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Old December 9th, 2009, 01:42 PM
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Question Is Three A Crowd... when they're all female?

So long ago I got a male Golden who taught me everything I know about dogs. Poor guy sat happily through even my most ridiculous mistakes, and still turned out pretty darn good. About three years before he passed away, we brought home a little five week old female rott/acd mix to brighten his days.

When he passed away, we knew that our rottx Lexus was going to need a friend. She moped for a month. We were looking for another acd pup, found a litter and picked the cutest female pup, instead of the male we had decided on. We brought home Fable.

Fable turned out to be a wonderful dog, and so we brought home another pup of the same breeding, Juno. We were looking for a blue merle male (Fable is red merle) and the only merle pup was Juno.

We now find ourselves in the position of having three bitches in the house. All are intact, and will likely stay that way for some time. No, they will not be bred.

Lexus is the alpha dog. At this point Fable and Juno are starting to work out Beta. Juno is only 5 months old, and about twice a day they get into a serious fight. By serious I mean everything but drawing blood. They grumble and wrestle fairly seriously quite a bit, but there's generally a mitigating factor when they really get into it, like dinner time.

I'm a believer in dominance theory. Not the heavy handed you can't pee unless I say yes type, but the type that accepts that there is an heirarchy in the household that involves dogs AND people.

So do I let them work it out on their own, provided there's no injury?

Do I interrupt them Cesar style, as in "I'm the alpha and only I can decide if you can act like that!" even though this does little for when I am not around...

I need to nip this in the bud, or at least lay a foundation. When these two girls hit sexual maturity in 6-18mos, I am going to have a possible issue on my hands.

Suggestions? Comments? All are welcome.
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Lexus - Rottweiler/Cattle Dog - Raw fed, lover of all things humorous
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And of course, the cats Jasper and Pey'j, and the current flock Kenya, Kirby, Sunny, Simone and Duffy.

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Old December 9th, 2009, 04:03 PM
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Regardless of whether or not you step in, your dogs will have a ranking among themselves. It's normal, natural, and will happen.

I personally don't let my dogs get too out of control in the home in regards to eachother, I keep tabs on each one and their behavior as much as humanly possible. All of my dogs know that our oldest female, Blaze, is for sure our "top dog".
But Blaze knows (as do the rest) that they listen and respect my home and the people in it. What we say goes, period.

I do let my dogs wrestle and play in the house, but I don't let it get near as crazy as I do when they're outside, simply because I have a toddler walking around. You know your dogs best, what is just 'play' and what is getting more aggressive.

I always step in if I think the play is turning too rough, for everyones safety.
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Old December 9th, 2009, 04:37 PM
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I don't think of my dogs as being alpha and beta, they switch "places" all the time. But I do think of myself as a leader, most times, while other times I take a step back.

Given the breeds mix, I'd expect them to play rough. Not sure what you meant by dinner being the mitigating factor, as well as the people hierarchy in your household...

I would most definitely make sure that everyone knows what's accepted and what's not (i.e., rough play is great, fights are not). I would also suggest to get involved in this because some times, dogs can't figure it out on their own if you have two hard headed equally gifted individuals. If they do figure it out, it might be too late for one of them. To put this in context, I refer here to dogs who have a home, the street dogs know better.

You already know the what, possibly the when, it remains to be determined why they're going for, besides what you think it is, and who does what.

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Old December 9th, 2009, 04:53 PM
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They only fight when food is involved? How about just teaching them their places and not to bother the others when eating . Same goes for toys. Our guys sit and wait for their bowls and eat when I say "ok." When done, they either sit back in their places or walk out of the kitchen. They've even transferred what we taught them to the outdoors. They can all have a chunk of meat/bone and they go to their own places, never bothering one another, and I don't even need to be with them to supervise.

Same sex packs 'normally' don't cause problems, it's when you add an opposite sex where you'll really see dogs vying for top position. Good training and learning to read their body language goes a long way to interrupt and prevent any serious fights.
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Old December 9th, 2009, 05:14 PM
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Thanks everyone, I'll be taking all your points into consideration.

I do break up the fights (better referred to as squabbles at this point) when they start to cross the line into a fight.

They break up easily, a voice correction is enough to get them to stop.

As for the dinner issues, they wait outside a baby gate while dinner is prepared in the kitchen. Then they are let in one at a time, very orderly, Lexus, Fable then Juno. They all have to lay down and wait before they are allowed to eat. The squabble begins when Fable and Juno are waiting while Lex is eating.

They are very manageable at this point, just wonder if anyone who has a multi-bitch household has had any experience.
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Lexus - Rottweiler/Cattle Dog - Raw fed, lover of all things humorous
Fable - Cattle Dog/Australian Shepherd - Grain Free - hyper, hyperintelligent, apple of our eye

And of course, the cats Jasper and Pey'j, and the current flock Kenya, Kirby, Sunny, Simone and Duffy.

Last but not least, the endless stream of incoming and outgoing rescue pups!
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Old December 9th, 2009, 05:21 PM
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At this moment, there's 4 females and 1 male here. When the male is not present, we've never had a single issue .

Can you put all their bowls down at the same time while they wait and allow them to eat together?
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Old December 9th, 2009, 07:41 PM
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If you're able to break up these "fights" with just a verbal correction, they're not real fights IMO. Normal, healthy, stable dog interactions can include a lot of snarling, growling, barking, teeth-bearing, and rough wrestling. You cannot force a group of dogs into a particular hierarchy, so they will use these (any many other much more subtle) forms of language to communicate their status with each other. We have three spayed females. One is undeniably at the bottom of the totem pole while the other two are much more dominant; the eldest is the alpha and the middle dog is very "status-obsessed", so she tests Gracie's status as alpha often. When Heidi turned about 1 year old, she really decided to push the boundaries, and we had a handful of fights. REAL fights, as in blood was drawn and it took two people (or one very tired person) to break them up. These are really the only dog-dog interactions I will break up, unless there are warning signs that such a fight is looming...my experience, though, tells me that the precursors to a status-related fight are incredibly subtle and difficult to detect...the normal wrestling-type fights have never lead to an all-out brawl, and I don't get involved in these. I would say that the situation has 95% resolved itself now and Gracie has retained her alpha status.
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Old December 9th, 2009, 07:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by babysweet View Post
Thanks everyone, I'll be taking all your points into consideration.

I do break up the fights (better referred to as squabbles at this point) when they start to cross the line into a fight.

They break up easily, a voice correction is enough to get them to stop.

As for the dinner issues, they wait outside a baby gate while dinner is prepared in the kitchen. Then they are let in one at a time, very orderly, Lexus, Fable then Juno. They all have to lay down and wait before they are allowed to eat. The squabble begins when Fable and Juno are waiting while Lex is eating.

They are very manageable at this point, just wonder if anyone who has a multi-bitch household has had any experience.
Disclaimer: I have only one female and male at the moment, both unfixed. But I usually had several females and one or 2 males. We had to keep an eye on males when one female was in season, but we never had problems with the females.

Back on topic, maybe those "fights" are due to age, anxiety, frustration, something along those lines. In some cases it is easier to prevent unwanted behaviours by manipulating the environment, such allowing them access to food at once, not having them wait and watch another dog eat. It is unfair... You can also redirect them when you think that they're going to go a bit too far, in order to avoid separating the "fight".

I suppose that the order you allow them to eat goes hand in hand with the dominance and pack order I know that what a stranger, one with couple posts none the less , says has little value to you or anyone else. But there is a ton of empirical research suggesting that dominance is not the method to go. Just sayin'...

Cos
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Old December 9th, 2009, 08:20 PM
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hello babysweet,

I have two males in the house and two females. My males often squabble since my bulldog is dominance obsessed. Like Bendy, I left most of it work itself out- it is really just communication through rough play. When I am tense, and worried about it- it escalate. Like Cos mentioned, I do manipulate the environment, and manage the communication because it does drive me bit batty. It is noisy and can just be irritating.
I have empathy for you- let us know how it goes..
Like Bendy I have had one actual fight that needed intervention. What an experience that was, and I am taking steps to make sure it never happens again.
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Old December 9th, 2009, 08:23 PM
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Hey, I just realized that last post is completely conflicting.
I let most normal communication go, and then at a certain threshold I stop it. I do manage some things that I know will cause tension among the dogs to prevent some conflicts from starting at all.
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Old December 9th, 2009, 10:15 PM
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I agree with bendyfoot that if these were full-on fights then a verbal correction wouldn't stop it. It sounds like pretty normal dog behaviour, especially with the breeds you have.

I have found that we can bring females into our house with little trouble (for dogsitting, playdates, etc.) and both Kailey and the visiting female have no problems. Where we run into trouble is if a male is introduced, especially if we run into an un-neutered one while hiking. At that point my sweet boy Chase who loves the girlies will turn into a snarling beast and rip out a few chunks of the other dog's fur.

This is of course only my experience, based on my dog's personalities, but I have generally found that females are more compatible as a pack then males. Not to say males can't be.....I just find the females tend to be more laid-back.

Also, considering your three are not spayed, I would never, EVER introduce a male to try to "balance" things out. Mine are both fixed and my male is super-possessive of his sister. I would see nothing but escalating bad behaviour if you started mixing up the genders of your pack unless all your females got fixed.
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Old December 10th, 2009, 07:16 PM
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I have all females in my home. At the most, I had five at once (four of mine and one foster). Mine are all spayed and other than a couple of full-on fights (in almost 12 years) they pretty much get along. Of course, there have been a few skirmishes where one or the other just got fed up with the "attitude" and got the instigator down on her back and stood over her but never have they brought blood. The only other times I have had trouble with my girls is when I have had male foster dogs - intact or neutered - they do not like male dogs. If one of the girls growled or "went after" the male foster, they all joined in. They literally try to beat the crap out of the poor guy. Because of this, I don't foster males anymore. It's not fair to the boys. My girls are completely civil if the foster is a female though.
The two actual fights were between Laci and Lodi (littermates) and one time it was over Christmas presents under the tree and the other was over a chew toy. I do not allow fighting in my house and if one acts like she may be starting something, I say "no, that is NOT allowed" and that is the end of it.
I have only had a couple of male dogs in my life. I prefer females. It's just a personal thing with me - females pee on the carpet but males pee on carpet AND hike to pee on everything else and the biggest selling point with me is...there is nothing in the way when you pet a girl's tummy!
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