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  #31  
Old November 30th, 2007, 04:58 AM
Mia101 Mia101 is offline
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Originally Posted by clm View Post
I think in the long run everyone needs to research and buy the best food they can afford for their cat or dog.

Cats don't need senior forumla foods, they need a good quality food at all stages of life and as they age, they just tend to eat less of it.

As for the whole large breed puppy thing.....in no way related to senior cat food, but my understanding is that just like any other food, pay attention to the ingredients.....calcium levels in puppy foods are one of the main problems with puppy formulas. They need to be well under 3% or you're going to have problems with bones, whether they be large breed or any breed puppy.
I don't believe a large puppy food is really necessary, I would think any good quality regular food or puppy food would be all that's required.
Some people and breeders become far too preoccupied with how fast or how big a puppy is going to get, some believe the bigger the better, which in my opinion has resulted in some large breed and regular puppy formulas to produce foods that will give that effect and some breeders who breed for size instead of health.


Cindy

The Vet who also makes a study of nutrition endorsed SOME large-breed puppy formulas.

And it addressed what you mentioned, the goal is not simply for them to get to a certain size, but to grow PROPERLY. Building the substance of bones, joints, etc, not just grow bigger.

This is NOT directed at you, but I propose that people who want to dismiss the thought that ANY large-breed puppy formula is crap, read the research before making that decision.

Don't tell me I'm wrong without back-up ;-)
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  #32  
Old November 30th, 2007, 05:33 AM
Mia101 Mia101 is offline
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Originally Posted by mummummum View Post
Unless you see something I don't, I only see "discussing, educating and learning" going on here.
If that were the case, people would be open to an idea put forth by a nutritionist, backed up by research, instead of dismissing it without even looking into it.

What I see, is people with 'x' amount of knowledge, with no desire to hear anything contrary to it, or expand it. Just to tell everyone they are wrong based on the 'x' amount they learned.
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  #33  
Old November 30th, 2007, 11:42 AM
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luckypenny luckypenny is offline
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Originally Posted by Mia101 View Post
If that were the case, people would be open to an idea put forth by a nutritionist, backed up by research, instead of dismissing it without even looking into it.
I'd very much like to look into this nutritionist's research. Is it his/her own scientific research or something he/she has learned from others? Anything published I can peruse?
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  #34  
Old November 30th, 2007, 11:57 AM
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want4rain want4rain is offline
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http://www.purinaone.com/products_dog_lrgbreedadult.asp

http://www.royalcanin.us/dogfood/maxiadult.html

http://www.petco.com/product/8717/Hi...intenance.aspx

http://us.iams.com/iams/en_US/jsp/IA...productID=99#4

http://us.eukanuba.com/eukanuba/en_U...&PID=41&TAB=IN

of all of them, this one is fairly decent for kibble. which still has only.... 4?? different sources of actual food in it??
http://www.petsmart.com/product/inde...amily&keepsr=1

a senior diet-
http://www.longliveyourdog.com/Produ...owSenior7.aspx

here is Canidae Lamb And Rice-
http://www.canidae.com/dogs/lamb-and-rice/dry.html

here is Evo's line-
http://www.evopet.com/products/default.asp?id=1485
and their cat line-
http://www.evopet.com/products/default.asp?id=1500

i think you get the picture. do soem searches to find out what dog foods are out there, do a search for their ingredients lists and do the comparison yourself. if you can find a single large breed or senior dog food thats healthier for your dog than either Canidae or Evo (or any other high quality dog food) please, please bring it to our attention. im so sure that Purina or Science Diet or Iams... whatever has these special bags of dog food hiding somewhere for whatever reason.

all of the knowledge is at your finger tips. look at the ingredients, look at where they are listed, follow the guidelines the AAFCO set for these things.

then look at your own diet. spend a few weeks eating cereal and see how YOU feel after a month. go watch Super Size me and then think abotu what your pet is eating and compare it... really look at these 'large breed' foods. im sure there is some merit to adding extra whatever and taking away whatever to these 'perfectly balanced' foods but would you feed your children this stuff?? if you cant feed a fresh food diet, then feed a HIGH QUALITY food supplemented if ONLY with left overs.


but please, dont tell me i dont know a thing or two about pet food. i dont HAVE to know a thing or two about pet food to know whats garbage and whats not. its so glaringly obvious.

-ashley
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  #35  
Old December 2nd, 2007, 06:28 PM
Mia101 Mia101 is offline
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I'm talking about ratios of protein, fat, carbs, and other nutrients, none of which you touched on at all.

I do understand what you are saying about ingredients, but it's those ratios that were found to play a role in the development of large breed puppies.

And they are comparing to regular puppy formula of the same caliber food. The whole world does not buy premium, and never will.

As to whether a quality food like Canidae is better for all pups, including large breed, I don't know. It is possible, however, that even with better ingredients, the ratios, if they are off, could keep it from being optimum for large breed puppies.

That doesn't mean a dog is better off on Purina large breed, but perhaps if Canidae came out with a large breed puppy formula, THAT would be optimum.

KWIM?
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  #36  
Old December 17th, 2007, 08:58 PM
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kiara kiara is offline
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Just another thought came to mind. I maybe a chatterbox, but I am not a Hill's representative. I think that competing pet food companies back stab each other, to make the other one look bad. (That's why we, the public have to be careful as to which food we use!) I trust my vet and have been going to him for many years and he also helps many homeless and abandoned cats and dogs and this tells me that he is not only there to make money. But he is using his expertise for charitable purposes. Therefore losing thousands of dollars in profits. Your negative comments will not convince me, sorry.
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  #37  
Old December 17th, 2007, 11:19 PM
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sugarcatmom sugarcatmom is offline
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Originally Posted by kiara View Post
Your negative comments will not convince me, sorry.
Unfortunately it will be your cats that pay the price for your stubborn close-mindedness on this issue. Your vet may very well be a genius in many areas of his profession, but he clearly knows diddly-squat about feline nutrition if he's "prescribing" such an atrocious diet as Hill's W/D in an attempt to get your fat cat to lose weight (how's that working, by the way?). You would be doing him and all of his other clients a big favour if you were to print out this article from the Journal of the American Veterinary Association for him to read.
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  #38  
Old December 21st, 2007, 09:01 PM
woof99 woof99 is offline
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Wow, what a thread and it is nice to see how passionate everone gets when it comes to feeding the best to their pets.

Having been in the pet food industry- (used to run pet supply store and am now a vet tech, so I know both sides).

1st off, please do not assume that all vets are the same, each of them have certain strenght and some happen to be passionate about nutrition for pets, the same way you all are. The vet I work for is a walking encyclopedia, she spends hours every week researching the best diets for her patients and she uses blood work, encyclopedias, websites, nutrition publications...

2nd- As the owner of a 15 (almost 16) year old cat I went to her and asked what makes senior diets different- She admits that many companies just drop the protein levels but there is a reason for this. As cats get older their body naturally becomes more acidic, this acidity can lead to free radical damage which leads to cancer. Meat protein naturally makes the body more acidic, which in young cats is important to help prevent struvite crystals (they form in alkaline ph), and protein is very hard on the kidneys and liver, they need to break it down and this can lead to deterioration of these organs quicker. So what "proper" companies will do is increase the quality of the protein by getting protein that has a higher bioavalibility, which means less wear and tear on organs- Costs a lot more though.
She also mentioned that as gets start to get a little kidney/renal disease which we see all the time in senior cats, we need to drop the phosphorus levels- these diets have less phosphorus. I need to learn more about this one.
The other thing is that as cats get older the risk for struvites drop and risk for Calcium Oxalates stones goes up,so these diets form a urinary ph that is a little more alcaline to help prevent these.
Lastly, they have increased water soluble vitamins (for cats that are a little pu/pd (drinking more and urinating more) since they just pee out the vitamins adding a little more will help then absorb them, they also add a larger volume of antioxidants (prevent cancer) and more Omega 3's- good coat quality and helps with stiff joints.

Having said all this, I then asked her which diet she would rec and she prefers Medi-Cal mature- I know several people that have cats in their 20's that feed this diet. I am still feeding Medi-Cal dental but have started to add some canned mature since my vet says that all cats should get some canned food since it has better quality protein and more moisture, which is improtant to help flush toxins from the body.

I know a lot of people do not like vet diets, but I really like this company, during the recall they took care of all the pets that were eating their recalled products, blood work, fluids, thousands of dollars- They are the only company that did that. They also do not use by-products, they are naturally prserved and they put omega 3's, high quality proteins, and lot's of antioxidants in all their diets.

As for the retail side, the only one I can honestly say I like is Solid Gold- We just never see sick pets on that diet...unlike many others. The vet looked into it as well and she likes it too.

Those are my 2 cents!
Happy holidays!
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  #39  
Old December 23rd, 2007, 04:24 PM
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sugarcatmom sugarcatmom is offline
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Originally Posted by woof99 View Post
1st off, please do not assume that all vets are the same,
Oh gosh, I don’t think anyone here is doing that. In fact the 4 people I have utmost respect for when it comes to feline nutrition are vets: Dr. Elizabeth Hodgkins, Dr. Lisa Pierson, Dr. Jean Hofve and Dr. Debra Zoran. But the fact is that the vast majority of them are just not up to speed on this topic. That doesn’t make them bad vets overall. Like any other profession, whether doctors, lawyers, carpenters or bus drivers, there will be variation in expertise and skill level. The problem is, most pet owners assume a vet should be the ultimate authority on nutrition, when that just isn’t the case.

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Originally Posted by woof99 View Post
. . . and protein is very hard on the kidneys and liver, they need to break it down and this can lead to deterioration of these organs quicker.
Hmmm, not exactly. There are newer studies indicating the opposite is true for cats: that a low protein diet actually increases creatinine levels and causes harm to the kidneys. See, cats are obligate carnivores. They need protein, period. If they don’t get it from their diet, they catabolize it from their own muscle tissue. The only case to be made for restricting protein could possibly be in end-stage or acute renal failure, to reduce the symptoms of a uremic crisis. But certainly not just because an otherwise healthy cat is entering its senior years! In fact, it could be argued that seniors need MORE protein in order to prevent muscle wasting. And the quality of that protein is important. Wheat or corn gluten and meat by-products are not quality protein sources, they’re a cheap way for pet food companies to boost the protein quantity, to the cat’s detriment.

As a side-note, here is an interesting article on the Mythology of Protein Restriction for Dogs with Reduced Renal Function as a reference to how the whole outdated concept of low protein diets came about.

Quote:
Originally Posted by woof99 View Post
She also mentioned that as gets start to get a little kidney/renal disease which we see all the time in senior cats, we need to drop the phosphorus levels- these diets have less phosphorus. I need to learn more about this one.
Phosphorus is certainly more of an issue, which is why the use of phosphate binders and/or Calcitriol has more of an impact on the wellbeing and longevity of CRF kitties than merely prescribing a low protein diet (especially if that diet is dry). But, returning to the original argument of whether senior cat food is necessary: I still say no. There a number of excellent ‘all life stages’ canned foods that are already low in phosphorus and still have decent protein levels. Although phosphorus and protein are linked, there is no need to reduce both in the diet of a healthy senior cat. If someone is concerned about preserving kidney function, ensuring adequate hydration via a wet food diet is the number one priority. This goes for cats of all ages. To expand on this even further, I belong to a feline diabetes and a feline IBD BB, and the overwhelming theme on both boards is how much better the cats do once switched from dry food to a grain-free canned or (even better) raw diet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by woof99 View Post
Having said all this, I then asked her which diet she would rec and she prefers Medi-Cal mature- I know several people that have cats in their 20's that feed this diet. I am still feeding Medi-Cal dental but have started to add some canned mature since my vet says that all cats should get some canned food since it has better quality protein and more moisture, which is improtant to help flush toxins from the body.
Don’t get me started on ‘dental diets’! I’ll save that for another day . But good for you for introducing canned food into your cat’s meals, although I’m not so convinced Medi-cal (now owned by Royal Canin) is that great. For the amount you pay for it, you can do much better with something like Wellness or Nature’s Variety.

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Originally Posted by woof99 View Post
Those are my 2 cents!
Happy holidays!
Likewise!
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  #40  
Old December 23rd, 2007, 05:04 PM
SARAH SARAH is offline
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Just a few comments ...

Medi-Cal was what settled Dani's very loose stomach. She is now able to eat toher foods without getting diarhea.

Protein is not hard on liver/kidneys, in humans or animals, as long as they drink enough water! That's where the trouble lies, sufficient water!!

And lastly, cats are carnivorous, why should they not have meat?
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