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  #31  
Old March 3rd, 2006, 08:59 AM
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coppperbelle coppperbelle is offline
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Nature's variet

Quote:
Originally Posted by LL1
They have had problems before with false claims.The ads are usually full of faulty science and slamming other foods imo,I think the quality is poor as well.I would never use it.
I am still waiting to hear specifics of where you get your information on Solid Gold making false claims. I have done a search on the net and have found absolutely nothing negative about this company. I feed this food and if there is something wrong I want to know. As for the quality of the food what evidence do you have that the quality is poor?

Waiting anxiously for your reply.
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  #32  
Old March 3rd, 2006, 12:49 PM
LL1 LL1 is offline
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Menhaden fishmeal is not for human consumption.It also is highly combustible and preserved with ethoxyquin.It is a cheap garbage fish to add to food.There was an FOI request several years ago on solid gold showing that the meal was preserved with E.I also think lamb is a poor protein source and prefer not to use it.Not sure if the info on the FOI request is still on the net or not,it was several years ago when I first starting researching dog food, probably 1999?The owner of Solid Gold was also arrested at one point and sentenced to 179 days in prison and fined $10,000 for mislabeling "natural" dog food.

I read what you have posted about sunflower oil, that is not a worry for me personally.Read more about citric acid in food and bloat risks.That worries me. Suggestions for food would be foods without menhaden or lamb.

As for my choices?I prefer raw or home cooked.Next would be canned.Bottom of the list would be kibble.California Natural Chicken and Rice is a good food.If you are ok with multiple proteins,and a richer food (not for queasy tummies)the regular Innova is ok.I agree with Prin that I would not trust Evo.Canidae chicken and rice is ok,I would pick that over regular Canidae.Merricks is ok too,anyone can have a recall.

Last edited by LL1; March 3rd, 2006 at 12:54 PM.
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  #33  
Old March 3rd, 2006, 12:58 PM
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Hmmm.... Wolf king doesn't have menhaden fish meal nor citric acid, so I don't see what the issue is. Their other foods have the fish meal, but then they are cheaper too. You get what you pay for. I still haven't found anything wrong with Wolf king, other than it might be a little grainy. But I'm still looking.

Canned is just obscenely expensive to feed a large breed adult dog. We'd have to feed Boo something like 5 cans of Merrick a day- that's about $115/week plus tax. No way. I don't even spend that on myself. And I don't have the time, the freezer, the money or the routine to feed raw or even cooked.

I'm glad we agree on the Evo though... So far it's mostly anecdotal evidence out there, but when the stories turn to Evo, it tends to get scary (liver failure, kidney failure, etc).

Just so you can see what I'm talking about with the Wolf King:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf King ingredients
Bison | Salmon Meal | Brown Rice | Millet | Cracked Pearled Barley | Oatmeal | Rice Bran | Canola Oil | Flaxseed Oil | Garlic | Amaranth | Blueberries | Yucca Schidigera Extract | Carotene | Choline Chloride | Vitamin E Supplement | Iron Proteinate | Zinc Proteinate | Copper Proteinate | Manganese Proteinate | Potassium Iodide | Thiamine Mononitrate | Ascorbic Acid | Vitamin A Supplement | Biotin | Calcium Panthothenate | Selenomethionine | Pyridoxine Hydrochloride | Vitamin B12 Supplement | Riboflavin | Vitamin D Supplement | Folic Acid |
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  #34  
Old March 3rd, 2006, 01:07 PM
LL1 LL1 is offline
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Did someone mention Wolf king?I was talking solid gold generally.

We all decide what we want to feed our pets.I am not judging what you decide to do.Its not my place to do that.I was stating what I feel are the best choices,kibble would be the bottom of the barrel.Great to go for a higher quality kibble,obviously,but still the bottom of the choices.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prin
Hmmm.... Wolf king doesn't have menhaden fish meal nor citric acid, so I don't see what the issue is. Their other foods have the fish meal, but then they are cheaper too. You get what you pay for. I still haven't found anything wrong with Wolf king, other than it might be a little grainy. But I'm still looking.

Canned is just obscenely expensive to feed a large breed adult dog. We'd have to feed Boo something like 5 cans of Merrick a day- that's about $115/week plus tax. No way. I don't even spend that on myself. And I don't have the time, the freezer, the money or the routine to feed raw or even cooked.

I'm glad we agree on the Evo though... So far it's mostly anecdotal evidence out there, but when the stories turn to Evo, it tends to get scary (liver failure, kidney failure, etc).

Just so you can see what I'm talking about with the Wolf King:
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  #35  
Old March 3rd, 2006, 01:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LL1
Did someone mention Wolf king?I was talking solid gold generally.
Yes, but making general statements about Solid Gold when they don't apply to all the foods produced by Solid Gold is a bit misleading. I was just pointing out that not all the foods have lamb, nor menhaden fish meal and none have citric acid. A lot of people lurk here and try to learn about foods from this forum, so when I post something I try to be as clear as possible.

IMO, wolf king is one of the best foods out there, and I don't think people should be deterred from it by general statements that pertain to other foods.

It is VERY hard to find a food without one ingredient that is iffy. Some of the "natural" ones have beet pulp, or some other corner-cutting ingredient that we'd rather not see when we're paying $70/bag. For those of us who can't feed raw or cooked, this is what we have to do. We have to search and search and search until we find a food out of the very limited number of good ones that we are comfortable with. It's not just about opinions, you know? And there's so much misinformation and jumbly information out there, that it's nice to be clear.
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  #36  
Old March 3rd, 2006, 01:29 PM
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I apologize if I was not clear.Maybe this will make it more clear,definitely did not want people to misunderstand what I meant.

I would not trust any food made by Solid Gold for the reasons I posted before.

The citric acid worry I mentioned,was related to the fact that it is an ingredient in the food that was in the name of this topic,Nature's Variety,and in the ingredients posted.It is a concern with bloat.I can post more if anyone would like to see that?

I would not use foods with citric acid or menhaden fishmeal,regardless of who makes it.

Lamb I try and avoid in all foods.

I do realize not everyone wants to take the time or money to feed the best.And I agree high end kibble would be better than Old Roy and Purina Dog Chow and Iams etc so it is absolutely a good step in the right direction.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prin
Yes, but making general statements about Solid Gold when they don't apply to all the foods produced by Solid Gold is a bit misleading. I was just pointing out that not all the foods have lamb, nor menhaden fish meal and none have citric acid. A lot of people lurk here and try to learn about foods from this forum, so when I post something I try to be as clear as possible.

IMO, wolf king is one of the best foods out there, and I don't think people should be deterred from it by general statements that pertain to other foods.

It is VERY hard to find a food without one ingredient that is iffy. Some of the "natural" ones have beet pulp, or some other corner-cutting ingredient that we'd rather not see when we're paying $70/bag. For those of us who can't feed raw or cooked, this is what we have to do. We have to search and search and search until we find a food out of the very limited number of good ones that we are comfortable with. It's not just about opinions, you know? And there's so much misinformation and jumbly information out there, that it's nice to be clear.
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  #37  
Old March 3rd, 2006, 01:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LL1
I do realize not everyone wants to take the time or money to feed the best.And I agree high end kibble would be better than Old Roy and Purina Dog Chow and Iams etc so it is absolutely a good step in the right direction.
It's not about wanting to or not- at least not at this level. Switching from Iams to a better food is about wanting, IMO. The price difference is made up by fewer vet visits and feeding less.

Some people think feeding high end kibble is expensive, and I do it on a student loan budget- I doubt there are very many students who feed a $70/bag food, but I see it as a priority and I see the benefits. But raw, or canned, I simply could not afford any way I do the math. I know I don't control what goes in the kibble, but at a certain point, you just have to do the best you can with what you have, regardless of what you want to do.
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  #38  
Old March 3rd, 2006, 02:35 PM
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i think it's too bad that the general myth floating around is that "raw is too expensive / time consuming to feed". IF you take the time to acquaint yourself with the basic principles of raw feeding and source out your suppliers, it's actually cheaper than feeding high-end kibble. of course the initial investment of time is to consider, but so what? it's spending a few hours setting things up and voila. how much time is spent watching tv and staring at the crappy weather outside anyways? LOL

find source for cheap meat/ bones/ organs, buy in bulk, store in freezer, every night before bed take out the next day's food, let thaw in sink overnight, and for mealtimes just hand food to the dog. OK it's a tad more time-consuming than opening a bag of kibble and pouring into a bowl, but what the heck, our dogs are worth it right?

the operative is: dogs should eat 2-3% of their body weight of raw food per day (on average: some eat less, very few eat more). if you do your homework and find meat for $1 or less per pound, that is $2-3 per day MAX for a 100 lbs dog. Easy to stock up on sales and your costs go down to $1.5-2 MAX per day. So $60/mth for a 100 lbs dog for the maximum bioavailability food is a bargain, IMO. factor in the lower vet bills, smaller poops, less toys destroyed (they chew on their food, not toys), less need for supplements, etc...

there is NO reason and NO excuses not to feed raw, ANYBODY can do it. however if you CHOOSE to not feed raw, that's fine!! everybody has choices to make and be respected for it. buuuuut... we really need to dispell this myth that raw feeding is expensive and time-consuming, because it really isn't....
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  #39  
Old March 3rd, 2006, 04:25 PM
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See $60/month for Boo + $40/month for Jemma = $100/month. I pay $70 right now. When you consider that I get an average of $10 000 a year, spending $1200 vs $840 is very significant. So, no, raw is not affordable for me. That extra $360 buys me 10 months of telephone instead. My dogs already go to the vet significantly less than before, and already have small stools.
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  #40  
Old March 3rd, 2006, 04:32 PM
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well that's good then if they only eat one bag per month at $70 tax in. you don't give them anything else, just dry food? no canned fish, yogurt, cottage cheese, canned dog food, treats? cuz you have to factor all that in their food budget too, IF they get it. those supplements are factored in the raw diet $ allowance per day. although to be honest, i'm lazy and often buy waaay more expensive meat than #1/pound! maybe that's why i rarely eat meat myself... can't afford it, ha ha!
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  #41  
Old March 3rd, 2006, 04:35 PM
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I don't give them enough other stuff to significantly increase the amount... I mean I go through $15 in treats in over 3 months, and maybe 4 or 5 cans a year... Not much higher than $70/month.
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  #42  
Old March 3rd, 2006, 04:37 PM
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i really admire the way you can stick to a budget like that. i can't follow one to save my life!! sometimes feel so overwhelmed... i can't to go a petshop without wanting to buy everything in sight!
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  #43  
Old March 3rd, 2006, 04:38 PM
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LOL Did I mention how much money I have in a year? If I don't stick to my budget, I'm sunk. Every penny has its place...
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  #44  
Old March 3rd, 2006, 04:45 PM
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someday when you're rich and famous you'll look back on these days and grin fondly while sipping a cold margharita by the beach!
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  #45  
Old March 3rd, 2006, 05:42 PM
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lol do you think they have hot chocolate on the beach?
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  #46  
Old March 3rd, 2006, 05:49 PM
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YOu have not given me any evidence that the company (Solid Gold) gives or has given misleading informaton. I can't find anything on the net so the only word I have is yours. I have found many sites that recommend Solid Gold. The Whole Dog Journal also recommends it as a quality kibble. Blanket statements such as you made about Solid Gold should not be made unless you can prove what you stated.


There are a number of reasons why I don't feed raw and cost is not one of them. I am not convinced that this is the best method of feeding. Many of you may be but I am not. I won't debate the topic with you. I have done the reading and it is not what I want for my dog. I may one day feed cooked food to my pets but never will I feed raw.

My dogs eat kibble and are extremely healthy as are your pets that eat raw. That is afterall what we are striving for, isn't it?
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  #47  
Old March 3rd, 2006, 06:04 PM
LL1 LL1 is offline
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It actually doesnt matter if you believe me or not.I just put the information out there,and I really hope people would do more research into what they feed their companions.That is what is important to me.

Did you do a search?The info is readily available on Sissy being charged.

The info on the FOI request would be harder to find,but was all through the dog world several years back.I will try and find it.

Here are two parts, from the FDA's website:
http://www.fda.gov/bbs/topics/ANSWERS/ANS00064.html

"The court agreed with FDA that Solid Gold Health Products had defrauded
customers of hundreds of thousands of dollars a year, and continued to put
animal lives at risk, deterred consumers from obtaining effective veterinary
drugs and endangered animal handlers and pet owners by exposing them to
disease."


"Sissy Harrington-McGill, president and sole owner of Solid Gold Health
Products for Pets Inc., El Cajon, Calif., was found guilty of the charge on
July 12 after a three day trial. Her corporation, also known as the Solid
Gold Holistic Animal-Equine Nutrition Center, was fined $10,000 and placed
on five years probation -- meaning that its operations will be scrutinized
by the court for this period.
Chief Judge Gordon Thompson, Jr., of the California Federal District
Court in San Diego, ordered Harrington-McGill taken into custody
immediately. He said at no time did she acknowledge any guilt and was
"totally unrepentant."



Quote:
Originally Posted by coppperbelle
YOu have not given me any evidence that the company (Solid Gold) gives or has given misleading informaton. I can't find anything on the net so the only word I have is yours. I have found many sites that recommend Solid Gold. The Whole Dog Journal also recommends it as a quality kibble. Blanket statements such as you made about Solid Gold should not be made unless you can prove what you stated.


There are a number of reasons why I don't feed raw and cost is not one of them. I am not convinced that this is the best method of feeding. Many of you may be but I am not. I won't debate the topic with you. I have done the reading and it is not what I want for my dog. I may one day feed cooked food to my pets but never will I feed raw.

My dogs eat kibble and are extremely healthy as are your pets that eat raw. That is afterall what we are striving for, isn't it?

Last edited by LL1; March 3rd, 2006 at 06:09 PM.
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  #48  
Old March 3rd, 2006, 07:46 PM
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Natures Variet

They have had problems before with false claims.The ads are usually full of faulty science and slamming other foods imo,I think the quality is poor as well.I would never use it.

This is your comment from a previous thread. I wanted you to clarify what you were saying about the company.

You asked me if I did a search. The insinuation was rude by the way!

In answer to your question, yes I did a search on Solid Gold dog food. That is afterall what we were discussing. The article you brought up is about drugs that the company was once selling 16 years ago. You omitted to quote that part of the article by the way. It has nothing to do with dog food so I would never have found anything. The so called drugs were herbal remedies from what I gather.

I don't see anything about faulty science or slamming of other foods in your article. Where is that information?

As for researching what we are feeding our dogs, I have. I read everything I can find about dog nutrition. That is why I settled on Solid Gold, Wolf King.
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  #49  
Old March 3rd, 2006, 08:08 PM
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Sorry but I just have to put my 2 cents here,Solid Gold is (for me) a very expensive and high quality food and I only heard good things about it.I think it's a little bit excessive to badmouth those type of food.I mean,come on,it's not pedigree!I won't even tell you guys what I feed my dogs now because I'm sure I would get 'trashed'.But we do have to go with our budget.It's not because we don't feed raw or drive 2 hours to get a certain type of food that we don't love our dogs.And I don't believe that I have more problem with my dogs health than others.Like I said in another post,I had foster dogs that were on Pedigree and Alpo for all their lives,I'm talking about 6-8 yr old dogs,the owners never had to go to the vet for health problem.And no,before you ask me,I'm not feeding that to my dogs.
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  #50  
Old March 3rd, 2006, 09:33 PM
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Basically that link LL1 posted said that in 1988 Solid Gold put out unproven herbal remedies they claimed cured or prevented certain diseases and illnesses. Well. What else is new? How many herbal remedy companies do extensive testing? How many claim to have miraculous healing powers? Are herbal remedies sometimes taken as replacements for some proven, tested drugs to the detriment of the user?

Substitute "Solid Gold" for any herbal remedy manufacturer's name, and the story is the same.

Frenchy, it all comes down to feeding what you are comfortable with. There are many things to consider in deciding on a food.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coppperbelle
As for researching what we are feeding our dogs, I have. I read everything I can find about dog nutrition. That is why I settled on Solid Gold, Wolf King.
Me too. Hopefully I won't find out anything bad about any of the ingredients, but we'll see. Like I was telling my man earlier today, even if raw is better, my dogs are so healthy and nobody can dispute that. They're fit, shiny, soft, with clean teeth, healthy skin, high energy, etc etc. Why mess with a great thing?
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  #51  
Old March 3rd, 2006, 10:52 PM
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Like I was telling my man earlier today, even if raw is better, my dogs are so healthy and nobody can dispute that. They're fit, shiny, soft, with clean teeth, healthy skin, high energy, etc etc. Why mess with a great thing?
it is NOT a "great thing". kibble is not a NATURAL diet, prin. our dogs and cats are the only animals on the planet that are force-fed these artificial, chemically processed cereal pellets that have a 12-month shelf life. look at their teeth, their digestive sytems and their basic instinct. they are hunters meant to hunt, kill, and tear apart prey in big chunks - not snack on a bowl of dry cereal pumped with artificial vitamins in order for their coats to be nice & shiny (why do you think 3/4 of your kibble's ingredients are vitamins & minerals & additions? if cooking a food to death is such a great thing, why do you need to add all this stuff?)

not debating anyone on their choice of what to feed their pet, one of MY OWN dogs eats kibble - i am just pointing out the fallacy of thinking commercial diets are a "great thing". they are only great for the manufacturers & distributors who are making millions producing and selling this stuff, and for the pet owners too complacent with "this is ok why change it" to challenge why a natural diet is better for their pets in the first place.

having said this, we are a society of convenience, fast-food and quick solutions strapped by financial obligations that force us to make choices in life, one of which is what to feed ourselves, our children, and our pets. WE have the choice to eat McDonald's every day or have fresh healthy foods. our pets DO NOT have this choice. why do dogs look longingly at our dinner plates and drool, beg for treats, raid garbage cans? it's not hard to figure out. they are starved for real food and variety. if i had to eat the same dry processed pellets 3 times a day for the rest of my life, i'd kill myself!

i hope to have given food for thought (no pun intended!) to some of you reading this. if you choose not to feed raw or to home-cook, do try to add fresh, whole foods to your pet's diet as often as you can, they deserve at least that act of kindness. and if you can't afford to feed your pet adequately (all you purina and ol'roy proponists!), do the poor animal a favor and hand it over to someone who can.

end of rant
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  #52  
Old March 3rd, 2006, 10:55 PM
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WOW....I really hope all this bickering is over. You guys are not helping those of us that are trying to decide what dog food to use.
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  #53  
Old March 3rd, 2006, 11:00 PM
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I apologize if you think my post was rude.

You said

Quote:
Originally Posted by coppperbelle
I am still waiting to hear specifics of where you get your information on Solid Gold making false claims

YOu have not given me any evidence that the company (Solid Gold) gives or has given misleading informaton. I can't find anything on the net so the only word I have is yours.
I posted evidence from the FDA and the court that stated Solid Gold defrauded people and placed animals at risk.

I have also posted about menhaden fishmeal which they use in several of their products.

And citric acid which they do not use,but that does not seem to be at issue with you.

If you do some research,you will see a couple other companies that used to use menhaden,and do not any more.Coincidence?I doubt it.Before you ask,some formulas of Canidae and Wellness come to mind,you can check that yourself.I think that is due to public outcry.That is MY opinion,take from it what you wish.Google menhaden fishmeal alone,and with ethoxyquin,and with hazard and explosion.

As for lamb,I can suggest some books to read,always good to do research from source outside the net.If you are interested,please post back and let me know.

That article on the FDA site about Solid Gold comes up as the 5th item on google when you type in Solid Gold and Sissy (the owner of Solid Gold) which is why I said it is easily found.

I posted, and clearly stated it was part of the article.I also posted the link so you could read all of it.Nothing hidden in my posts.

There is other evidence,back when I first started to research food,in about 1999.If I have time I will look for it.

You obviously are sensitive as you chose to use their products.That is your choice.I cant stop you.I have my opinions based on almost 7 years of researching canine diets.We do not have to agree and no need to get hostile with each other.Peace.

(No bickering here rainbow.I am offering info for those who want to make informed choices.You will get no fights from me.Technodoll I agree,kibble is not a great thing,it is the worst of all food choices obviously,but if one nsists on it,a higher quality one is better,which I tried to say earlier.


Quote:
Originally Posted by coppperbelle
They have had problems before with false claims.The ads are usually full of faulty science and slamming other foods imo,I think the quality is poor as well.I would never use it.

This is your comment from a previous thread. I wanted you to clarify what you were saying about the company.

You asked me if I did a search. The insinuation was rude by the way!

In answer to your question, yes I did a search on Solid Gold dog food. That is afterall what we were discussing. The article you brought up is about drugs that the company was once selling 16 years ago. You omitted to quote that part of the article by the way. It has nothing to do with dog food so I would never have found anything. The so called drugs were herbal remedies from what I gather.

I don't see anything about faulty science or slamming of other foods in your article. Where is that information?

As for researching what we are feeding our dogs, I have. I read everything I can find about dog nutrition. That is why I settled on Solid Gold, Wolf King.
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  #54  
Old March 3rd, 2006, 11:09 PM
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Quote:
WOW....I really hope all this bickering is over. You guys are not helping those of us that are trying to decide what dog food to use.
it's not bickering, it's an intelligent and interesting exchange of ideas on a very personal & heated topic. if you don't know which food to feed your dog, rest assured that if you set foot in a holistic petshop ALL their foods are pretty much the same standard and it will not make a heck of a lot of difference which one you feed. just don't buy anything from the grocery store, pharmacies, home renovation stores and walmart (you get the idea).
good luck!
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  #55  
Old March 3rd, 2006, 11:57 PM
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Perhaps not....but Sadies Mom started this thread asking for advice and I think we got a tad bit off topic and one of us should have started a new thread. :sad:
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  #56  
Old March 4th, 2006, 01:02 AM
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Solid Gold uses xylitol in their Dragon's teeth and dragonette treats- and xylitol is toxic to dogs.

Solid gold uses scare tactic marketing which I cannot respect.

All Solid Gold food has barley in it- a gluten containing grain. If your dog is sensitive, has allergies, etc, it's not a good choice.

Solid Gold is very grain-heavy and their attempt at a grain-free food is a marketing gimmick just like all the others- I dislike it for many reasons.

Use of dairy products in a dog food doesn't thrill me either- notorious for being hard to digest and allergy culprit (in people, too, by the way)

I could probably go on, but I'd be rambling. I don't think Solid Gold is good food either.
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  #57  
Old March 4th, 2006, 09:38 AM
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les les is offline
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LL1 - I'm interested in the books about lamb. I just switched mine to a lamb food from chicken and haven't seen/read anything negative about lamb, other then chicken may be easier to digest.

Thanks
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  #58  
Old March 4th, 2006, 10:28 AM
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les les is offline
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One more thing because I can't get over it ....

Quote:
Originally Posted by technodoll
and if you can't afford to feed your pet adequately (all you purina and ol'roy proponists!), do the poor animal a favor and hand it over to someone who can.
What kind of thing to say is that? So I suppose you'll be handing over YOUR dog that you feed kibble to then right?? Because maybe I say it's not good enough.

Frankly, I don't get offended over the internet but if anything was ever rude in this post, that's it. Who made you so superior?

If someone takes good care of their pet and feeds it purina ... so what.

Personally, the whole reason I started questioning "high" quality food is I met a lady with 2 of the best looking labs I've ever seen. I thought they were puppies and when I asked her how old they were - she said 7 and 10!

She feeds them Purina One!!

I suppose I should tell her to give them away right, because she isn't feeding her pets adequately?? Never mind that she takes great care of them and they get lots of exercise and are healthy - she MUST be wrong and YOU must be right.

It's great that you're happy with raw, I just think you shouldn't be so rude to people who don't feed that way or to people who can't afford better then purina or who maybe LIKE purina.

Last edited by les; March 4th, 2006 at 12:40 PM.
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  #59  
Old March 4th, 2006, 11:04 AM
LL1 LL1 is offline
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Hi Les.Ann Martin discusses lamb in her book
Protect Your Pet: More Shocking Facts By Ann N. Martin and I will have to check my scanned in files in my old computer,I think she discusses it in her first book as wellFood Pets Die For: Shocking Facts About Pet Food By Ann N. Martin.Lamb is also discussed by Dr. Alfred Plechner,who way back when was the guy that created the novel protein formula for Nature's Recipe to help dogs with allergies to certainproteins. http://www.drplechner.com/about.html

His book Pets at Risk - From Allergies to Cancer, Remedies for an Unsuspected Epidemic Dr. Alfred J. Plechner DVM explores several issues with allergies and his HIT iist of what he calls high in trouble foods and most frequent cause of allergies.Every dog is different of course,and back then lamb was a novel protein and helped but now it is not really the same,and as you noted is also harder to digest.
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  #60  
Old March 4th, 2006, 11:52 AM
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Frenchy Frenchy is offline
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I wasn't bickering either.And I like what Les just wrote,If people take care of their dogs,exercise and no junk food,it's good enough for me.If I would believe everything that I read here,no kibble is good and that's it.Some of you always find something bad like,that's not a good ingredient and so on.Yes, I think it's good to give info to people but keep an open mind.There is the 2006 dog journal list that I think has great brands.Lot's of choice.
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