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Old February 20th, 2005, 11:00 AM
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k9 cops, those magnificent beasts

K9 dogs, those intriguing creatures that, sniff out bombs, drugs, locate children, protect and serve, and so much more, have always amazed me. How do they do it?

It was suggested that, Rescue dogs could be used as K9 cops, is there truth to this? Many dogs that end up in rescues/shelters have suffered a trauma of some sorts, whether it be beatings, isolation, or just simple rejection of their owner, they have suffered a traumatic experience. Traumatic experiences can lead to severe psychological issues in a dog. Much like humans who can suffer 'trauma related amnesia', dogs too, can suffer the very same affliction. I've heard repeatedly that, dogs have no memory, I disagree with this to some extent. Dogs remember through instinct, they do have memory, it just manifests itself in the animals 'instinct for survival'. A dog that is severely beaten will, most likely, end up 'hand shy'. These dogs can be retrained, but their underlying psychological afflictions will remain, even if it's in the 'back of it's mind', rendering the dog a 'smoking gun'.

What makes a good K9/protection dogs? What temperament do they require? What age does training begin? Does training a dog for protection make some of these larger breed dogs more stable? These are just a few questions I would like to discuss.

Dar.
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Old February 20th, 2005, 11:20 AM
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Certainly they can

These dogs can be retrained, but their underlying psychological afflictions will remain, even if it's in the 'back of it's mind', rendering the dog a 'smoking gun'.
Yes but sometimes the most abused dogs are suited well for other tasks (although not attack work - imagine the lawsuits). That DOES include pit bulls. A dog that our government wants to ban instead of the behavior of those that abuse these dogs.

Popsicle:
During an arrest two years ago, Buffalo policeman Ron Clark, Jr. opened an abandoned freezer on a known drug dealer's back porch and found a bulging black garbage bag. "I poked my flashlight at it," he recalls, "and it started moving. My worst fear was that it was a baby."
In fact, it was a puppy, a pit bull who would be known as Popsicle and -- in a lovely ironic twist-- would gain fame for sniffing out the kind of bad guy that nearly killed him.

http://www.pitbullsontheweb.com/petb.../popsicle.html

Dakota:
A top rated Search and Rescue dog saved from dog fighters.


More Here:
http://www.understand-a-bull.com/Her...oicPitties.htm

Memory: Gorilla's do. Coco remembers her parents murder and her capture and can tell the story. I caught Animal Planet when I was in the states last week and this was an amazing tale of a Gorilla taught to speak using hand singles. How she puts those signals together makes it a language.
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Old February 20th, 2005, 11:43 AM
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Well my brother has been a K9 cop for 24 years now.And this is something I do know about.And being on the force I deal with the K9 Unit.

Their training starts at 18 months.My GSD Tron is a retired Police Dog.He was my brothers partner..I started his basic training when I got him at 12 weeks.His commands where taught in German.Thank got my mom lived in Germany for 10 years.She helped with the words. ..I had to get Tron used to everyone and everything.And all sorts of noises.That included fireworks,and loud noises.Once he turned 18 months,my brother took him.Yes it was hard.But I still got to see him.I still had my other GSD Yukon.

Then he started SchH.There are 3 parts to this.Obedience,Tracking and Protection.The must pass each stage.The final stage to get SchH III is the protection.

These dogs come from reputable breeders.These breeders dogs are titled with SchH III.Both sire and dam have been health and genetic tested,and x-rayed.And temperment tested.The pups are handled alot.Sire is usually imported from Europe.

These dogs must NOT show any aggression what so ever.They are trained not to attack,but to "hold"

Here are a few pics of my babies.I lost my Yukon in Sept.

Tron is the one sitting.

Forgot to mention...SchH I starts at 18 months,SchH II 19 months and SchH III 20 months.
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Old February 20th, 2005, 11:47 AM
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here is another one.
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Old February 20th, 2005, 11:54 AM
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Sorry to hear about Yukon, they are nice looking Sheps. Mona, Thank you for the info, These dogs are incredible. I've read up on some differences between the French ring and Schutzhund, which do you believe to be the better training? Could my Doberman go through a similar training?

Twodogs and the cat,

That is the coolest story I've ever read on animals. Thanks for the read.


Dar.
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Old February 20th, 2005, 12:04 PM
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Thank you..I do still miss him. :sad:

I have also done research on the both.To be honest,I still like the SchH.There is alot more to the French Ring.

Could your Dobe do it?Sure.But you need to remember that he has to pass the Obedience.How old is he/she?How are the basic commands?Sit,stay,down,heel,leave it and so on.How old is your Dobe?

I never did obedience with any of my dogs.I did all the training.
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Old February 20th, 2005, 12:05 PM
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Different forces different attitudes

I understand that but it is still true that rescued dogs that have shown the required drive have exceeded when given the oppotunity and are working today in law enforcement.

Many forces do it exactly as you say they do while others with more cash available such as the RCMP run thier own breeding program (and sell off those not suited). Others buy them, our regional police have trained dogs for other forces (Shepherd of course). Still the question was can rescued dogs perform these tasks and the answer is yes. They can be used for some of the roles although I have yet to hear of one that has trained as an attack dog probably due to the reasons you have stated - temperment. Many rescue dogs performing these tasks may not work closely with the public and a proven temperment may not be as necessary as in cases when the dog is working off leash.

For scent work many dogs have been shown to out perform the GSD but I'm sure that the GSD will remian the dog of choice when a dog is 'raised' for the role. Also it is the ideal all around utility dog. As a breed they can't be beat but there may be an 'under dog' that will put them to shame in a particular role just as there is always a faster gun. This is why beagles and pits are used to sniff out drugs - they exceeded when given the chance and they performed better than other candidates. It happens. Do I expect to see cop cars outside the shelters now - no. Somebody took a chance and they won but I'm sure there are also a lot of failures.

Now if you need a dog to track cookies - I've got a pointer you should see.
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Old February 20th, 2005, 12:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mona_b
Thank you..I do still miss him. :sad:

I have also done research on the both.To be honest,I still like the SchH.There is alot more to the French Ring.

Could your Dobe do it?Sure.But you need to remember that he has to pass the Obedience.How old is he/she?How are the basic commands?Sit,stay,down,heel,leave it and so on.How old is your Dobe?

I never did obedience with any of my dogs.I did all the training.
*sigh* He's only 3 weeks old, we haven't gotten him yet. I will get back to you on this though.
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Old February 20th, 2005, 12:20 PM
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Awwwwwwww 3 weeks old.Bet you can't wait to get him home?

Please do get back to me..
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Old February 20th, 2005, 01:51 PM
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You're right.It happens all over the world.Temperament is not an issue with many forces,they will turn down dogs that are not "aggressive" enough.Many K9s the public are not able to approach.The dogs are on duty,and not supposed to be approached.These are working dogs not lap dogs.Smaller and cash strapped forces will train their own,get a rescue or shelter dog,or get from a local breeder.Serious established k9 units get them from New York,they are imported from the Czech Republic.

Sheps have not cornered the market as you said,I have a rescue update on some rescued Pits, Labs and Beagles that have been trained and worked in many, many areas across the US.Warms your heart to think of what rescues can do,when someone has a little faith and wants to help dogs in need.
Quote:
Originally Posted by twodogsandacat
Others buy them, our regional police have trained dogs for other forces (Shepherd of course). Still the question was can rescued dogs perform these tasks and the answer is yes. They can be used for some of the roles although I have yet to hear of one that has trained as an attack dog probably due to the reasons you have stated - temperment. Many rescue dogs performing these tasks may not work closely with the public and a proven temperment may not be as necessary as in cases when the dog is working off leash.
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Old February 20th, 2005, 02:38 PM
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[QUOTE=LL1]Temperament is not an issue with many forces,they will turn down dogs that are not "aggressive" enough.
QUOTE]

And who told you that?????

They do not look for aggressive dogs at all.And yes temperment plays a key role in these dogs.They do not want an aggressive dog.And I know of a few who didn't make it because they were to aggressive.

No they are not allowed to mingle with the public.BUT,they do have them coming into the schools,have public awareness in the comunities.Then,yes they do mingle.These are family dogs.They go home with the handlers and be part of the family.And they are great with kids.

I know of an amazing breeder who has supplied the K9 Unit in 21 cities in Ontario with their dogs.Some include Barrie,Toronto,Waterloo,Durham,Peel,Cobourg,York Region,Midland,Halton.These are just a few.I can go on.
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Old February 20th, 2005, 03:35 PM
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Not always

I'd have to agree that in Canada and the USA today that would most likely be the case but not always and hopefully not ever in Canada. In fact many of these dogs do actually visit local schools (yes there has been the odd incident - I have to admit I watch RealTV once in a while) and are extremely 'stable'. They know when they are working.

Still police forces across time and borders have sought out aggressive dogs. they were used on African Americans in Birmingham. South Africa used agressive dogs during Apartheid and in fact some police were finally charged with using innocent blacks to train the dogs to attack.


Also police dogs have both attacked police and have been shot by mistake by police.

The real issue is that once again it is the mentality on the other end of the leash that counts most.

Don't discount this first page due to it's title:Repression and Police Dog Abuse
http://www.geocities.com/ericsquire/articles/dogs.htm
http://www.geocities.com/ericsquire/...s/dogshist.htm

Last edited by twodogsandacat; February 20th, 2005 at 04:00 PM. Reason: a term really offended me even if it was 'correct at the time'
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Old February 20th, 2005, 03:44 PM
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I have to agree with Mona, Prior to Mona's assistance I purchased a book on Dobes and training, they specifically mention in the book that the Dobes temperament should not be aggressive and he should be well socialized to every little thing possible, including Humans of all ilks. It also mentioned that if the dog is aggressive or overly dominant he should not be trained for protection.


Dar.(looking for elucidation)
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Old February 20th, 2005, 04:18 PM
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Heroes everyone

I would like to say that all dogs used in all the services are heroes in my eyes. They do what they are asked to do without question. There is no right or wrong in the dogs eyes, that judgment will always fall upon the person at the other end of the leash.

I once got lost on a web search and discovered a site on 'war dogs'. In Vietnam these dogs were left behind at the end of the war. An unbefitting end. They were so effective at saving lives that the bounty on a US service dog was far higher than that on a uniformed soldier.

There were objections to a memorial at the mall in Washington as the bodies of men lay there and some find that disrespectful. In the eyes of those who served with them that is where they truly belong. Still there are plans for a national monument.

Will dogs be left behind again or just thrown out to pasture? No, Bill Clinton finally signed a piece of legislation allowing qualified service persons to adopt them at the end of their work life.

Sorry to take it off topic but these dogs do deserve our admiration.

BTW: I do not understand however how so much time and money can be spent on a dog and a vest to protect it has to be donated by some child's fundraising effort. This was the recent case in a Canadian city.
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Old February 20th, 2005, 04:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigDogLover
if the dog is aggressive or overly dominant he should not be trained for protection.
This is so very true.This would be like having a loaded gun.And is not good.And this also goes for the GSD.The K9 dogs are not trained to kill or mame.They are trained to "hold".Once they go after a person,they either knock them down,or grab a hold of the arm or leg,then to hold.There were many times when Tron could have ripped someone apart,but did he?No casue that was not what he was trained to do.Also,when he retired and I took him,I never ever had a problem with him.He was great with people and kids.This is why I have said before that these dogs are not just working dogs,they are part of the family.

When these dogs are going through training as pups,the main thing that is done is that they needed to be socialized big time.I will still put Tron through a little routine.You know,good guy bad guy....

My brother has another "partner"...His name is Dante.He is also a GSD.We would go to see him and I would bring Yukon and Tron.He is the sweetest dog.But that's one thing about these dogs.Play is play,but work is work.And they know the difference.
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Old February 20th, 2005, 04:46 PM
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[QUOTE=twodogsandacat]Will dogs be left behind again or just thrown out to pasture? No, Bill Clinton finally signed a piece of legislation allowing qualified service persons to adopt them at the end of their work life.QUOTE]

Actually,the majority of these dogs actually do stay with the handlers.

With me,I actually told my brother once Tron retires,if it's possible I would like him back.He had no problems with that.Plus he knew Tron would rather spend the rest of his living years with his cuz Yukon.I just didn't expect Yukon to leave us so soon.
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Old February 20th, 2005, 04:51 PM
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[QUOTE=mona_b]
Quote:
Originally Posted by twodogsandacat
Will dogs be left behind again or just thrown out to pasture? No, Bill Clinton finally signed a piece of legislation allowing qualified service persons to adopt them at the end of their work life.QUOTE]

Actually,the majority of these dogs actually do stay with the handlers.
Sorry I was talking about the bill which Clinton signed regarding military dogs not police dogs. I believe that is pretty much a standard practice regarding police dogs and that's the way it should be. Sorry to hear about your loss.
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Old February 20th, 2005, 04:52 PM
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You're wrong.I have met many k9s and have helped shelters with the criteria for what police will take.One was just turned down for being too young and not aggressive enough,the shelter had called them as they felt he was too aggressive for adoption.Which breeder is that that you refer to?
[QUOTE=mona_b]
Quote:
Originally Posted by LL1
Temperament is not an issue with many forces,they will turn down dogs that are not "aggressive" enough.
QUOTE]

And who told you that?????

They do not look for aggressive dogs at all.And yes temperment plays a key role in these dogs.They do not want an aggressive dog.And I know of a few who didn't make it because they were to aggressive.

I know of an amazing breeder who has supplied the K9 Unit in 21 cities in Ontario with their dogs.Some include Barrie,Toronto,Waterloo,Durham,Peel,Cobourg,York Region,Midland,Halton.These are just a few.I can go on.
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Old February 20th, 2005, 05:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LL1
You're wrong.

I am FAR from being wrong.And you can argue with me all you want about this.This is something I know for a fact.

Like HELLO,my brother is a K9 officer.So I guess he's wrong also???????

Ummm sorry,unless I get permission from this breeder,I cannot give out the name.
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Old February 20th, 2005, 05:01 PM
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http://www.leerburg.com/
http://www.caradobe.com/schdobe.html

Some reading on Protection/K9 dogs. These are professionals. I've spent my day reading about this, everyone says the same thing.

Dar.
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Old February 20th, 2005, 06:06 PM
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Funny that.I knew you would not say.You have no facts.Yes small forces as I said will use local breeders and some use rescue.What did you miss?Oh wait,are you goung to tell us about licensed breeders again with all your CKC experience?Wait,you were wrong then too weren't you.What facts do you know Mona?Do tell.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mona_b
I am FAR from being wrong.And you can argue with me all you want about this.This is something I know for a fact.

Like HELLO,my brother is a K9 officer.So I guess he's wrong also???????

Ummm sorry,unless I get permission from this breeder,I cannot give out the name.
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Old February 20th, 2005, 06:18 PM
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I have facts...And I don't have to prove Jack S^^T to you.

I am not going to give out info of a certain breeder unless I get the OK.

Just like you won't give out what rescue you are with????That's if you even are in rescue...

You like to stir up things on here don't you??????
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Old February 20th, 2005, 06:34 PM
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Mona,

I just pulled this off a site;

Basic canine characteristics such as SELF-CONFIDENCE, IRRITATION LEVEL, and NERVE COSTUME also are playing their part in the foundation of a good Schutzhund.

By this I take it that they are referring to a stable dog in temperament, wouldn't an aggressive dog lack confidence and have a high irritation level?

Dar.
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Old February 20th, 2005, 06:48 PM
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I don't know - I'm just asking

Confidence and agressiveness?

I believe both will allow a dog to bite but an aggressive dog may bite when you don't want it too and not bite when you do want it too. A confident dog isn't afraid to bite while an aggressive dog may bite becasue it is afraid. I also think the word 'Agressiveness' indicates 'free thinking' on the part of the dog.

Isn't this really similar to the difference between courage and stupidity (reckless abandon)?

Just asking?
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Old February 20th, 2005, 06:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigDogLover
By this I take it that they are referring to a stable dog in temperament, wouldn't an aggressive dog lack confidence and have a high irritation level?
Most definately...

When doing SchH,they will not accept an aggressive dog.The first part of
SchH is Obedience.If the dog fails that,it can not go on to SchH II.

Here are some of the facts LL1..

Special Thanks to some of our clients in Canada that have allowed us to provide them with their very own P.S.D.'s.



City of London Police Halton Regional Police Durham Regional Police Saint John, NB Police

Thunder Bay Police Peel Regional Police City of Toronto Police City of Barrie Police

Guelph Police Waterloo Regional Police South Simcoe Police York Regional Police

Quinte West Police Midland Police Halifax Regional Police Calgary Police

Chatham/Kent Police Cobourg Police R.C.M.P. O.P.P.

Also Thank you to the many Police Departments from the U.S.A. and to all of our other clients from North America that have supported us through the years, and have made us who we are today.
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Old February 20th, 2005, 06:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twodogsandacat
Isn't this really similar to the difference between courage and stupidity (reckless abandon)?

Just asking?
Hmmm! I think you're on to something. I'm not sure I'd say stupidity I'd go with 'apprehensive'.

Dar.
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Old February 20th, 2005, 07:17 PM
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I didn't ask to prove anything.Foul language means nothing to me.As I said,small forces use Ontario bred dogs or on occasion rescues.Established ones use Czech imports from a man in NY.You ust proved that.Thank you.I'm not stirring anything up.I post facts.For the dog who was too young and not aggressive enough for a K9,call Barrie SPCA it was their dog,an owner surrender.Call the Whitby K9 unit and ask them why they said no.I may have the names at my desk at work. You love the breed,get involved in rescue.We all could use your help.I am a big dog person and work closely with many of the large dog rescues when needed,Rotts,Bouvs,Gsds,Berners,Pits,you name it.We all help out and are involved when needed and know most of what goes on before a dog lands in rescue.That's just what we do.I like to be anonymous due to the nasty language and posts here,Lucky knows who I am and my rescue and what i do,as does Spurby.I don't need your approval.
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Old February 20th, 2005, 09:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LL1
As I said,small forces use Ontario bred dogs or on occasion rescues.Established ones use Czech imports from a man in NY.You ust proved that.Thank you.
Don't thank me.I didn't prove anything.She was thanking her clients in the States.THEY have her dogs.NOT the other way around.And I have also stated that these breeders,including mine,have their dams inported.And I mean right from Europe not from someone in NY.They come straight from Germany,the Czech and Denmark.
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Old February 20th, 2005, 09:47 PM
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Not stirring -

I hate to do this as you two seem pretty tied up in this but I have a Rhodesian mix and my brother who works for one of those Ontario police forces mentioned (for twenty years) has said my dog looks a lot like one of their dogs. This was two years ago.

Now he's not a dog guy but there is no way he'd confuse a Shepherd up with any tall reddish shorthaired mutt that resembles my dog (My sister also had a Shepherd which attained most of those certifications - so we know what a Shepherd looks like and a canine officer lives on the same street as he does). I don't know what role that dog filled but it may indicate that one of those mentioned forces isn't exclusive (or wasnít) and may occasionally source out local talent.

Isnít there room on this subject to disagree? How many forces are there and how many different jobs for dogs are there?
.
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Old February 20th, 2005, 09:57 PM
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twodogsandacat, I have also heard of both being used.
That the Toronto metro police use german imports, yet in my area (Durham) they use some local breeders as well as shelters.
there are so many regions, so chances are not all of them do the same thing.
so Mona b amd LL1 you both could be correct. (truce??)
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