was able to do that. The last time he checked her was over his noon hour. He went back to work at 1:00 and all was well -- no nesting, scratching, contractions, etc. I got home at 2:00 and there were 2 puppies nursing and one lying in a sac. Mira was paying no attention to that puppy. I just knew it was dead because the sac was cool to the touch and not a recently delivered puppy. I tore the sac open and (this is gross) put my mouth over the puppy's nose and mouth and suctioned fluids then gave CPR breaths while massaging her tiny chest and body. In the midst of all that I managed a phone call and got Lynn home to help deliver the other puppies. I finally gave up on the "dead" puppy and put her down on towel. When I placed her down, I heard a tiny sound, which I thought was a "death rattle" because she was not moving. But, determined, I went back to the CPR and sure enough the little girl who became our Whisper, suddenly began to cry and move. I was in tears. Such a miracle."

I am wondering if during that time in the sac before the breeder resuscitated her if possibly there was some damage to a nerve or other related issue? I have considered that is might be an OCD issue, but I can't diagnose that.

Has anyone here experienced anything like this? If so, how did you handle it? Any thoughts about what might be causing her to do this? She does it several times a day (when I am home, at least).

I do have an appointment scheduled for Whisper to see my favorite Vet, and he is also the Vet who did her initial exam that was required by the breeder after I took possession of her. I had only had her for 3 days at that time, and had not witnessed the scratching/pawing yet. But she was pretty quiet also, as she had just been separated from her littermates and was in a new environment.

I am not asking for a diagnosis from anyone, as that is what I will want from the Vet when we see him this next Saturday morning. I was just hoping that maybe someone else had experienced something like this with one of their dogs and might be able to share something with me.

Thanks for any input!

Judy

[Dog Dancer]

Sorry I don't have any answers for you, although your thought that damage may have occurred is certainly possible I would assume. I just wanted to bump this up in case anybody else had an opinion. Best of luck to you with your sweet little Whisper.

[totallyjudy]

Originally Posted by Dog Dancer

Sorry I don't have any answers for you, although your thought that damage may have occurred is certainly possible I would assume. I just wanted to bump this up in case anybody else had an opinion. Best of luck to you with your sweet little Whisper.

Thanks, DD!

I appreciate the bump. I've been going over tomorrow morning's Vet visit in my head, trying to decide if I start with the birth issue, or give him the problem and then tell him about the birth issue. Sheesh.

Sweet little Whisper gets a bath, etc. tonight. I can't take a full coated dog to the Vet without a grooming!

I'm actually feeling both excited and nervous about the Vet appointment in the morning. And I don't know why. It's not the money factor (not that I have any). I have credit cards with a zero balance that I can use if it gets serious. Afraid of the good, bad, or ugly? I just don't know.

Judy

[Myka]

My first thought before even reading the whole story was "mini-mal seizure". How often does she do this?

[totallyjudy]

Originally Posted by Myka

My first thought before even reading the whole story was "mini-mal seizure". How often does she do this?

Thanks, Myka.

I've never had a dog who experienced any type of seizure. I definitely have some research to do before tomorrow morning.

Whisper does this multiple times a day/night. She does not do it after any specific activity or at any specific time.

It is exactly what other dogs do when they have allergies, a mat, fleas, etc. and have to intensely scratch.

Judy

[Myka]

I would bet on mini-mal seizure. Very difficult to diagnose just on symptoms. If you could get it on video...preferrably before it starts that could really help. Or...just give her the anti-seize medication and see if it goes away.

[renegaderuby]

Could be birth issue, could be a mini seizure. But My thoughts are..could there possibly be a retained baby tooth on that side. Or a small crack in her tooth, or could she have a very teeny tiny splinter lodged in her lip...(no telling really).
I think having the vet witness her do this (video) would be your first step. And having quotes from the previous owner as to what happened when whisper was born as your second.

I would NOT give her any medication for a seizure until you know for sure if it is one.

[totallyjudy]

Originally Posted by Myka

I would bet on mini-mal seizure. Very difficult to diagnose just on symptoms. If you could get it on video...preferrably before it starts that could really help. Or...just give her the anti-seize medication and see if it goes away.

Myka, it is going to be difficult to get it on video, as there are absolutely no warning signs, and the scratching/pawing only lasts 1-3 seconds and she's finished with it. She has absolutely no after-effects.

Originally Posted by renegaderuby

Could be birth issue, could be a mini seizure. But My thoughts are..could there possibly be a retained baby tooth on that side. Or a small crack in her tooth, or could she have a very teeny tiny splinter lodged in her lip...(no telling really).
I think having the vet witness her do this (video) would be your first step. And having quotes from the previous owner as to what happened when whisper was born as your second.

I would NOT give her any medication for a seizure until you know for sure if it is one.

She had 2 of her baby canines that did not fall out when her adult canines came in. They were extracted when she was spayed in August.

I have poked, prodded and examined her entire mouth, gums, teeth, muzzle; examined every inch of that side of her face. I thought that possibly there was something painful causing her to scratch like that, but I can actually pull all of the hair on that side of her face as hard as I can, with no pain reaction or response. I can lift her by the hair on that side of her face with absolutely no protest. She thinks I am playing with her.

It is completely different than when one of the dogs get a foxtail under their skin, or a goathead on a foot pad. They favor that area and it is pretty easy to tell that there is something wrong. Even hot spots are obvious.

She plays as rough and tough as any 1 year old puppy with the 4 and 5 year olds (3 of them). They pull her hair, ears. tail, and just about every part of her body at the same time. They tag team her and she's loving every second. There is not a squeal or yip of pain from her when they are very roughly play-attacking her on her head and face area.

Actually, Whisper is the one who initiated all of the play. Before she arrived 3 months ago, the "Youngers" (as I call the 4 & 5 y/o dogs, including Whisper), the Youngers were not playing at all. Once she recovered from her spay, and found her niche in the pack, she started initiating rough play every single day, and every night in the living room. She is delighted and happy and has more energy than any of them (duh, she's a puppy). She is nimble and has extremely quick reactions. She follows rapid hand movements in front of her face because it's a fun game.

I don't have any seizure medications, and I will not treat her for anything. I have no idea what type of tests the Vet might need to do.

It is very weird because it's something that she has been doing for close to a year - I don't know when she actually began doing it. Since she turns 1 y/o next Saturday, it's actually probably been less than a year, since I doubt she would have been able to scratch as a newborn. The Breeder's Vet could not find anything wrong with that side of her face or ear.

She's all bathed/groomed, teeth brushed, ears cleaned, and ready to go to the Vet in the morning. I think I'll have her fasting just in case the Vet wants to do any bloodwork.

One other weird thing that happened when Whisper was born. And this could be irrelevant, or could possibly be a cause. The Breeder and her husband were relocating the mother and puppies so they could clean the whelping box. This was the mother's first litter. When the husband was placing Whisper by the mother, she was startled and tried to bite the husband's hand, but instead she bit Whisper! And it wasn't just a light bite, she actually bit off the ear flap on the opposite side of her head. As small as Lhasa Apso newborns are, the flap was probably only about 1/2" and it didn't take much for her to bite it off completely. It is not noticeable as long as I keep her headfall long and it covers the ear. On her initial exam with my Vet, he said I just need to be careful to keep the ear dry. I wouldn't think that the missing ear flap would be associated with the scratching/pawing issue, because many dog breeds have their ears cropped. Whisper's ear crop was just done by her mother!

Oh, dear... Like Rosanne Rosannadanna said, "It's always something."

Judy

[Myka]

Originally Posted by totallyjudy

Myka, it is going to be difficult to get it on video, as there are absolutely no warning signs, and the scratching/pawing only lasts 1-3 seconds and she's finished with it. She has absolutely no after-effects.

My thought is you will have to follow her around for the better part of a day recording for 3-4 minutes, stopping, then continuing to record. Just stop and restart every once in awhile so that you don't have to sift through 5 hours of video. Hopefully you will get lucky and catch it. Even if you have to spend several hours, it might be worthwhile.

[totallyjudy]

Originally Posted by Myka

My thought is you will have to follow her around for the better part of a day recording for 3-4 minutes, stopping, then continuing to record. Just stop and restart every once in awhile so that you don't have to sift through 5 hours of video. Hopefully you will get lucky and catch it. Even if you have to spend several hours, it might be worthwhile.

Myka,

That's a great idea. I don't have a video camera, but I'm pretty sure I can find someone who has one I can borrow.

I'm watching some videos on YouTube of dogs having petit mal seizures, and Whisper's issue does not resemble their symptoms. At least not that I have seen so far. I am still looking for different videos to see if there is one that is even remotely similar.

I appreciate the suggestions. I'm pretty much lost on this issue - sigh.

[totallyjudy]

Whisper was examined by the Vet and he checked her over thoroughly. He could not find anything wrong with her. (Yippee?!) He said that he could refer me to a Neurologist, but I didn't get the feeling that he thought it was something I *should* do. It wasn't like he said, "I highly recommend that you take Whisper to a Neurologist." It was more like it was an option I could pursue, but he wasn't overly concerned.

He checked her ears, teeth, mouth, facial structure, legs, knees, and every place else he could check. There was no evidence of any nerve problem on either side of her face, no drooping or imbalance, etc.

He said, as those in this thread also suggested, that if I could get a video of her when this occurs, that it could help him. But other than that, he believes it is just a facial nerve twinge or zap. He was concerned because of the pain it causes Whisper for those few seconds, but overall said that she was fine.

One of my concerns and reasons for taking Whisper in for an exam was that possibly there was some hidden health issue (cancer?) that I might be ignoring if I did not have the Vet check her out. I would have felt so guilty had something serious have come up a year or two down the road, and it led back to these scratching/pawing episodes and I heard, "WHY didn't you have her examined by a Vet if you knew she was having a problem?"

I even mentioned this during the Vet visit, and the Vet Tech (who sees me in there regularly) replied, "Yeah, like that is gonna happen to one of your dogs! You are the same as me, if there is a problem, you show up 45 minutes before we open up just to make sure we can fit your dog in!" Yeah, busted on that one!

It was $55 well spent. I have a bit more peace of mind. I will borrow a video camera and some weekend just camp out near her, ready to capture those 3 seconds. Actually, if it is a weekend, I'll get multiple 3-second recordings, which will be even better. I have to take Whisper to have a heartworm test in January, so I should be able to have plenty of videos to show the Vet by then.

I realize that just because the Vet couldn't find anything today, does not rule out that there might still be problem. I am not going to just believe that everything is going to be fine for the next 15 years or more. Whisper will be monitored to see if there is a change in intensity or frequency, plus I will video tape these episodes to show the Vet. If deemed necessary, I will get Whisper to a Neurologist. I trust this very *anal* Vet because he doesn't overlook anything. He catches things other Vets miss. He reviews the chart and past tests, etc. before even entering the exam room. If there is something to be found, he will find it. That is why I was willing to wait the extra weeks so that I could have Whisper examed by him. The Vet Tech shared with me that she now takes all of her dogs to this Vet (there are 2 other Vets in this clinic). She said he may be difficult to work with sometimes, but he is an excellent Vet because of the very reasons he can be difficult to work with! I like that he isn't casual about what he is doing. Every animal he sees is the most important patient at that moment and gets his full attention.

I sincerely appreciate the input and feedback from the members of this forum. If there is a change in Whisper's (non)-diagnosis, I will let you know. After I takes some videos, I will try to figure out how to upload them to YouTube and then share them here, so that you can see what is going on with Whisper.

Thanks again!!

Judy

P.S. A big BRAG - Whisper's littermate sister, Raven, competed in the American Lhasa Apso Club's National and Regional Specialtythis past week. She was moved up from Puppy Class because she finished her championship last weekend. In the Regional she was awarded Select Bitch! We are so proud. And... Whisper's Uncle James (Ta Sen Bond James Bond) was awarded Best of Breed in The National Specialty. Extra proud! Watch for James to be the Lhasa Apso at Westminster in the Non-Sporting Group in February .

[Myka]

for the brags!! Good to see people advancing a breed!

I am glad (I think? haha) that the vet didn't find anything. He wouldn't be able to "find" epilepsy. Did you ask him about that? I will wait to see the videos...good luck, it will test your patience!

[totallyjudy]

Originally Posted by Myka

I am glad (I think? haha) that the vet didn't find anything. He wouldn't be able to "find" epilepsy. Did you ask him about that? I will wait to see the videos...good luck, it will test your patience!

No, I did not ask him about epilepsy. Last night, after the petit mal suggestions here, I watched multiple videos of dogs having petit and grand mal seizures. One video lasted 9-1/2 minutes. I watched videos of different breeds and sizes and types of seizures. It was a long night of video watching and online epilespy research, but I wanted to make sure that I saw as many videos as possible, and read as much as possible, to see if there was anything close to what Whisper is experiencing.

There wasn't. I kept trying to find something, but I couldn't. Obviously, epilepsy can't and shouldn't be ruled out. The diagnosis isn't over until it's over. And it ain't over. The Vet did say that a video would help him with his diagnosis - so that he can see exactly what is happening (as has been posted in this thread). So I will test my patience and capture those 1-3 second episodes! Whisper may file stalking charges against me, but in a court of law, I'd prevail. "It is for the good of the companion animal to have the video surveillance. Case dismissed."

And as I write this, I just realized that Whisper has not had a single episode today (as of now anyway). She is sleeping in the middle of the living room floor, on her back, legs spread wide (the little vamp).

Judy

[pbpatti]

So Judy??? where is the picture of this little VAMP? huh? She has a great mom who wants only the very best for her. patti

[renegaderuby]

Originally Posted by pbpatti

So Judy??? where is the picture of this little VAMP? huh? She has a great mom who wants only the very best for her. patti

Well those suggestions of mine were thoughts. Its good to know you have a VERY throurough vet, and that your muppet (not that that is her name..just a pet name I use sometimes)...will be checked from head to toe. (literally)...video should get it figured out.
Hugs...we all love our babies..and when its something we cant figure out. IT DRIVES US BATTY!

[totallyjudy]

Originally Posted by pbpatti

So Judy??? where is the picture of this little VAMP? huh? She has a great mom who wants only the very best for her. patti

Patti,

Dang it! I should have gotten my camera and taken a picture of her "assuming the position." I believe that is the first time that I have ever seen her sleeping like that.

Here is a picture of Whisper's "sweet and innocent" look:

http://www.pets.ca/forum/album.php?a...pictureid=4735

But don't let the picture fool you. She's pretty wild. Here is a link to this *VAMP* singing about her TRAMP. Peg is a Lhasa Apso in the movie, which is quite a coincidence. Peg must be Whisper's role model...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFErE...eature=related

Thanks for the kind words, Patti. I do want the best for her and the other 5 Lhasa Apso Munchkins.

Judy

[totallyjudy]

Originally Posted by renegaderuby

Well those suggestions of mine were thoughts. Its good to know you have a VERY throurough vet, and that your muppet (not that that is her name..just a pet name I use sometimes)...will be checked from head to toe. (literally)...video should get it figured out.
Hugs...we all love our babies..and when its something we cant figure out. IT DRIVES US BATTY!

RR,

Thoughts, suggestions... NOT a diagnosis since we don't diagnosis online, right? I like thoughts. As a matter of fact, I have them every day!

Your muppet is my munchkin. Potato - Potahto.

Yes, my Vet of choice is very thorough. He didn't just pet her on the head and say, "She looks good to me." He was totally hands on - manipulating legs, elbows, paws and even between the pads and nails on her feet, while analyzing what he was feeling and seeing. I could see the total concentration in his face. I was very satisfied with his physical examination of her and the questions he was asking me. The only things he didn't do was a pelvic and anal exam. No "turn your head and cough!" Oh, wait. Whisper is a bitch, not a dog.

I do love my Munchkins. They bring me so much joy and unconditional love. AND... it is MY responsibility to make sure that they get the medical care they need and I take that seriously.

My "thought" remains that she has a nerve along that lower portion of her face that zaps her every once in a while and it causes her just enough pain to make her scratch to try to make it go away and also to whine/cry out while scratching. But I don't have D.V.M. after my name, so I can only conjecture. (sigh)

The Vet did say that if Whisper was shaved down he could really examine the area. My reply? "I have no problem with her being shaved down." And I was serious - because her coat would grow back in. But I guess we'll hold off on the shaving until after I get the video.

Judy

[Shaykeija]

Wow those are some pretty little beasties... I love the Lhasatude those little ones have...I have 3 Shih Tzus and a teri poo....Are you showing her?

[pbpatti]

Your furfamily is stunning Judy. I have not seen a black Llhasa before, I can imagine her on her back with all of tha flowing coat lying around her. Thanks for the link to your album so I could see them. patti

[totallyjudy]

Originally Posted by Shaykeija

Wow those are some pretty little beasties... I love the Lhasatude those little ones have...I have 3 Shih Tzus and a teri poo....Are you showing her?

Thanks! I think they are pretty and handsome, also! And Lhasatude? In abundance!!

No, I am not showing Whisper. I purchased her as a pet, with a spay clause in the contract. I'm also not a breeder, so I only have spay/neutered dogs/cats. But going back to the BRAG - Whisper's sister Raven kicked butt at the National Specialty this past week!!

I actually did show one of my Lhasas (Sophie) 4 years ago - once. Well, 3 classes in one week. It was the 2007 National Specialty, and her breeder wanted me to show her, since I was going to bring her with me anyway. She was scheduled to be spayed 4 weeks later, right after her 1 year birthday, as that is what the breeder had requested (a growth plate thing). I had never shown a dog. Sophie had more experience than I did. I took one handling class with her so I could learn to stack and what gait to use going around the ring.

At The National, there was also a late night - after dinner/wine (lots of wine!) informal handling class given to me by 2 judges (who she was not entered under) in the hallway of the hotel.

In the first 2 classes, Sophie did not place, but both Judges moved her up to the 5th position. I was proud! But the kicker was the actual National Specialty class (puppy 9-12) where she was entered along with her 2 littermate sisters. I just did the best I could, and Sophie was strutting her stuff with lots of Lhasatude. Lo and behold - Sophie took 3rd Place! What a coup. On top of that, her littermate sisters took 1st and 2nd. We swept that class! And that was the end of Sophie and my show experience. There were a lot of unhappy breeders when they learned I was going to spay her instead of finishing her and breeding her. Oh, well. I bought her as a pet, and that was it. There are plenty of breeders - they don't need me. And Sophie's breeder had duplicated that specific breeding a couple of times with excellent results.

Here is a link to Sophie’s National Specialty photos. She was beautiful and spectacular, and if the Breeder (shown in the photos with the 2 sisters) would have been showing Sophie – Sophie probably would have placed 1st. At least that is what another judge told me. But the problem previously was that Sophie would not show for the Breeder, that is why she went to me instead of the show home she had been promised to.

http://www.pets.ca/forum/album.php?albumid=698

Originally Posted by pbpatti

Your furfamily is stunning Judy. I have not seen a black Llhasa before, I can imagine her on her back with all of tha flowing coat lying around her. Thanks for the link to your album so I could see them. patti

I have a "thing" for Black Lhasa Apsos. My first several were Blacks, and I just gravitate towards them. I've had 6 Black Lhasa Apsos in my 23 years of having this breed. The others were/are black/white, gold/white parti, gold sable, cream sable.

It is always lovely to see any of the coated dogs laying down with their coat spread around them like a cape, or Christmas tree skirt!


Judy

[totallyjudy]

Originally Posted by Myka

I am glad (I think? haha) that the vet didn't find anything. He wouldn't be able to "find" epilepsy. Did you ask him about that? I will wait to see the videos...good luck, it will test your patience!

Myka,

I've been thinking about Whisper's exam yesterday, and about why the Vet and I didn't discuss epilespy. And I have continued to ponder that.

The reason I had scheduled the exam was because of my concern that there might be more to Whisper's scratching her face than just an OCD kind of thing. And more importantly, because of the problem when she was born and left in the sac and almost died. That is what I impressed to the Vet - was there some brain/nerve damage that might have been occured before she was revived?

There was an entire hour with neither of the breeders present and 3 puppies had delivered - 2 were nursing. It was obvious that Whisper in the sac was not just recently delivered as she was cool. How long of a time period was she out of the womb without sufficient oxygen? She wasn't breathing when the breeder found her.

Was her scratching this specific spot on her face related to her birth circumstances? And that is what the Vet was checking for. Some type of nerve or neurological damage. Was there some other issue causing the scratching?

I don't know why he didn't suggest epilepsy. Maybe because I told him that there is nothing occuring right before she begins scratching and cries out, and after the 1-3 seconds, she is ready to play or resume activity. There is no down time or recovery time after the scratching.

It's all gonna be in the videos that I take. I still am not happy with knowing that she has 1-3 seconds of some type of pain several times a day. The Vet isn't happy about the pain issue either.

I've never taken videos with these new-fangled video cameras. Way back in the day, I did take 16mm film in black/white (am I dating myself?).

The only seizure I have ever witnessed was with one of my Lhasas was probably 15 years ago when one of the males was bitten by a centipede. At least that is what I suspected, since he was at my neighbor's house and they found a dead centipede in the dog's water dish.

This dog, Shadow, my soul mate, had just come back home with me, and was in the kitchen. I suddenly noticed that his body was convulsing/spasming, his eyes were glazing, he was incoherent, and his mouth was open and he was drooling. It scared the crap out of me. I called another neighbor who is very animal health saavy, and she told me she would be right over and we were going to the Vet. She called the Vet, told her we were enroute, then came and picked me up. I had Shadow cradled in my arms. My friend Jennifer said, "Buckleup and hold on - we're gonna be driving fast." That was an understatement. She flew the 14 miles to town. The Vet got Shadow on the table, and started treatment. She found the bite site.

The Vet didn't tell me at that time, but she didn't believe she could save Shadow. She worked on him for 2 hours, and he made it. She told me she wanted to see him the next morning. I took Shadow in the next morning and he just trotted all around the Vet Clinic and in and out of the exam rooms and surgery rooms and down the hall, as if nothing had ever happened. I began referring to him as "Death's Door Doggie." The Vet was amazed at Shadow's recovery. That is when she told me she didn't think he was going to live the night before.

If epilepsy fits or episodes are even remotedly similar to what Shadow was experiencing after the centipede bite, I really hope that Whisper doesn't have epilepsy. Her symptoms are nothing like what I saw with Shadow.

Judy

[renegaderuby]

I agree with your "nerve" zaps idea. Could be the nerve is firing to try to "live" again. (maybe it was a dead nerve...due to the birth issue) and now that she's fiesty and kicking it....the "nerve" is trying to get back on bord. Maybe it'll stop it after a while. While human anatomy is much different , I used to have to give myself shots in my hip. For a long time (like two years) i had nerve damage there..and could feel nothing (other than pressure) on that hip. About a year after I stopped the shots..every now and then I'd get a painful ZAP on that side...and it was almost like getting shocked with something. Painful, and frustrating ..as nothing I did (rubbing it, ect) would make it stop. It would last about five seconds and then was gone. And it would do it about five times a day. Then...one day I noticed it hadnt done it..and then another...and so I investigated and found that I had ALMOST all the normal feeling back in my hip. Except for two spots. then they started getting the zaps. Long story short...I have one teeny tiny spot that I have no feeling...but the rest of my hip (after the zaps) is normal.

I still get a zap everynow and again..so I'm thinking sooner or later that teeny spot will have feeling to.

I think your DEAD ON as to your conclusion.

[totallyjudy]

Originally Posted by renegaderuby

I agree with your "nerve" zaps idea. Could be the nerve is firing to try to "live" again. (maybe it was a dead nerve...due to the birth issue) and now that she's fiesty and kicking it....the "nerve" is trying to get back on bord. Maybe it'll stop it after a while...

...I think your DEAD ON as to your conclusion.

Thanks, RR!!

Sorry for the pain you went through. It seems you can relate to what I believe Whisper is experiencing. I don't know if it was a dead nerve, or maybe a nerve that just zaps every once in a while. A quick zap of pain - Whisper can't "rub" the area (unless she went over to the wall or a corner, etc.), so she scratches at it to make it go away. I imagine it zaps enough to cause pain, and then "Poof!" - it's gone.

But what do I know? I'll still take that video and see what the Vet says.

I appreciate your support on my conclusion. But I'm not ruling out epilepsy or any other issue until I get the video and have a Vet's diagnosis.

It's a conundrum which shall be resolved!!

Judy

[renegaderuby]

Well I think your right to explore "all" the senarios. As you'd hate to just "assume" its this..and its that instead. I'm the same way. I may assume..but I get an "expert" to confirm or start all over again...lol.
My zaps were painfull ..but if it makes you feel any better (if this indeed what whisper is going thru)..they dont last but a few seconds. And they arent so painful that your miserable. Its just more of an OUCH...OUCH...OUCH..ok on with life...sorta deal. If they "stayed" for longer than that...I'd have been a baby and cried. LOL.
But..if you really want to know what it feels like...take a large rubber band...pull it back and let it pop you good on your deriare (or inner thigh)..and you'll get a good idea of what it feels like. Not pleasant..hurts...but its not so bad that your really suffering. (if that makes any sense).
Although...again..ANY pain FOR ANY moment..is not good for our furcritters. We as humans can "understand" why we hurt. (well most of the time). Our furbabies however cannot. Sigh....
I'm making a mess of this reply. So I'm just gonna SHUSH UP.

[mirtilo]

I have a lhasa, too! He started having this weird behaviour where his head would start to bob uncontrollably, and his movements would be a little uncoordinated. When this happens, he always curls up to my mother. Sometimes a little after the episode, he'll run away from us scared, like he doesn't recognize us, but that only lasts a few minutes. In other scenarios, his head is still, but his lower half will vibrate, from the hip down. He often turns around and looks at himself, weirded out. Here too, he curls up to my mother.

After either of these scenarios, he usually sleeps deeply for a long long time, and has his energy back by morning. I'm studying neurology, and while I can't diagnose anything, it certainly fits the description of a neurological disorder. When we took him to the vet though, he told us he probably hurt is leg falling from somewhere, and sent us home :/

How is Whisper's energy level throughout these scratchy episodes?

[totallyjudy]

Originally Posted by mirtilo

How is Whisper's energy level throughout these scratchy episodes?

Whisper's scratchy episodes last no longer than 3 seconds. As soon as she is done scratching/pawing, she immediate resumes play or whatever else she was doing. Her activity level is the same immediately before and immediately after - that of a rambunctious 1 year old puppy! And she's just as happy as can be. She scratched, she cried out, she's done. It's like it never happened.

I did call the Vet's office last week and asked to have the Vet tell me the term he used to describe what he believes is happening with Whisper (at least until he sees a video). I finally got a call back on Friday with the term for what he believes is affecting Whisper.

Hyperesthesia

Definitions:

1. an extreme sensitivity of one of the body's sense organs, such as pain or touch receptors in the skin.

2. a state of abnormally increased sensitivity to stimuli

3. unusual or pathological sensitivity of the skin or of a particular sense

4.This condition is characterized by morbidly acute sensitiveness to external impressions. The painful phenomena occurring in hyperesthesia are started by external factors, while in dermatalgia they arise spontaneously. Like anesthesia, it may be idiopathic or symptomatic, although the far greater number of cases belong to the latter category.

As a rule, only a small or a large area of the skin surface may be affected, but the condition may become general. The attacks excited may be only of a mild character, or they may become exceedingly agonizing. They have been compared to electric shocks, and described as pricking, darting, and burning sensations. Hyperesthesia is usually unaccompanied by any local change of temperature.

There are a number of possible causes: it may be dependent on functional disturbance or some pathologic change in the brain and spinal cord or other deranged condition of the nervous system; it is frequently met with in hysteria and neurasthenia. It varies in duration; it may be only temporary or may become chronic. Occasionally cases of hyperesthesia present themselves in which it is difficult or impossible to determine the fons et origo mali*; such instances belong to the idiopathic variety.

*fons et origo mali = the source and origin of something.
– origin L., orig. as fons et origo mali ‘the source and origin of evil’.

~~~~~~~~~~~

What I have started doing is massaging Whisper's jaw, side of head, and top of head. Since doing this, I have noted that there has been a decrease in the frequency of her episodes. I remember hearing her have one in the middle of the night (last night), but have not heard or witnessed an episode today. That is an improvement, as previously she was having 2-3 in the evenings when I am at home.

Whisper does not object to the massaging, so I will continue with it. It would be nice if eventually the massaging eliminated Whisper's episodes - I'm not naive enough to believe it could be as simple as that.

But wouldn't it be wonderful if they did help?

At least there is a name for what Whisper is experiencing (at this point). Obviously, once I am able to get some of these episodes on video, it will help pinpoint or support the initial diagnosis.

I'll definitely keep you posted. Thank you for all of your thoughts and suggestions.

Judy