Scary Possession Aggression? Need some advice!

[gtexan]

My wife and I recently moved to a much larger house with a huge 1/3 acre fenced in back yard and access to a lake, and so decided it was time to add a new member to our family! We had both grown up with dogs our whole life, but as we've lived in apartments for the last 5 years, we decided we would wait until we had a yard and room to run before getting a new one. We also have 2 cats aged 2 (male) and 1 (female), so we anted to give them at least 3 months in the new house before bringing in a new puppy.

Our waiting time was over, so this past weekend we made a trip out to our local SPCA, and instantly fell in love with a smallish little cocker spaniel boy aged 1 year. We took him for a walk at the shelter, played fetch with him, and tested his interaction with the other dogs and the kittens they had up for adoption as well (we have 2 cats). He passed every test with flying colors, and we just knew he was the dog for us.

We took him home, bought him a bunch of toys, and played with him outside for at least a few hours. He soon grew tired, so we brought him inside. He is a very cuddly dog, who loves to lick your face and have his back, face, etc petted. Nothing seemed to bother him as long as you were givng him attention, and he loved it all.

We gave him a rawhide and another squeeky toy, and after a few hours, he was ready to play again. We both sat on the floor and took turns throwing his toy and letting him bring it back to us.

This was when the trouble started.

For what seems like a completely non-provoked reason, one time my wife went to take the toy to throw again, as we had done every other time, and he seemed to "snap." He growled and lunged at her neck. In the process he actually broke her necklace and definately scared her a lot. he's not a big dog (only 20 lbs), but the action was terrifying. I've had dogs with possession aggression (growling when you get too close to their toys), but this seemed different. He went from tongue out, happily playing, to attack dog. Not just growling, but lunging like you sometimes see when dogs that dont like each other get too close.

I was a little wary of him, but decided it was probably a one time thing, and that he was just not used to her yet (i had been playing most of the day with him). So we decided to give him a few minutes of playing by himself (he chose to sit in my lap) and test him again. I gently took one of his toys away form him, and he eagerly waited for him to throw it. Things seemed back to normal. And then, out of nowhere again, he lunged at me too. I went to take his toy to throw, and he did the exact same behavior towards me that he did towards my wife.

I should say that while he did lunge at both of us, he never bit either one. He was sitting in my lap when he went for me, and thus I know he was in range and could have if he wanted. It was more like a nasty, snarling attack that he instantly knew he should not do. He snarled, growled, went at me but stopped short. Never any actual contact. Despite this, the action was still terrifying.

Instead of backing up, I stood up and yelled "no" firmly but not loudly. He seemed to know he had done something wrong, and instantly rolled over and acted submissive.

We were both a little scared at this point, and decided not to play with him with his toys. We still gave him attention, but didn't interact with him and his toys the rest of the evening.

As I said prevoiusly, we have 2 young cats who we are very nervous about meeting a new dog. While we also dont' have children at the moment, they are definately in our plans within the next 5 years. As such, we were (hopefully understandably) very nervous about what to do with this dog. Never having witnessed a dog display this kind of "unpredictable" behavior, we decided it was too risky to introduce him to our cats (what if he actually did attempt to hurt them).

As such, we brought him back to the shelter this morning with tears in our eyes. We assumed that he would have more luck in a house where he was maybe the only dog, and where the owners could teach their dominance or alpha status to him. We were afraid that even if we could assert our dominance over him, we would not be able to teach our cats to treat him the same way, and definately not a child.


This morning before we brought him back to the SPCA I played with him for at least an hour or two more, and he was again the sweetest dog I have ever encountered. All he wanted to do was love and be loved in return. He let me play fetch with him the entire time, and I once again startetd taking his toy and throwing it. No problems at all again, but I couldn't help but be extremely wary that whatever set him off the first time might return. It was unnerving.

Since dropping him off, we've both been a wreck. Even though he only stayed with us for one night, we both fell in love with him. He really was the sweetest dog, and we both can't drop the feeling that we may have reacted out of ignorance rather than logic.

Is this a behavior that is very normal in dogs? Can it be trained? Can their behavior become more predictable? (I know all animals have a bit of unpredictability, but at least enough for us too trust?)

I think the attachment that we developed will pass as I know the SPCA shelter, and know that he will be placed with a great family if he isn't able to live with us. But at the same time, what if he could make the change?

Did we do the right thing? We aren't willing to risk the health (physical or mental) of our little cats, or ourselves for that matter), if this isn't the right situation for him. Please help!

[jesse's mommy]

Do you want an honest answer as if you did the right thing or not? No you did not. After one night you gave the dog back? The dog is only one and can still be trained. It's still a puppy and anyone can tell you, a puppy is A LOT OF WORK. The dog snapped because it was trying to establish it's place in the pack order. It's up to you to train the dog and make it clear where its order is. No, you did not do the right thing. You didn't even give this dog a chance and personally, I wouldn't advise getting another dog.

[Hunter's_owner]

I fully agree with Jesse's mommy.
The dog is still a puppy and probably wasn't socialized too much, so taking in a puppy involves such training. Puppies are a lot of work, and it will take more than one afternoon of training.

[kigndano]

possisive behavior is exactly what was said - a sign of dominance.

one thing you can do is to TAKE the toy-- if he snaps DO NOT BACK YOUR HAND UP!!

grab the toy and put your hand in front of it -- you have to claim everything -- to show that it is yours and you are giving it to him -- not that he is giving it to you when he brings it back!

i have been working with my pup for over a month now, and he now waits in his crate -- even when i open the door! -- until i say come; then he is allowed to eat. he sits down to get his leash on and off, he sit/stays at doorways when i ask him to -- it just takes time!

i am still having problems as well, but i know it will be a lot of work. it is frustrating at times, and sometimes you feel bad correcting the dog but it HAS to be done

[badger]

I think you went about this with the best of intentions, waited until you had the space, sought out a rescue dog, watched how he interacted with other dogs and cats, and took him home. When everything seemed to be perfect, your expectations shot even higher...until he went for the jewelry .
All shelter dogs have a history. The majority have been abandoned, and who knows what went on before that. I suspect your guy had no training at all; some fool probably picked him up at a pet store on a whim and then dumped him when they realised how much work a puppy can be.
But even if you had picked him up from a blue-ribbon breeder, there would be work to do.
As JM says, he was trying to find his place in the pack, using the only tools he had, and it is your job to show him where his place is through consistent training and kindness. I'm sorry you didn't post earlier; there are loads of dog people here to help you through the early stages, people who have transformed animals with far more serious issues into loving pets.
I'm not surprised your hearts are heavy, because you really didn't give this guy - or, importantly, yourselves - a chance. I don't know what your status is with the SPCA at this point, but if it was me, I'd see if I could negotiate getting him back. Be honest with them.
All is not lost. You just need to see this as an ongoing process, not a picture-perfect end-in-itself.

[gtexan]

Thanks for your honest replies. We definiately need people to be as honest as possible if we're going to to get the situation correct!

To jesses mom, who advised that we handled the situation incorrectly and even went so far as to advise against getting another dog at all, I must say I'm a little disapointed to hear your advice. We have grown up with dogs all our lives, have dealt with many frustrating problems, have been patient and caring dog owners. This was the first time we thought that our lives were actually in danger. Having a dog go for your neck in a manner like this was scary. Maybe it wouldn't be for you, but for us it was. We've never experienced something like that before.

I understand where you are coming with in giving your advice to never get a dog, but if thats the kind of advice I'm going to get here--make 1 mistake and you're banned from having dogs forever--then maybe I posted in the wrong forum. Do you know how many homeless dogs are out there? And do you know how many owners can live up to your expectations? Clearly there is a discrepancy between the two. Now Im not saying that every owner should be laissez-fair because at least they are better than the alternative of euthanasia. But don't you think that if I took the time to detail the story to you and specifically show I intend to make every effort to correct a fault if I indeed acted too swiftly that a homeless dog would be better in my care than in the pound?

If we thought this could be trained, we would have spent the time to train it. Thats why Im posting here. When we made our decision, its because we thought this was the personality of the dog. I believe that dogs do have personalities, some more aggressive than others, and having known that poor cocker spaniel breeding in the past has lead to genetically aggressive behavior, I thought thats what I might be witnessing. I don't know if genetically bred behavior can be trained, so thats part of the reason why I posted.

Anyway, thanks again for the honest replies. If you honestly belieive this was the wrong choice, I want to hear that.

The only thing Im a little concerned with in the replies is that I don't know if I accurately described the reaction. I have dealt with dogs with object guarding related agression who take their toys into the corners and growl if you come near.

This wasn't like that. He took the toy, sat in my lap, and then went for my throat in a seemingly random manner. 9 times out of 10 I took the toy and he was happy. Then 1 time he snapped. And it wasn't a quick snap at my hand. It was a snarling lunge at my neck. I wasn't sure how we could work on training this, as Im scared to elicit the behavior. What if he actually did bite me? Im not scared of dog bites anywhere else but there.

If I can get a consensus that this can be corrected, however, I will correct it. The dog was that sweet. In the remaining 99% of the time we interacted with him, he never responded with anything other than 100% affection.

Again, Im sorry if I reacted to swiftly. The reason we did was so he would be available for another family, and to prevent both he and us from becoming too attached. Im trying to look at it as if I prevented him from sleeping in a shelter for 1 night, even though I now know I probably did something wrong.

I have a meeting with the shelter this morning around 12 noon (EST), so any advice you can give me before then will be great.

Is this type of behavior really something that can be trained, or does it sound at all like the inbred aggression sometimes seen in improperly bred cocker spaniels? If its the latter, is that trainable as well?

Im really thankful for the replies. We really want to make this situation right, and for that reason, we're posting here and looking for help. Thanks again

[clm]

Originally Posted by gtexan

Thanks for your honest replies. We definiately need people to be as honest as possible if we're going to to get the situation correct!

To jesses mom, who advised that we handled the situation incorrectly and even went so far as to advise against getting another dog at all, I must say I'm a little disapointed to hear your advice. We have grown up with dogs all our lives, have dealt with many frustrating problems, have been patient and caring dog owners. This was the first time we thought that our lives were actually in danger.
Lives in danger from a 20lb cocker ? Please. Having a dog go for your neck in a manner like this was scary. Maybe it wouldn't be for you, but for us it was. We've never experienced something like that before. So your solution to not having dealt with something before is not to deal with it at all basically

I understand where you are coming with in giving your advice to never get a dog, but if thats the kind of advice I'm going to get here--make 1 mistake and you're banned from having dogs forever--then maybe I posted in the wrong forum. Do you know how many homeless dogs are out there? And do you know how many owners can live up to your expectations? Lots of homeless dogs....but YOU need to be prepared to consult a trainer if you have issues with the dog you adopt, you DON'T return it because it has issues you've never dealt with.
Clearly there is a discrepancy between the two. Now Im not saying that every owner should be laissez-fair because at least they are better than the alternative of euthanasia. But don't you think that if I took the time to detail the story to you and specifically show I intend to make every effort to correct a fault if I indeed acted too swiftly that a homeless dog would be better in my care than in the pound?

If we thought this could be trained, we would have spent the time to train it. Thats why Im posting here. When we made our decision, its because we thought this was the personality of the dog. I believe that dogs do have personalities, some more aggressive than others, and having known that poor cocker spaniel breeding in the past has lead to genetically aggressive behavior, I thought thats what I might be witnessing. I don't know if genetically bred behavior can be trained, so thats part of the reason why I posted.Oh I see, so you are a trainer are you, and you know this dog didn't have an issue that could be corrected. You need a trainer to work with this dog and more importantly work with you to know how to become the alpha to this dog, period.

Anyway, thanks again for the honest replies. If you honestly belieive this was the wrong choice, I want to hear that.

The only thing Im a little concerned with in the replies is that I don't know if I accurately described the reaction. I have dealt with dogs with object guarding related agression who take their toys into the corners and growl if you come near.

This wasn't like that. He took the toy, sat in my lap, and then went for my throat in a seemingly random manner. 9 times out of 10 I took the toy and he was happy. Then 1 time he snapped. And it wasn't a quick snap at my hand. It was a snarling lunge at my neck. I wasn't sure how we could work on training this, as Im scared to elicit the behavior. What if he actually did bite me? Im not scared of dog bites anywhere else but there.
I'm wondering how on earth you would ever handle the snarling biting and lunging of playful puppy who didn't know any better either, some dogs growl and snarl while playing, sounds sinister, but it's not. Chances are it was going for your necklace if you had one on.

If I can get a consensus that this can be corrected, however, I will correct it. The dog was that sweet. In the remaining 99% of the time we interacted with him, he never responded with anything other than 100% affection.
Only a trainer can tell you by seeing both you and the dog together.

Again, Im sorry if I reacted to swiftly. The reason we did was so he would be available for another family, and to prevent both he and us from becoming too attached. Im trying to look at it as if I prevented him from sleeping in a shelter for 1 night, even though I now know I probably did something wrong.

I have a meeting with the shelter this morning around 12 noon (EST), so any advice you can give me before then will be great.

Is this type of behavior really something that can be trained, or does it sound at all like the inbred aggression sometimes seen in improperly bred cocker spaniels? If its the latter, is that trainable as well?

Im really thankful for the replies. We really want to make this situation right, and for that reason, we're posting here and looking for help. Thanks again

Sorry, you can probably tell, I'm with Jesse's mom on this one. If you adopt a shelter dog or buy a dog from a breeder, you need to be prepared to deal with whatever issues it might have. If you decide to adopt this poor dog again, then get yourself a trainer to come to your house and work on any issues this dog has.

Cindy

[LavenderRott]

Dogs who have resource guarding issues (possession aggression) usually constantly and consistanly guard their objects.

I have to wonder - would those who think you made the wrong decision still feel that this was the wrong decision if you had adopted a larger dog? If you had a lab that lunged for your wife's throat - I wonder if they still think you should keep and train the pup?

CLM - FYI - ANY BREED OF DOG IS CAPABLE OF KILLING OR SERIOUSLY INJURING SOMEONE. It is a very dangerous thing to think that a dog is harmless because of his size. One the list of dogs that have been involved in fatal attacks in the last 20 years - a pomeranian cross, a west highland white, a jack russel, and a dachshund. And no, they didn't all kill infants. If memory serves, all but the pomx killed adults.

[gtexan]

No offense, but why are so many people so condescending on here? Im looking for a little help, not a guilt ridden diatribe. I had no idea I would be treated with such rude responses. Even if you disagree with everything I've posted, I would at least expect a little respect and politeness in the response. I would think people who preach on treating pets as children would treat real people with at least some respect.

Insulting me for actually being afraid of a dog attacking me, no matter the size? Real mature. Liek it or not, when you are sitting on the ground and a dog goes for your neck, I am frightened. This thread isn't about you. If you aren't scared, so be it. But it scared me. I don't care how big the dog is, but if he has sharp teeth and can fit a tennis ball in his mouth, it can damage my neck if he did decide to bite.

Secondly, there is a difference between a puppy growling and playing and a 1 year old dog lunging at my neck. And no, I had no jewelry on at the time, either.

Thirdly, I am well aware that in almost every situation, I would be able to become alpha to the dog. I know that my wife would be able to accomplish this as well. But what about my cats? What about if I have real children in the future? What about when my family back home comes to visit? Will the dog respect them?

Finally, Im tired of being defensive. Thank you to kingdano, badger, ancient girl, lavender, and whoever else was kind enough to give me a polite response. I might not agree with everything you posted, but I enjoyed reading it and I thank you for taking the time and courtesy to speak to me as an equal.

To the rest of you lot, I suggest you learn the difference between people and dogs. While it may be ok for you to talk to your dogs in this manner in order to establish your position as alpha in your home, I do not find your condescending tone to be helping me. I do not appreciate being talked down to, and my guess is that most other human beings don't either.

Your responses are causing me to become so defensive that it almost poisoning the image of this dog in my mind. He really was a sweet dog, and I think his problem can be fixed. But I REFUSE to make that decision based on guilt. And thats what you seem to be attempting to make me do

[gtexan]

double post.

[kigndano]

if his behavoir was as sporadic as you say then he may just have psychological/temperament problems from his breeding line.

im pretty sure that THESE types of problems (the ones from the breeding line) are not something you can train away, and usually get worse with age.

someone please correct me if im mistaken, i dont want to give poor advice here.

[ancientgirl]

I don't currently have a dog, but I've been in households with dogs before. I think you should have given the puppy a chance. Sure, you got nervous because he went for your neck, but those are things you need to work on. He needs to be shown he's not in charge.

Heck, I've got cats, and every now and then while they are playing, they decide to bite, or scratch. I reprimand them and they understand what they did was wrong. I'm certainly not going to give them up for that, they don't know better, so its my job to teach them.

You have to look at animals like they are children. This puppy is young and he needs attention and guidance. Would you have been so apt to return him if he were a child that had done something wrong? I'm not trying to sound like a jerk, but that's the way I try to look at things. You have to look at him like a child, that has to be taught how to act and has to be shown what behavior is not acceptable, and that takes time.

Is there any way you can get him back? Perhaps if you spoke to to a trainer and told them what he did they can give you some pointers on how to correct that behavior.