Horses for meat-CBC documentary

[kmd]

Anybody else see the CBC doc. last night? it's horrible this can happen in Canada. The U.S. ended the legal slaughter, so now they send all their horses up here. Some of these horses were people's pets that they grew tired of, other are race horses that aren't winning, and there were also some gorgeous work horses. These poor animals aren't used to being mistreated and their last days are spent in pure hell. I thought we were a civilized country, but we certainly have taken a step backward if this happens.


For more info check out-http://www.cbc.ca/national/blog/special-feature/no-country-for-horses/more-from-twyla-francois.html

[ancientgirl]

I don't live in Canada so I didn't see the documentary, nor would I be able to stomach it. But I've read about that situation.

I think it's appalling. We, in my opinion, are no longer in any way a civilized society.

[Love4himies]

We are supposed to be civilized, but only to humans, Canada is sooooo far behind on humane treatment of animals and punishment for animal cruelty. Gov't is too busy doing something, not sure what, perhaps traveling around the world???

[ancientgirl]

L4H, don't feel so bad about Canada. What about the US Government that knowingly ships these poor horses up there knowing what will happen.

Out of sight, out of mind.

[Lise]

Canada is building more slaughter houses to handle the influx of US horses,the standardbred industry is going to start dumping even more horses.The refuge gets calls every day from people who end conversations with if you don't help he's going for meat.At least dog/cat rescues don't hear that.

[Frenchy]

Originally Posted by Lise

people who end conversations with if you don't help he's going for meat.At least dog/cat rescues don't hear that.

Yes we do ! What we hear is a bit different : if you don't help he's going to get put down.



I didn't see the CBC documentary , thank dog. :sad:

[Frenchy]

Originally Posted by Love4himies

Gov't is too busy doing something, not sure what, perhaps traveling around the world???

What else are they going to do with our tax money ?

[want4rain]

im sorry but.... meat for what????? im turning a little green in the face folks....

-ash

[sophistikitten]

Originally Posted by want4rain

im sorry but.... meat for what????? im turning a little green in the face folks....

-ash

I saw the beginning of the CBC program but my "farmervision" reception isn't too good so I turned it off. So I don't know what kind of meat they were talking about on the program but I know I have seen horse meat advertised in my local grocery store flyer here in Quebec.

[Jim Hall]

meat for overseas for god knoes what horse meat doesnt tatse too good
neither does goat ut its cheap and heck are you going to to with them

lol umm maybe set up the nation of horse formely known as oklahoma?


whane animals are used for profit the animal suffers peta does have thay right

[glitterless]

There's nothing wrong with eating horse meat. I couldn't eat it, but to me that would be like eating a dog or cat. But I won't judge others who do eat it.

Changes do need to be made, but we CANNOT and should not aim to ban horse slaughter in Canada. There are already far too many unwanted horses. There are not enough homes, there is not enough money, and there is not enough support for unwanted horses. They end up neglected and they suffer. While slaughter can obviously be very ugly when things go wrong, it is the ONLY end for many horses.

Unfortunately I've seen neglected horses. I was once on a farm of about 50 horses. All were unhandleable and were part of the owner's crazy breeding plan that never worked out. The horses bred and produced foals, but she couldn't sell them. In the end, they weren't being fed, they weren't getting any veterinary care, and their hooves were horrendously overgrown.

This place was just one of hundreds, I'm sure. Luckily most of those horses were slaughtered. But what will happen to horses like those when they are abandoned by their owners? Do any of you who protest slaughter have the facilities, time, and money to take these horses on?

The issue here is breeding just as it is with dogs and cats. Not every mare should be bred and almost every stallion should be a gelding!

I am so upset by this documentary and media coverage, but for a different reason than many of you. I now realize that Canada will likely ban slaughter in the next few years and I'm very worried about what will happen to the horses that would have been destined for slaughter.

Please don't breed your horses and please don't support this ban unless you're willing to pick up the pieces when everything falls apart.

[Lise]

Horse slaughter should be banned.The horse industry would start to regulate itself if there was not more money to made dumping poorly bred horses that should never have been produced.Owners should take responsability for their horses for life,not just the horses useful life.My Jack is over thirty,still happy and pasture sound.He gave me lot of pleasure when I rode,now it's my turn.Happy takes care of my daughter when she events and hunts him,he will have the same retirement as Jack.Rio, Ali's now outgrown pony also has a home for as he can enjoy a happy healthy life.Out of our seven horses four are ridden/worked regularly the rest goof off.They all get the same vet,farrier care working or not.Many countries are banning horse slaughter,it can not be done humanely.The stress brought on by shipping and slaughtering an animal so subject to stress makes that impossible.If a ban was brought into effect,short term we would have a major dumping of horses.The answer there is prosecute owners for cruelty or neglect force them to take responsabiity.I worked in England for many years,were it is even more expensive to keep a horse and not once did I ever hear of anyone dumping there horse like here.Most stables had at least two or three old horses that were retired and still well cared for.If you ride you owe your horse a retirement nothing less.This is an animal that has taken care of you,that could kill you if they want to but chooses to obey and trust you Any less is a betrayl.I work with a horse rescue so I do understand the problem of unwanted horses,but slaughter is quick fix that only serves to increase the problem long term by offering owners an easy way of making money from horses that should never have been born.We need long term solutions.

[ancientgirl]

Well said Lise, well said.

[DoubleRR]

Lise, that is the arguement made that helped ban horse slaughter in the USA. Unfortunately, little to nothing is in place to REPLACE it and thousands of unwanted horses are affected. I am a member of horse forums where members are wondering what to do about all the abandoned and/or starving horses in several spots in the US. Horses are found wandering in towns, dying behind fences, and have been devalued because of supply to where even VERY well trained animals have no buyers even when marketed well below real value.
I agree with glitterless. A third of the world eats horsemeat the way we eat cow meat. As long as slaughter is humane, I see no reason not to have it. FAR better than a horrible long-suffering end that so many animals go through.
The program was tilted towards the view point of the anti-slaughter folk. The most radical, as in PETA, would have most of us never own an animal--certainly never ride a horse. Can you see how when you are at the top of a slippery slope you have to stop and ensure there are both working brakes and soft padding on the wall at the bottom?

[Purpledomino]

Originally Posted by Lise

Horse slaughter should be banned.The horse industry would start to regulate itself if there was not more money to made dumping poorly bred horses that should never have been produced.Owners should take responsability for their horses for life,not just the horses useful life.My Jack is over thirty,still happy and pasture sound.He gave me lot of pleasure when I rode,now it's my turn.Happy takes care of my daughter when she events and hunts him,he will have the same retirement as Jack.Rio, Ali's now outgrown pony also has a home for as he can enjoy a happy healthy life.Out of our seven horses four are ridden/worked regularly the rest goof off.They all get the same vet,farrier care working or not.Many countries are banning horse slaughter,it can not be done humanely.The stress brought on by shipping and slaughtering an animal so subject to stress makes that impossible.If a ban was brought into effect,short term we would have a major dumping of horses.The answer there is prosecute owners for cruelty or neglect force them to take responsabiity.I worked in England for many years,were it is even more expensive to keep a horse and not once did I ever hear of anyone dumping there horse like here.Most stables had at least two or three old horses that were retired and still well cared for.If you ride you owe your horse a retirement nothing less.This is an animal that has taken care of you,that could kill you if they want to but chooses to obey and trust you Any less is a betrayl.I work with a horse rescue so I do understand the problem of unwanted horses,but slaughter is quick fix that only serves to increase the problem long term by offering owners an easy way of making money from horses that should never have been born.We need long term solutions.

I couldn't agree more. Nothing angers me more than the pro-slaughter proponents argument that there is going to be a huge dumping of "unwanted" horses suffering needlessly. Slaughter keeps the ball rolling for irresponsible breeders, auction houses and neglectful horse owners because there is always a way to dispose of your horse and possibly make a buck instead of doing the right thing by rehoming or euthanizing. Horses are essentially companion animals, trained by us to be trusting partners and this very inhumane end is cruelty at its finest. The long term best interest of our horses is not served by slaughter as a viable option. Stricter animal cruelty laws need to be enforced, and the responsibilty needs to lie with the owners.

50,242 horses were killed in Canadian slaughterhouses in 2006. When horses are shipped for slaughter, they are transported over very long distances in cramped trailers built for cattle. Stallions, youngstock, pregnant mares and geldings, as well as sick and lame animals are not provided with food or water for sometimes days at a time. Unsurprisingly, some do not arrive alive. When they arrive terrified (if you know horses, you know this is true) they are herded by electric prods and visibly shaking, frightened to the point of losing control of their bladder and bowels, by the sights and smells of death around them. How humane is it to drive a four inch dead-bolt into the head of a terrified, intelligent, and agile animal? There is a HUGE probability for error, and quite often death does not come quick for the horses.

No-one is going to convince me that this is a viable option, or does our horses well. For the facts and information, about horse slaughter go to....www.defendhorsescanada.org

[Purpledomino]

Originally Posted by DoubleRR

As long as slaughter is humane, I see no reason not to have it.
?

This is the point. It is not, and probably could not be.

[DoubleRR]

The long term best interest of our horses is not served by slaughter as a viable option. Stricter animal cruelty laws need to be enforced, and the responsibilty needs to lie with the owners.

Correct--however what do we do in the meantime? We all know how slowly the wheels of justice turn. I have personally tried to stop puppy mills and what I would term horse mills in areas I have lived in--the SPCA can do nothing if water and food is available--no matter now awful the animals appear. I have testified in court in cases where the perp was awarded the animals after a cruelty investigation. The tv shows on the big city animal police make people think things have improved. In general they HAVE NOT. At least not in this country. What we need to do is get enforceable laws in place first--THEN end slaughter. That takes a lot of lobbying, as most of the public is more concerned about the lack of justice for people than animals.

I simply have seen too much abuse and starvation--even an inhumane death is kinder than that.

[Purpledomino]

In the meantime we should abolish horse slaughter in Canada. There are no facts to support the myth that there will be an onslaught of "unwanted" horses starving and neglected. On the contrary. Please read this article, #5 is very interesting to note. http://www.vetsforequinewelfare.org/white_paper.php

I believe that slaughter encourages neglect, as money is the only objective to sell horses for slaughter. 100+ horses were seized in Alberta a few months ago due to neglect, and since slaughter was an option for this perpetrator, why did he not use the system? Probably because he just did not care, did not need/want the money his horses may bring for meat cost.

I personally know horse owners that have sold their beloved horses to the meat man, or taken them to the auction. I know for a fact that they did this because they had the OPTION to do so and make a buck, instead of the other option and euthanize at their expense. Money talks in this industry. Unfortunately the horses pay.

[DoubleRR]

I only know what I and friends of mine have seen first hand. Following--a friend in the south eastern USA emailed me this while we were discussing the repercussions of slaughter plants closing down there:

Firsthand: A local farmer went to a cattle auction and came out to find four horses tied to his trailer.... He called us to see if we wanted them (NO!) - we received several phone calls from people giving away horses last year - and heard from a few others that this was not a one time occurence. The farmers that attend the once a week cattle auction took to parking their trailers at a local coop and diner parking lot so that they didn't end up with more of someone else's problem.

Firsthand: Friends of ours who work for the BLM have seen at least 2 dozen domestic horses that were just turned out on federal lands to fend for themselves - and that was way back in November. Most of them he said looked like older horses.. Plus, that was just in one small location. They were receiving reports from their fellow BLM officers that this is pretty wide spread.

Firsthand: A local television station this winter broadcast the story of the abandoned horses that were being turned out in old mining and quarry areas of KY.

Firsthand: Someone dropped a mini stallion off in a friend's front yard this past fall. She had to have him gelded, wormed, and find him a new home at her own expense..

You are never going to legislate morallity - it hasn't worked for drugs, alcohol, child abuse, dog fighting, etc.. it is not going to work for horse ownership..

Another:

Our shipper that we used to bring Joe home said that he's talked to many people all over the county.. Most people that are going to horse shows are locking there trailers cause people are filling them with horses while there in side showing..

One of the problems--yes, you can have your horse euthanized--but VERY often you are then responsible for the body, and there is no where that will accept it.

This is what I mean when I say there needs to be a replacement set of policies/laws in place.

[Chris21711]

Originally Posted by DoubleRR

Correct--however what do we do in the meantime? We all know how slowly the wheels of justice turn. I have personally tried to stop puppy mills and what I would term horse mills in areas I have lived in--the SPCA can do nothing if water and food is available--no matter now awful the animals appear. I have testified in court in cases where the perp was awarded the animals after a cruelty investigation. The tv shows on the big city animal police make people think things have improved. In general they HAVE NOT. At least not in this country. What we need to do is get enforceable laws in place first--THEN end slaughter. That takes a lot of lobbying, as most of the public is more concerned about the lack of justice for people than animals.

I think you are wrong DoubleRR, even if a horse has food and water but they are need of health care, here in Ontario at least an order can be written to address the situation and if not addressed the animal can be seized. That I know to be true.
I simply have seen too much abuse and starvation--even an inhumane death is kinder than that.

Originally Posted by Frenchy

Yes we do ! What we hear is a bit different : if you don't help he's going to get put down.



I didn't see the CBC documentary , thank dog. :sad:

Did you know Frenchy that euthanized pets sometimes end up in good old Dog and Cat chow, just how disgusting is that :sad:

[ancientgirl]

Originally Posted by Chris21711

Did you know Frenchy that euthanized pets sometimes end up in good old Dog and Cat chow, just how disgusting is that :sad:

That's disturbing. I've seen studies showing cows that have mad cow disease were fed ground slaughtered cows in their feed and that may have been part of the development of the disease.

[Purpledomino]

Absolutely laws and policies need to be put in place. I also believe that once horse slaughter in North America is abolished, the horse industry will regulate itself as it will be forced to. Long term, if there is no market for the product...there will be no product. Irresponsible breeders and owners will think twice about producing foals, race-horse operations will require methods of placing ex-racehorses, people will actually place,euthanize, or use rescue services. I do not buy that the majority are going to "dump" horses, or watch them die on their property. To assume this, I would also think that they would be neglectful regardless of slaughter being an option or not. The slaughter industry is entirely money driven, and if you read the statistics written there is no more cruelty, or neglect cases than before slaughter was banned in the US. Of course there will be cases of neglect and "unwanted" horses regardless, as long as human beings are flawed as they are, it is going to happen. This is an interesting article.
http://www.defendhorsescanada.org/pdf/white_paper.pdf

[Lise]

As long as horse slaughter remains an option laws will not change.We have slaughter and still have cruelty and neglect.I've seen horses starved,still working when their fetlocks were almst touching the ground,being ridden with a leg that had been broken and left untreated to heal in a horrible angle.Horses are being bred to supply the meat market as well as unwanted horses.Hold owners responsable, prosecute cruelty.If we were talking about dogs or cats being sent to slaughter more people would be outraged.You are basing opinions on what is happening in the states,which only recently banned slaughter.Maybe it has to get worse before it gets better.I really hope so.

[DoubleRR]

Again, I agree---hold owners responsible--hold breeders responsible--prosecute cruelty--that would be lovely. It took us 200 yrs to say sorry to the attrocities we did to the aboriginals of this country, wonder how long before we wake up to what we are doing to every other living being. I am not holding my breath. I do not want to see the end justify the means. I want the policies and laws to at least be on the table before slaughter is banned, is all I am saying here.

[glitterless]

Horse slaughter should be legal as long as cattle slaughter is legal. People eat horses. You cannot deny that and who are we to stop people from eating horsemeat? Cattle slaughterhouses (often the same ones horses are done in) are the same. There are so many problems regarding slaughter and raising animals for human consumption. Transportation is one of these major issues. If there is anything in the world that I could change right now, I would ask that animals at least be shipped humanely to slaughter. No double deckers, enough breathing space so that they're comfortable, absolutley NO downer animals, and that the loads be checked regularly for animals that are injured en route.

I also think that some animals are going far too long without feed or water before slaughter. Some of these horses and cattle are going days without a drink. That's inhumane.

I'm ashamed of the CBC for airing such a slanted story. The pictures that I viewed online were propaganda plain and simple. They are no different from what you see on PETA's website. Some of those photos, like the shots of the hooves in a bucket are for shock value, as well as the shot of the horse heads and intestines. I know they were trying to prove a point (horses going to slaughter can't be shod and the heads & intestines shouldn't have been piled outside), but these are the pictures that are upsetting people and causing this outrage. Almost every frantic post that I've read (and I've been on several BBs in the past few days reading about the CBC broadcast) is referring to those pictures in particular.

Slaughter CAN be humane. I agree with what you guys are saying...slaughter on a large scale cannot be controlled and some things will always fall through the cracks. But don't make such blanket statements like saying that the slaughter of horses is inhumane, period. What is so wrong with killing a horse and eating it? A horse can be slaughtered just as humanely as a cow. I think the answer lies in smaller slaughterhouses with more government regulation. I live in a small farming community where some small time farmers like my parents ship their cattle one at a time to the local butcher/abatoir. There is nothing inhumane about the way these animals are treated. They are fed and well taken care of during their lives, transported in a roomy stock trailer, and killed before they know what's happening.

This topic is so sad. As objective as I'm trying to be, don't think I didn't react when I saw those CBC photos. My life is my horses. I live and breathe horses and just the thought of a horse in distress upsets me tremendously. But I've seen some really upsetting situations...actually more like deplorable situations and I see a need for slaughter.

Yes, Lise, I agree that in a perfect world we wouldn't kill and eat horses -- especially young, healthy, useful horses who can give a lot to people. We would take care of our old horses and we would let the rest of the world who consume horsemeat take care of themselves. But horse people, our peers, do not seem to want to do that because they keep breeding inferior horses and dumping older and unsound horses for something younger.

There *IS* a link between slaughter and unwanted horses. It shouldn't take much thinking to figure that one out. As long as there are unwanted horses, there will be a need for slaughter. Even if we could humanely euthanize every unwanted horse right now, where would we put the carcasses if they weren't used for meat?

[glitterless]

Originally Posted by Purpledomino

Irresponsible breeders and owners will think twice about producing foals, race-horse operations will require methods of placing ex-racehorses, people will actually place,euthanize, or use rescue services. I do not buy that the majority are going to "dump" horses, or watch them die on their property. To assume this, I would also think that they would be neglectful regardless of slaughter being an option or not.

No, they won't think twice and yes they will neglect their horses. It's happening now every where!

Yesterday I heard about a case of 70 horses needing rescue. That is from one farm. I already mentioned the woman I knew of who had 50+ horses, most of which went for slaughter as she was finally forced to clean up.

FYI, these people don't decide one day, "Hey, I'll send off my 100 unbroke horses to the meat man." Rather they collect horses. They usually don't have much experience and get in over their head with unbroke, unhandleable horses. Foals start coming and they are over run. It's not cheap to keep horses. Hay and feed prices are soaring. One day this owner realizes that his lot of long-hooved, worm-infested, wild stock are too expensive to feed.

Can you sell a horse like that to a good home? Nope. No one is paying over $1,500 for a well broke horse right now and who in their right mind would pay anything for a horse that they can't touch, that needs vet care ASAP and that could be very dangerous?

So this owner takes the horses to an auction. In case many of you don't know, the horse market is flooded right now, partly because of the US slaughter ban. No one is taking chances on even a really pretty young horse at an auction if it isn't broke because they can go elsewhere for something at least halterbroke. So, the horses are bought by someone who sells them for meat.

So yes, people are neglectful with or without slaughter. The thing is, right now, we have a way to dispose of these mass produced horses that I spoke of above. It's not a nice end, but at least it gets them out of that person's field where who knows what would have happened to them.

As for rescues, they are overloaded and always will be no matter what happens with slaughter.

I am so tired of hearing people discuss "rescue" like it's an option. Take some responsibility for your own horse! If a TB (for example) owner can't rehome the horse when it finishes its racing career, why should a rescue (who have no money and resources) have to take on this horse?

I understand that it's not fun to watch your old, unsound horse in the pasture and not be able to afford to keep another horse to ride. But you know what? That's life. Why should a horse rescue -- most of which are privately run with no funding -- take on a horse that its owner, the person who it hauled around for years, could care for?

People are using rescues as a dump for horses that they can no longer use. Check the classifieds. There are tons of free horses available as companions because they are no longer able to be used for riding or breeding.

As for horses actually dying on properties? It happens all the time. I heard about one aged horse who was malnourished for years. His owner did feed him.. he got a bale of hay every month or so and scrounged around for whatever else he could find. He slowly died of congestive heart failure that was finally diagnosed by a vet, but far too late.

[Lise]

I work with one of those underfunded flooded rescues.Some of my horses are rescues.Slaughter can not be an option in my opinion,how about euthanising humanely instead of up to 36 hours in truck with no food or water?Yes rescues are underfunded overworked etc,but at least we are trying to do something.I find it really sad that most of the support for many horse rescues comes from people who don't have horses,instead of just saying we need slaughter how about really fighting for some strong laws on cruelty and neglect,support rescues,get out and educate people who are breeding.Get involved if you aren't already.

[Purpledomino]

I suppose that if you consider horses to be livestock, you would agree that slaughter is a viable option. If you deem them as companion animals and treat them as such, slaughter is uncomprehensible. Personally, I will support the Humane Society, the ASPCA and countless rescue organizations that put the welfare of horses in the forefront, and are staunch supporters of the anti-slaughter movement. These organizations are at the frontline of neglect, abandonment and abuse cases, and still are adamantly against slaughter. I can reasonably assume that if they thought horse slaughter was a "necessary evil" and of benefit to the general horse population, they would'nt be fighting so hard to abolish it.

As far as the "propaganda" goes, yes anything that is shocking to watch can be considered propaganda to those apposing it. The facts don't lie, just watch a video...look at pictures, read the articles. Anti-slaughter proponents don't just make this stuff up to pad our case, its real. There are lots of documents to read regarding this, from ligitimate sources and organizations.

Personally, I don't have a problem with people eating horseflesh. What happens after the fact isn't an issue in my mind anyway. The process leading up to that is though. As long as horses are killed in the barbaric way that they are now for consumption, and the path that leads them to the slaughterhouse I have enormous issue with. We would not stand and watch this happen to any other companion animals like dogs or cats. Why should we let it happen to horses? Unfortunately for the horses they can just be considered "livestock" when it suits us.

I have not seen or read any documents proclaiming that the US ban has left "unwanted" horses all over the place, or rising neglect cases. The information that I have seen points to the contrary, so I am still doubtful that the ban has had any adverse affects. I would really like to read them if they are out there.

[glitterless]

Originally Posted by Purpledomino

I have not seen or read any documents proclaiming that the US ban has left "unwanted" horses all over the place, or rising neglect cases. The information that I have seen points to the contrary, so I am still doubtful that the ban has had any adverse affects. I would really like to read them if they are out there.

Check this out:

http://www.time.com/time/nation/arti...0.html?cnn=yes

I respect your opinions. I hope I'm not being preachy or lecturing anyone. Those aren't my intentions. Like you, I'm so upset by this...outraged is more like it. We have differing opinions, but my number one concern along with yours is the welfare of horses. I do feel responsible for neglected and unwanted horses because I'm aware of the problem.

Lise, that woman I mentioned with the 50+ horses was the breeder of my gelding pictured in my avatar. Who knows what would have happened to him if he was foaled on her farm. We took in his dam along with 4 other mares. It wasn't much considering she had so many horses, but I'm glad that I was able to help out those horses that were in need.

I definitely agree with the transportation issue. That is something that I think can change with legislation. I know that there are laws in place now, but many of them aren't enforced. It's time for a change.

I don't think it's sad that a lot of money going into rescues is from non-horsey people; I think it's wonderful that other people are involved.

Unfortunately there isn't one answer for this problem. We need some government regulation, but we also need to take responsibility. I think everyone who is actively involved in the horse industry needs to look at what they are doing. Don't breed, be careful who you sell a horse to, take care of your aged and unsound horses, and encourage others to do the same.

I hope I'm not generalizing too much here...but I have a huge issue with the majority of people who show, especially those at higher levels of competition. It seems to be so common for riders to upgrade to a "better" mount or to choose discipline-specific horses. For example, I know a girl with 2 perfectly good horses who is shopping for a been there, done that horse for her sister AND a "jumper" for herself. She is just learning to jump and what has now could do the job, but she wants a certain type of horse, like a warmblood or thoroughbred. Really, is that necessary? What ever happened to versatile horses? I know of so many people who switch disciplines and in turn switch horses. If your horse is young and healthy, he can probably do relatively well in most disciplines, especially in the preliminary stages. I don't see why people need to buy a QH when they want to take a stab at reining when they have a TB, for example who may be more than able. And if the horse isn't good enough to win anything or teach you, THEN consider finding another horse.

Unfortunately the horse industry is a lot like the clothing industry. Trends come and go. TBs used to be in high demand in the hunters and jumpers, but apparently warmbloods do the job better. So many off track TBs who may have had second careers as show horses are ending up these unwanted horses going to slaughter.

Like designer dogs, horses are not fashion. They should not be part of a trend.

I hope I didn't offend anyone who shows -- I'm actually off to show this weekend -- but it's just something that I've noticed in the industry, especially on certain circuits and it really bothers me.

[Lise]

You are right about many show people.They upgrade to a better horse as they move up and forget the horse that brought them there.My daughter events and does some hunter trials.Almost everyone of her freinds have upgraded,she stll has her Happy,maybe they aren't always first,but usually in the ribbons.I'll never forget the Lake of two mountains trials a year ago. Happy lost a shoe at a wall,stopped, Liz didn't,she went head first into it.Happy just stood over her,all techs,her coach,me all went running to see if she was okay.Happy doesn't like people he doesn't know getting too close,but he never moved from Liz he was shaking and freaked out by everything .She was okay,lots of blood from were she wacked her nose,but they still did their gallop at the end of the show.I guess we don't agree on some issues about them,but we do agree on what wonderful,amazing animals they are who do so much for us.