#31
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Well, I guess I've been intiated into the poke-yourself-with-your cat's needle club. Ouch and lol. It should keep me aware that we're all flesh and blood.
The (new) vet, believing the diabetes should be addressed first, suggested EVO, as the 2nd best thing to raw. EVO makes no health benefits claim for cats with CRF, but does so for diabetic cats. Back on the fence with that one. I don't eat chicken or red meat, only fish sometimes, so I'd have to buy meat for that experiment. The (new) vet prefers EVO over Wellness. He believes Wellness has too many added ingredients that could be hard on her kidneys. She is eating a half and half mixture of Natural Balance Salmon Formula and Wellness Turkey right now. And Nim: we all have our good and bad days. What to do? We do what we can. |
#32
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The original Turkey and Chicken Evo is just too high in phosphorus to be feeding a CRF cat. Plus, it has even more extraneous ingredients than Wellness. The 95% ones are decent though, except there is some doubt about the phosphorus content of the venison flavour. Is the vet referring to the additional fruits and vegetables in Wellness? Those are really minuscule, and we know that because the total carb content of Wellness (grain-free varieties) is quite low. It's certainly not something I would be worried about, with either CRF or diabetes.
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"To close your eyes will not ease another's pain." ~ Chinese Proverb “We must not refuse to see with our eyes what they must endure with their bodies.” ~ Gretchen Wyler |
#33
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You can try other things first to get her to eat more & leave the raw option for later if you want. Many people are vegetarians or otherwise not comfortable with raw & thats okay, there is nothing that says you have to try it. One of the other members who also has a recently diagnosed CRF cat was feeding one of the NB flavours & the response she got when emailing the company for the phosphorus amount is: Quote:
Ouch!!
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Avoid biting when a simple growl will do The Spirit Lives As Long As Someone Who Lives Remembers You - Navaho Saying |
#34
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It's a cat's life. I'm just going along for the ride.
Thanks for helping me navigate through the mental forks on this mind-bending road. If it's good for diabetes, it's not good for CRF, and vice-versa, and back and forth and up and down with UTI and so on between conflicting vet opinions. Yikes. Hole-y tongue piercing, sugarcatmom! That's an eye-popping story. Pro and novice alike must be present with needle in hand. I get it! Glad it wasn't anything worse. You sure have that blood test down packed. With all the poking going on, my kitten-lady is only an ear-poke away from becoming a full-body pin-cushion. It seems a bit overwhelming to me to try, again, but it's on the agenda. I have no idea what the (new) vet meant by the added ingredients in Wellness that EVO doesn't have. I didn't see it, either. The info you extended about EVO is really helpful. If I can stretch my dollar and legs to a store that carries it, I'll sample the lowest phos one. Yes, I was so-so-so happy when my kitten-lady DEVOURED a wet food for the first time in her life -- and it so happens it was the Salmon Natural Balance she fell in love with it -- instantly -- after rejecting COUNTLESS others. There was no trickery involved with getting her to dig into it. Love at first scent. At least that flavor is low in carbs. It was only after I heard back from the company about the phos when my party balloon deflated. Wellness Turkey is the only one flavor in the grain-free variety she'll eat, so far, and she'll only lick the bowl clean if it's mixed in with the NB Salmon. We keep experimenting, but I need to make sure she eats more than kibble-nibbles for her insulin shots. Do you think a phosphorous binder will be helpful with meals like that? I read that binders are only good with low phos diets to begin with.... I wouldn't impose my vegetarian beliefs on a cat -- but I just have thoughts about "fresh hunt" versus "butcher-block stock." The bottom line is if it's healthy for her, I'm game.
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“The soul is the same in all living creatures, although the body of each is different.” —Hippocrates |
#35
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Must be something in that Natural Balance that's got them hooked
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Yes a phos binder will help, though I'm not sure how effect it would be with such high phos content, your vet would have the dosage amounts based on the amounts in the food. Obviously it's easier to remove less phos content from the food then more, so the info out there would likely be based on using binders w/low phos foods. Some info here: http://www.felinecrf.org/treatments.htm#high_phosphorus
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Avoid biting when a simple growl will do The Spirit Lives As Long As Someone Who Lives Remembers You - Navaho Saying |
#36
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Interesting. No binder ever for Duffy? Kitten-lady's phosphorous is normal, too. Vet 1 said keep on with Purina DM dry and give a calcium based binder to PREVENT disease from progressing.
Vet 2 said switch to EVO and no need for a binder because phos is normal. I thought raw would be particularly high in phosphorous and bad for CRF - haven't my done homework there. The NB/Wellness mixture averages out to about 1.5 phos based on DM, if my calculations are near accurate. Not ideal, no worse than the vet's Purina. diet-- it's the most important medicine.
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“The soul is the same in all living creatures, although the body of each is different.” —Hippocrates |
#37
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Absolutely!!
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"To close your eyes will not ease another's pain." ~ Chinese Proverb “We must not refuse to see with our eyes what they must endure with their bodies.” ~ Gretchen Wyler |
#38
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Terumo 20 gauge Ultra Thin Wall (UTW)
This is the best needle I've yet used for sub q fluids. 100 mL dispensed in no time. Amazing. It felt quicker than my 18G runs. Most importantly, she didn't flinch the way she does when 18G get inserted. And no leaks.
Blessings for recommending this. Blessings to the inventor and manufacturer for making this option available for all pets (and pet owners) who have to endure consistent needle pokes. VETS SHOULD USE THIS Terumo 20G instead of the Monojet 18G. It is far superior. I am going to hand my vet a couple of these next time I go back there. If I was taking my pet to the vet for regular sub q fluids, I'd insist that s/he use these, instead.
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“The soul is the same in all living creatures, although the body of each is different.” —Hippocrates |
#39
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95% Venison: 0.62 95% Chicken & Turkey: 0.23 95% Duck: 0.35 Their regular Turkey & Chicken wet is 0.38 So, Venison is not a good option for CRF cats. If anyone has contradictory info, I'm open to hear.
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“The soul is the same in all living creatures, although the body of each is different.” —Hippocrates |
#40
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In an absent-minded, multi-tasking moment, I came close to actually eating some. I was shuffling around with a used butter knife in hand, and the way someone licks frosting off a spatula, I almost licked the butterknife with NB Salmon on it. Its scent drew me closer to it, and for a nano-second, I forgot it was cat food. Wellness was the second non-gagging can I opened -- the Turkey, especially. Its texture is less creamy. She likes that one, too. I haven't confused that one with human turkey spread, though. DEAR NATURAL BALANCE: PLEASE MAKE A LOW PHOS CAT FOOD!!!
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“The soul is the same in all living creatures, although the body of each is different.” —Hippocrates |
#41
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About 6 months after her diagnosis I took Duffy to a Homeopathic Vet, went RAW, started on holistic supplements & homeopathic remedies & never looked back I personally would hold off on a binder as long as the blood value is normal & she will eat a lower phos food. And if I went with a phos binder I would use an aluminum based binder not a calcium based one so as not to create further imbalance in the calcuim : phos ratio, or create issues with the blood calcium value. The aluminum based ones are also apparently more potent. http://www.felinecrf.org/treatments.htm#binder_types Quote:
For me I wouldn't go higher than about 1.25% dm phos or about 230mg phos/100kcal Quote:
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I will also pass this Excel Spreadsheet along for you Chronological Lab Results (it will ask you to download & save - I've done so many times without issue). I found it one night searching for CRF info, it was posted by a CRF cat mom (on a website I lost track of ) as a way to keep track of appts, results etc., I found it an excellent tool for keeping track of progress on lab tests & to compare results quickly, just change the "normal range" values to what your lab has listed on the test results.
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Avoid biting when a simple growl will do The Spirit Lives As Long As Someone Who Lives Remembers You - Navaho Saying |
#42
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Yes, agreed - lower phos is the goal.
After several rejections, I'm happy that she has now accepted Wellness chicken -- but only when mixed in with wellness turkey -- and Natural balance Salmon. This combo makes her meow for more! THis is a first! With an approx. 1.21 total phos - I say YAY! We're headed in a good direction, gratefully. I have left several messages for Wellness and have not received a response regarding their phos levels. I'm going with the only #s I can find on-line: .92 turkey 1.0 chicken No one knows how long anyone or any creature will live, whether they are in perfect or compromised health, but it is so beautiful to realize that the CRF is not an immediate death sentence, which is how I felt leaving the vet's office over a month ago. It makes me so happy to see her REALLY enjoy a nutritious food. I'll be sampling real liver and chicken, soon, but I'll start off boiling, first. Her urination/thirst has never been so infrequent since I upped her insulin. The last I checked, which I hope will remain consistent, there was no glucose indicated in the urine. She's doing better than she has in a REALLY long time!
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“The soul is the same in all living creatures, although the body of each is different.” —Hippocrates |
#43
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I'm guessing you got these numbers here http://webpages.charter.net/katkarma/canfood.htm? This list is actually from 2003 & not currently updated. When Duffy was first diagnosed in 2007 I emailed Wellness for their actual numbers & was sent the full lists for every food they made at that time both dry & canned. Dry Matter Phosphorus (2007) - Canned: Chicken = 1.15 Chicken & Herring = 1.48 Chicken & Lobster = 1.31 Beef & Chicken = 1.17 Turkey = 1.05 Turkey & Salmon = 1.44 Salmon & Trout = 1.28 Sardine, Shrimp & Crab = 1.30 Kitten = 1.15 Beef & Salmon = 1.06 I know some of the fish flavours have acceptable (or slightly above) phos levels, but I always tried to stay away from fish as much as possible, mainly for the "addictive" reasons ie if at any point you had to feed them something that didn't have any fish in it they would be more likely to refuse (like my mum's healthy non-crf cat won't touch any canned except tuna picky little brat ) Quote:
So happy to hear that
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Avoid biting when a simple growl will do The Spirit Lives As Long As Someone Who Lives Remembers You - Navaho Saying |
#44
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Those new numbers mean, back to the mixing board. That's a link I definitely visited. I suspected it wasn't up to date.
Thanks! And why not just add this to the numbers mix: Called Wellness, again, and got these (as-fed) numbers: phos/carbs Turkey .28 / 1.67 Chicken .31 / 1.74 Turkey & Salmon .31/4.73 Beef & Salmon .26 (did she mean chicken?) (beef & chicken made her queasy.) Your mum's cat is finicky? Say it isn't so! How unheard of. I tried boiling liver and chicken. She loved it. She loved the chicken broth, too -- and it was just plain ol' chicken water, no spices, no flavorings. Her energy level and alertness was observably better after these treats. I'd like to make more home-made meals. I'm definitely not comfortable with raw at this point. I am too concerned about bacteria. But I did present raw chicken thighs at here before cooking. She sniffed out of curiousity and walked away. When I presented her with the cooked thighs, she jumped up and dug into as if she was waiting for this her entire life!
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“The soul is the same in all living creatures, although the body of each is different.” —Hippocrates |
#45
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There is a beef & salmon flavour (light blue can).
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http://feline-nutrition.org/nutritio...nella-raw-food http://consciouscat.net/2010/03/08/f...yth-from-fact/ http://rawfed.com/myths/bacteria.html I would say that there really is no point to making a homemade cooked diet. You might as well just save yourself the effort and buy a decent commercial canned food in that case. The whole point of homemade diets for cats is to take advantage of the freshness factor, which means RAW. But for sure, giving your kitty pieces of cooked meat for treats is a great idea .
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"To close your eyes will not ease another's pain." ~ Chinese Proverb “We must not refuse to see with our eyes what they must endure with their bodies.” ~ Gretchen Wyler |
#46
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Just keep in mind that cooking destroys some essential nutrients and cooked meat should only be used as a treat . You may find that slightly cooking the chicken, leaving some raw behind will entice your kitty, plus give her the essential nutrients her body requires, and you are killing any bacteria that is on the outside of the meat so you will feel more secure. There is nothing that beats a properly prepared, species appropriate diet to help heal the body. Sending lots and lots of for your kitty.
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Cat maid to: Rose semi feral, a cpietra rescue, female tabby (approx 13 yrs) Jasper RIP (2001-2018) Sweet Pea RIP (2004?-2014) Puddles RIP (1996-2014) Snowball RIP (1991-2005) In a cat's eye, all things belong to cats.-English Proverb “While we are free to choose our actions, we are not free to choose the consequences of our actions.” Stephen R. Covey |
#47
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providing they haven't changed the moisture level: Turkey & Salmon (2010) dry matter phosphorus = 1.27 That's quite a jump in carb level though for Turkey & Salmon 4.73 as fed from 2007s 1.79 as fed The others you posted are the same, so the rest of the list is likely still correct from 2007. and yes it is Beef & Salmon, actually has slightly better numbers than the Beef & Chicken but I didn't feed any fish formulas so not sure how the taste would go over I should give you the carb numbers too: 2007 (T&S 2010) - Canned Dry Matter phos/carb: Chicken = 1.15/6.48 Chicken & Herring = 1.48/8.40 Chicken & Lobster = 1.31/15.16 Beef & Chicken = 1.17/5.91 Turkey = 1.05/6.22 Turkey & Salmon = 1.44/7.35 Salmon & Trout = 1.28/11.17 Sardine, Shrimp & Crab = 1.30/19.82 Kitten = 1.15/7.40 Beef & Salmon = 1.06/8.66 Quote:
Sometimes it takes awhile for them to recognize raw meat as food since they haven't had it before and are therefore naturally suspicious, the aroma of cooked meat is also stronger than raw. scm & L4h are correct for cats & dogs bacteria in raw fed meat is not as much of an issue as it is with people, their immune & digestive systems take care of most of it on their own.
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Avoid biting when a simple growl will do The Spirit Lives As Long As Someone Who Lives Remembers You - Navaho Saying |
#48
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Thanks for your input and most of all the good vibes, Love4himies! (lol on the "cat maid" tag~ we must be working in the same union!)
Ease relieves Dis-ease. Good ol' chicken soup. How fantastic that chicken broth can be good for her body and tastebuds! Now that's the kind of meds that make us both happy. I poured a batch of broth into an ice-cube tray. (She doesn't know what to do with it in frozen form - not into licking ice on a hot summer day, apparently.) I set out a cube yesterday which she didn't touch it all day, and then I forgot to dump it before bed time. By the time I woke in the morning, it was empty -- including a tiny piece of fatty chicken. I am assuming it was her that ate it! So, that's good for when I can't be home and want to leave something for "later." (I have to figure out how to make that work for wet food, too. It gets crusty when left out too long.) Anyhoo... Next round, I'll boil the chicken thighs in less time and see if she digs into it "medium-rare." Oh, and my bad -- got confused about beef and salmon wellness. That was the flavor she tried -- and got queasy over. I tested it twice just to make sure it was that flavor. I tried it against my better judgment - wondering when and where in the wild a tiny cat would hunt or find a cow to eat. And I know other cats don't have a problem with it, but it's no los if we stay away from it. I steer away from pork ingredients, as well -- for the same reasoning. Venison is too high in phosphorous, but I could see that in the food chain. Big cats eat deer -- and I've seen my cat interact with wild deer. She intimidates deer -- as well as squirrels and chipmunks. No one is canning squirrels, are they? (Commercial food has to be palatable to the human, as well, or they'd be selling farm-raised frozen mice.) Peace.
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“The soul is the same in all living creatures, although the body of each is different.” —Hippocrates |
#49
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http://www.rodentpro.com/catalog.asp?prod=3 http://www.hare-today.com/index.php?cPath=23_47
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"To close your eyes will not ease another's pain." ~ Chinese Proverb “We must not refuse to see with our eyes what they must endure with their bodies.” ~ Gretchen Wyler |
#50
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I used to work at a zoo and would see the handlers pull these babies -- or rather, full grown adults -- out of the pantry freezer. I'd leave before the big chef knife was swung, so I remain in my ignorant bliss as to how the zoo kitchen prepares these delicasees. I'm waiting for the day we see a commercial featuring mouse flavored Friskies. This is why commercially-fed, urban, domesticated cats don't know what to do with a real mouse, except play with it, at best. And since we poison rodents in the wild, we sure wouldn't want these cats developing a taste for peach fuzzies. What a wild mess!
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“The soul is the same in all living creatures, although the body of each is different.” —Hippocrates |
#51
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Converting As-Fed to DM
Why am I getting a different phos # than what is listed above?
This is the formula I am using: 100-78 (moisture) = 22 (DM) .28 (Phos) divided by 22 (DM) = .0127 That's not 1.27% phos? What am I missing here?
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“The soul is the same in all living creatures, although the body of each is different.” —Hippocrates |
#52
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Multiply your final number 0.127 by 100 to bring it back to the percentage. 0.127*100=1.27%
100-moisture=dry matter; phos/dry matter*100 100-moisture=dry matter phos/dry matter *100 100-78=22 .28/22=0.0127 0.0127*100=1.27% Just make sure that you are using the moisture content from each flavour to do the conversion as the various canned flavours can range between ~70-85% moisture. In the spreadsheet Wellness sent me with their values & conversions they have a slightly different way doing the formula but arrives at the same result: phos/((100-moisture)/100) .28/((100-78)/100)=1.27 Break it down to inner most bracket first (100-moisture) to get the dry matter 100-78=22 Then the outer bracket ( () /100) 22/100 = .22 Then whats outside the brackets phos / () .28/.22 = 1.27 Good to hear she's liking the chicken stock cubes
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Avoid biting when a simple growl will do The Spirit Lives As Long As Someone Who Lives Remembers You - Navaho Saying |
#53
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I appreciate the breakdown.
So, the Turkey phos went from 1.05, as listed, to 1.27 -- that's a whole new perspective. Again, is there something I am missing from this calculation? Is the Ash ignored? I do wish manufacturers could help us along with publishing these numbers on their websites.
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“The soul is the same in all living creatures, although the body of each is different.” —Hippocrates |
#54
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Ash is not involved in this calculation, ash is used if you are checking carbohydrate content.
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Avoid biting when a simple growl will do The Spirit Lives As Long As Someone Who Lives Remembers You - Navaho Saying |
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