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Old December 1st, 2014, 09:12 PM
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SuperWanda SuperWanda is offline
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Senior dog has stopped barking

Hi everyone,
Shiloh has stopped barking. She just turned 16 and based on her weight this essentially makes her almost 100 in human years. For the past few years she has really slowed down physically as well as mentally. I have suspected some cognitive decline as she is a different dog now than she use to be. As a healthy adult, she was an extremely anxious and barked quite a bit as she had separation anxiety so her not barking now seems strange but on the other hand she sleeps more and is less emotional than she ever use to be. She has also lost most of her hearing.

Just thought I'd see if anyone else has experienced this. One thing that I am wondering about it thyroid. I had a panel run in the spring which came back normal but just last month I decided to run a hair test on both my dogs. That gives you mineral levels and it also gives an endocrine index in which Shiloh's thyroid was low so that made me wonder if there is a possible connection between loss of barking and thyroid.

Its so hard sometimes to figure these things oiut when you have such an elderly dog. I find that vets sometimes dont take you seriously when you bring an elderly dog in for care. I have been told so often that my dog is old which is why I have decided to go the holistic route and do the hair test. I feel that this might give me more insight into my dogs health than what conventional vets can do at this point. The hair test was helpful in that it also showed both dogs are low in iron and cobalt. I will try supplementing these and see if energy levels increase but hopefully there is not some kind of thyroid problem brewing.
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Old December 1st, 2014, 10:39 PM
MaxaLisa MaxaLisa is offline
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I believe that there can be a connection between the throat and the thyroid. If the thyroid is inflamed, it cause a pressure-type feeling, and often problems swallowing. I don't think it's a stretch to extend that to maybe barking issues.

I had a hair analysis done for Jazz a long time ago, pretty interesting stuff, and definitely stuff that can't be picked up at a regular vet.

But, also, maybe, if she's not hearing well, she is being less reactive? And thus less barking?
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Old December 1st, 2014, 11:43 PM
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SuperWanda SuperWanda is offline
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How are you and Jazz doing?

Yes, I found the hair test interesting as well but not sure I understand it completly. I kinda hummed and hawed over doing it but there was a hair test sale on so I decided to order a couple. Both dogs were pretty similar in their results but Shiloh had the low thyroid.

Shiloh has occasional problems when eating. For years she would choke on dry food but that seemed to get better when I started home cooking for them although she still has issues with certain things. Might have to look into that although our regular vet has known about this and has checked her throat several times. Don't know if it might have been a subtle issue that was missed or not. Or, maybe it is nothing. Just strange that she doesn't bark. She also used to bark to come inside, especially when it is cold out but she just stands at the door. I keep worrying that one of these cold days I'll forget she's outside.
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Old December 2nd, 2014, 12:26 AM
MaxaLisa MaxaLisa is offline
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We are doing okay here - we might be close to figuring out what is going on with jazz, hopefully our current drug trial will yield some anwers.

I have thyroid issues, and when my autoimmune stuff flairs, my throat feels full, and when I drink liquid more often seems to "go down the wrong pipe", and my voice cracks more. Nothing that would get picked up without a thyroid ultrasound or a fine needle biopsy of the thyroid. So, maybe there is something there.

There is something more sinister that comes to mind, and I really even hate to bring it up, because I know how we worry about everything with seniors, particularly a 16 year old. But, part of neurodegenerative conditions start with hind end stuff, then can affect things like the esophagus, swallowing and eating, and then they move to respiratory. Cognitive decline, at least in humans, can parallel some of these changes.

There are a lot of ways to misinterpret a thyroid panel - do you happen to have a copy of it? You could take a picture or scan and post or send? The thyroid can cause a lot of these symptoms, and it sure would be a nice fix.
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Old December 2nd, 2014, 12:34 AM
MaxaLisa MaxaLisa is offline
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Oh, about that "your dog is just old" thing. That stuff drives me nuts.

I knew Max was sick, and tried a new vet, and she also used the "old" thing. I know she thought I was nuts - I told her he was sick and I was afraid he was dying. Later I found out her had all sorts of issues and he was done in about 6 months I just think that the vets don't have any tools, and so they can't offer much, unless there is something obviously medical to treat.

I think a lot of the holistic stuff does help - I hope the stuff you're tweeking helps!
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Old December 2nd, 2014, 12:01 PM
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hazelrunpack hazelrunpack is offline
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I've noticed that the older our dogs get, the less they bark and freak out at noises that would have driven them crazy a few years earlier. We sort of chalked it up to hearing loss.
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Old December 7th, 2014, 02:04 PM
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SuperWanda SuperWanda is offline
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Thanks for both your thoughts.

How is you pack Hazel?

I'm glad MaxaLisa, that you might be getting some answers for Jazz!

No worries about bringing up the cognitive decline associated with hind end weakness and swallowing issues. I never really thought about the connection there or that it would parallel the human condition but I guess that would be true.

I think I am more accepting of her decline and understand that much of this may be natural to some degree. I often have to remind myself that she is a 16year old dog so although it still upsets me that we are nearing the end of our time together. I do feel lucky that I can still share things with her at this point.

These were her thyroid results from March:

T4 Total
2 Serum 19 nmol/L Range reference (15-53)
TSH
2 Serum 0.26 ng/ml. Range reference (0.01-0.50)

So she was within range for both these values.

It also sounds like there are more accurate thyroid tests out there with Dr. Dodds for example.
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Old December 7th, 2014, 04:15 PM
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hazelrunpack hazelrunpack is offline
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We're just coming off group antibiotics for anaplasmosis and lepto (our 'traditional' autumn scourge ) but otherwise the Pack is doing well!

I've been thinking about the hind end weakness / congitive decline link now that you've both mentioned it. Both Belle and Ember (sister and brother) are showing progressive decline both in the hind end and in their mental state. Belle is seeing boogie-dogs in the corners (seriously....one of the other dogs will clear their throat or cough, and Belle goes scrambling for cover). Ember spends long minutes standing out in the yard, just staring into nothingness. Sometimes I have to go tap him on his shoulder to get his attention.

Of the 8, those 2 are the ones with the weakest hind quarters and the most marked mental issues... They're 12. They're also having more issues with dropping food while trying to eat so I found your comments linking swallowing problems with the hind end weakness and cognitive decline interesting.

It really is hard to watch our babies age, isn't it?

Oh, and when we test for thyroid, we use Dr Dodds, too. They can do an antibody test to see if thyroid decline is due to autoimmune factors (common in English setters) so we do that annually until/unless one of the dogs tests positive for the antibodies and thyroid decline. After that, we can go for the cheaper test for just T4 totals to make sure we have them at the right level of supplement. One thing Dr Dodds does recommend is that if a dog is taking oral thyroxine supplements, they should test in the upper 1/3 to 1/4 of normal...
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Old December 7th, 2014, 10:47 PM
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SuperWanda SuperWanda is offline
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Some of that sounds so familiar. Shiloh will often stand outside and stare at who knows what for long periods of time. The worst part is at night when she wakes me up to go outside. She takes forever to go but then just stands out there like she's waiting for someone to come home. I also have to tap her out of it to get her inside.

She also drops food while eating. Not sure why that is. There is another post about senior dogs and teeth. I wondered if her teeth are so awful they were bothering her but now feel it is linked to her cognitive decline. I stress myself out about her teeth and reading that other post I also don't know if it is better to leave them at this point. I try to brush them but its as if I'm torturing her so I do the best I can and try to get some of that pet gel or oregano spray in her mouth. One thing I do regret is not getting tooth brushing started early because even though I never had any issues when they were younger as they chewed on bones, once they stop doing that and live to a ripe old age, the teeth really start to get bad and then they aren't use to the brush.

Just tonight I found the situation stressful as we took them in the car to the in-laws. I just dont take them in the car anymore because Shiloh's hind end is so weak and our roads are so bumpy with snow they both looked so uncomfortable. Get there and they can't get settled. Shiloh's spinning around in circles for the longest time and can't lie down and she's skidding all around on the hardwood.Then they can't manage the stairs on the deck so we set up our ramp but Timber falls off. Shiloh tries going up beside the ramp and tumbles off as well. Wished I left them at home but then I'd worry Shiloh would need to pee since she seems to have to go out ever 3-4 hours. If we do go out for an entire evening (which isn't often) I try to get my brother come and stay with them as they need that constant supervision now.

I just felt so completely frustrated but at the same time you feel so awful that they are having these troubles and there is nothing you can really do about it.
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Old December 8th, 2014, 12:10 AM
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hazelrunpack hazelrunpack is offline
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I can really relate!
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"We are--each of us--dying; it's how we live in the meantime that makes the difference."

"It's not what you gather, but what you scatter that tells what kind of life you have lived!"

"Be kinder than necessary, for everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle."
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Old December 11th, 2014, 12:08 AM
MaxaLisa MaxaLisa is offline
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I think it's really hard to have seniors, yet very special at the same time.

Jazz here is a young dog with old dog problems - always had a problem eating, drops things from her mouth, has swallowing issues, I grind her food up, the list goes on. She does really well on doxy though.

About those thyroid values:

Quote:
T4 Total
2 Serum 19 nmol/L Range reference (15-53)
TSH
2 Serum 0.26 ng/ml. Range reference (0.01-0.50)
The total T4 doesn't tell you much, since, depending on the dog, it may not correlate well with the free T4. To be honest, my pet peeve is when vets makes any thyroid decisions based on the TSH, since it can be wrong in up to 30% of dog cases. It doesn't work in dogs the same way that it works in humans. On page 2 here it talks about the cTSH: http://www.antechdiagnostics.com/Res...nsightsJan2011 I don't understand why vets, even those at universities, don't pay attention to this, it's very important. In fact, when my vet told me awhile back that UC Davis was teaching their vets to go by the TSH, I made it a point to find a vet for Jazz that was not a new UCD grad (also for other reasons).

I test through Dodds. I don't always take their recommendations, but I like the ranges they used (based on size and age of dog).

Hazel, you do have quite a pack!
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