#1
|
||||
|
||||
Where do I start ??
Hello Forum Members!
After reading many many threads on problems and various dog foods I am convinced I need to not trust my vet any longer with regards to dog food knowledge!!! Here is a bit of history... My Chocolate Lab from puppyhood until now (he is 7)...has had skin problems...he will scratch...has dry skin..and would get round patches that almost looked like an over sized chicken pox...We started the painstaking trials of removing each type of meat from his meals...We tried chicken, then beef etc etc..It did not go away until I put him on vet food..It is Hills Hypoallergenic.(duck and potato)...This worked well for awhile..but then I lost my belief it was the food when I saw the spots return occasionally..However I kept him on it because the vet said it was good food for him.and he liked it ....About 3 months ago he went through a serious bout of diarrea...We checked for parasites, thyroid test, and a complete set of blood work..everything came back normal. Once again the vet reccomended a food change to Hills Canine Gastro Formula......My dog seems to have adjusted okay to it except that his stools are huge now! he poops more frequently...and his tummy is really loud some days! I can hear it sqeeking and gurgling sometimes..(and he is not hungry when it sounds like this!). The vet seemed to think the gastro will work because my dog also appears to be very sensitive to food changes or anything out of the ordinary... I can feed him vegetables and fruit and no problem but if I gave him a tiny little piece of meat from the table he would have diarrea!! he seems very sensitive to any form of table scraps.. So any advise on where to start would be helpful! Here is the info from the side of his bag of dog food! Please keep in mind I have no idea what should be in the food and what should not be! Category Ingrediants Protein: high quality, easily digestible Lamb, potato, egg Fat Reduced Fat Omega 3 fatty acids Flax, fish oil Omega 6 fatty acids Chicken, primrose oil Carbohydrates Highly digestible mixed grains Corn, rice Fibre Low Fibre optimal soluable-insoluable fibre ratio Pea Fibre Special Ingrediants Digestive aids, gut health Fructo-Oligosaccharides Lecithin, citrus acid Digestive Enzyme Bacillus Subtillis Dried Fermentation Extract Amino acid, gut health L-Glutamine Antioxidents Beta Carotene, vitamin E, Absorbic acid, organic Selenium Fat metabolism L-Carnitine Chelated minerals Iron Bioplex, copper bioplex, Zinc Bioplex List of Ingrediants Corn, brewers rice, lamb meal, potato protein, dried whole egg, chicken fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols, rosemary extract, citric acid and lecithin) flax meal, minerals (potassium cholride, monosodium phosphate, sodium chloride, ferrous sulfate, iron bioplex, zinc oxide, zinc bioplex, copper sulfate, copper bioplex, managanous oxide, calcium iodate, cobalt chloride and organix selenium) fish oil, pea fibre, vitamins (choline chloride, vitamin e, bitamin a, d-calcium pantothenate, inositol, niacin, ribflavin, thiamine mononitrate, pyridoxine hydrochloride, beta carotene, abscorbic acid, vitamin d3, folic acid, biotin, menadione sodium bisulfate complex and b12) Fructo-Oligosaccharides, Bacillus Subtilis Dried Fermentation Extract, Primrose oil, L-Carnitine and L-Glutamine. Guarnteed analysis Crude Protein min 20.0% Ash max 7.0% Crude Fat min 8.0% Calcium min 1.0% Crude Fibre max 3.0$ Phospherus min 0.8% Moisture max 10.00% Sorry for the length of this post! Cindy |
#2
|
||||
|
||||
this is a very low quality food...
First off the food you feed him shouldn't contain any CORN whatsoever since dogs don't digest corn...it jsut goes through like almost any veggies since dogs are carnivore... If you want a lamb based meal try CANIDAE lamb and rice...it is a hich quality kibble and don't ever trust a vet that sells the food he carries in his office..
__________________
Spay and Neuter "Ever consider what they must think of us I mean, here we come back from a grocery store with the most amazing haul- chicken, pork, half cow. They must think were the greatest hunters on earth |
#3
|
||||
|
||||
I agree, this food has very little meat in it whatsoever. You would be better off, imo, switching to something else.
__________________
We give dogs time we can spare, space we can spare and love we can spare. And in return, dogs give us their all. It's the best deal man has ever made. -M. Acklam |
#4
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
you can bet that a company like Hills won't invest in quality lamb either, it's again meat and bone leftovers after the good stuff has been carved off for human consumption. what is potato protein? why not whole potatoes? dogs need proteins from meat, not potatoes, corn and rice Dogs need a LOT more protein than 20% (which is ridiculously low, specially considering that the protein is mostly from vegetables) and 8% fat will do nothing to promote good health or a good coat. it's amazing dogs don't drop dead of nutitional deficiencies by age 5 from this crap! anyways. you can either switch your boy on a better kibble like Innova EVO or EVO RM (red meat), Solid Gold's Barking at the Moon, Natural Prairie's Raw Instinct, etc. No grains just meats. go slowly with the transition, add a broad-spectrum digestive enzyme like Prozyme, some plain yogurt is good too. There will be soft poops at first while your boy adjusts to the change but in the end it's for the best. If you really want to feed him a diet that may prolong his life, eliminate arthritis, allergies, doggy odor, promote the best shiny soft coat and white teeth and reeeeaaallly small firm perfect poops... head on over to the raw feeding section of this forum and check it out. you'll be amazed.
__________________
"Let Thy Food Be Thy Medicine" Take nothing but pictures, leave nothing but footprints. :love: ~Akitas Are Love~ :love: Last edited by technodoll; February 8th, 2007 at 09:45 AM. |
#5
|
||||
|
||||
Okay guys! where do I start? I have no clue what food to even try? Can these foods be bought in a pet store ?? If I have had problems in the past with chicken, beef, lamb etc...how do I know what to buy? I am stummped!
Cindy |
#6
|
||||
|
||||
Natural Balance makes a vegetarian formula, if you're convinced meat is the problem. Some dogs do really well on it (Dalmations in particular, due to their sensitivities to meat).
http://www.naturalbalanceinc.com/dog...n.html#Product |
#7
|
||||
|
||||
Thanks Spirit! The issue is I dont know if it really is the meat? As I said before I did try him on just chicken, then just beef etc but the rash was always there! So on the advise of the vert I have been feeding him what they prescribe?? (I guess what I have learned out of all of this is the the vets have no clue about the food they prescribe!) I have tried him on vegetarian food and he had diarrea but that could be from the change in food?? Oh well I guess I will just have to keep him on this food until I can figure this out???
Cindy |
#8
|
|||
|
|||
skin problems
I currently own a Great Dane that has the same problem. our vet has recommended tha we shampoo his spots, with a two week supply of antibotics...this was after two skin scrapings that came out negative(which is a good thing). So my husband and I taken things into our own hands
With ever meal (which is twice a day) we add one vitamin e tablet and some omega 3 oil to their meal... this does help to some degree we notice that it is only bad in the winter months when the weather is dry.... Good luck and hopefully someone out there has a cure...... |
#9
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
I would suggest first that you eliminate EVERYTHING (no treats, no table scraps, etc) but his kibble. Switch him to a food he was already on and doing "not too badly" on, and after a week with NO extras, see if anything's changed. Otherwise, switch him (slowly) to a simple food like Natural Balance Venison and Brown Rice, and stick with it for a while. Switching foods is hard on your dogs stomach, so you want to do this as little as absolutely possitble. Stay away from chicken (if chicken isn't a main ingredient, chicken fat is, so read your labels carefully), and find something simple. The reason I like products like "duck and potato", is that there is nothing else in it. It's DUCK, POTATO, and added vitamins and minerals. There's no fruit or veggies... one protein, one grain. Another food like Evo could benefit if grains are the allergy trigger (Evo is grain free), but again, you're looking at more than one protien source as well as fruit and veggies. We have a few dogs that come into my work with skin problems, and these poor owners have spent THOUSANDS of dollars on tests and various remedies, as well as switching their foods, allergy tests, etc... One dog that comes to our work on a weekly basis is a little white, uuuhhh... malti-poo, I think she is... but I digress. The damn dog is allergic to human dander!! Over $8,000 of tests later, one shot a month is all it takes to stop the rashes and hot spots. It could be just about anything, so don't assume right off the bat that it's the food. Monitor your dog caefully and see if you can pinpoint when it gets worse. It could even be that he's allergic to your perfume. |
#10
|
||||
|
||||
Thanks Spirit! I had better luck on the Hills Hypoallergenic.(which is Duck & Potato) ...the spots rarely come out! but again I do not think it is food! I do not feed him anything other than kibble..he cannot seem to stand anything else! I even make his dog cookies for him because they do not have all the additives! But even cookies I only use them to give him a treat occasionally...I think he has allergy's to our environment..but I dont know what in the environment it is?? His nose drips all the time!
People talk about all these brands of food? where do they get them? at a pet store? or do they have to order from somewhere special? What is EVo? sorry I am not familiar with some of the terms used? Cindy |
#11
|
||||
|
||||
can dogs grow out of allergy's like kids do ??
__________________
Have a heart that never hardens, and a temper that never tires, and a touch that never hurts." |
#12
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
If your dog did well on duck and potato you could try Natural Balance potato and duck formula. It's ingredients are much better than Hills. |
#13
|
||||
|
||||
I just remembered Natural Balance has citric acid in their food which can be bad if your dog is prone to bloat.
Have you ever tried him on a fish based food? Timberwolf Organics Ocean Blue is a good choice but may be too expensive. California Natural Herring and Sweet Potato (also made by Naturapet) is good with minimal ingredients which is good for dogs with allergies. |
#14
|
||||
|
||||
I second Natural Balance Duck and Potato. It's very similar to Hills, but without all the additional fillers.
As for the citric acid. if your dog IS prone to bloat, don't let your dog drink ANY water around dinner time as this can make it worse. I deal with dogs that have "allergies" on a regular basis, and contrary to popular belief, food is rarely the trigger (in my experience), though it often does contribute. What do you bathe him with? Is there cedar in your backyard? Do you have old carpets? What do you use to clean your hardwood floors? do you wash his bed with detergent or fabric softener (if so, what)? Many questions to be asked here. |
#15
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
HI I am not sure what bloat is..?? Is that when the tummy turns ?? I can only seem to use an oatmeal bath with him..I tried regular dog shampoo that looked like baby shampoo and he was dried out after that.....there are cedar trees in the backyard behind us?? We removed the carpets in our house last year and we have hardwood floors..the carpet removal was wonderful because Winston would vomit and I was forever cleaning carpets!! I do wash his bed with tide and usually I use bounce sheets?? As soon as the furnace comes on he begins to scratch.....and scratch!...sometimes the vet has put him on prednisone to stop him from being uncomfortable scratching...I have noticed that his coat looks good but he has areas where it is dry..especially around the shoulder area..if you call it the shoulder?? I tried flax seed oil before and it gave him the diarrea.....I changed his food to fish food and he refused to eat the fish! (mind you once again it was the vet food!!) Years ago I tried Doctor Maggies but I did not notice any change ...like you said so many questions????? Unfortunately that is why I always went with what the vet reccomended....but after reading everyting in this forum I have questions once again!! I dont mind paying for the food..it costs me $90.00 bag now.... P.S I have often wondered if he is allergic to my 2 cats? Cindy |
#16
|
||||
|
||||
LOL! Well if a dog can be allergic to human dander, I see no reason why not cats.
As for the above (cedar, tide, bounce, etc), eliminate all possible. Wash his bed in just water, or use a MILD soap (like something you would use for babies), and not much of it (capful). Tide is pretty strong and bounce is even stronger, so I would eliminate these two immediately. The furnace seems to be a pretty major trigger, so I would also reccommend cleaning or replacing the filter to an "ultra allergen filter" (or similar). In extreme cases like this, I find that the most effective way, though not always the easiest, is to clean, protect, and eliminate. Even writing things down might help (like after you washed his bed and the itching got worse). If your dog goes... let's say 2 days without a hot spot or itching, then you can reintroduce things (perfumes, treats, etc) one by one, and see if your dog reacts. Do a search on bloat. It will give you more information than anyone here can. |
#17
|
||||
|
||||
Thank you Spirit! I never really thought about the tide & bounce...but good advice....As for the furnace it seems to me to be the heat in the house....the dryness...we do take good care of the furnace...but we will have to try to rule these things out! Do you know if the allergy tests they do on dogs is one that would provide any useful info? like specifics? maybe that would tell me if it is the cats as well?? The drippy nose seems to make me think it is something in the household...
I just remembered as well that we used to think in the summer he was allergic to the grass...or even the lawn fertilizer...so now we dont use the fertilizer anymore! he still gets the rash/spots with or without the fertilizer .........like you said so many questions?? Regardless I have learned that the food I have been advised to give him is not good! That is discouraging considering the vets reccomend this stuff?? Thanks again! I appreciate all the comments.. Cindy |
#18
|
||||
|
||||
Glad I could help.
Cedarwood oil, used in small amounts, is a natural flea and tick repellant (it's used in some dog soaps or sprays). But the more concentrated oils from cedar wood (ie. cedar mulch, or a tree), is a skin irritant for humans. Any gardener knows that if you stick your hand in a pile of this stuff, your skin will usually swell up with little red welts and itch like crazy (similar to fiberglass), so if you have a lot of cedar in your backyard, keep your dog away from this as well, until you can rule it out. |
#19
|
|||
|
|||
Have you ever considered mold to be the culprit? I say that because you mentioned that he scratches like crazy when the furnace comes on. Our pup had the same issue and our vet was quite sure it was due to mold (we live in a pretty old house). Apparently the mold lies dormant in the furnace but once you turn it on, it is dispensed into the air. Also, many people use humidifiers in the winter to dampen the air in their house, but this makes the problem with mold even worse because mold thrives in moist environments. Is your house quite old by any chance?
Also, even if these allergies are not food related, I would highly recommend switching from the vet food regardless of what the vet tells you about how good it is for them. Technodoll is right...dogs are carnivores and need MEAT...not corn and veggies. Your dog is having large stools from this kibble because he's not absorbing anything from the food and it's all coming out the other end. I would highly recommend a raw diet as well. It's healthy, nutritious, species appropriate, and has absolutely no fillers or additives of any kind....only mother nature's work at its finest
__________________
Viola and the furkids |
#20
|
||||
|
||||
Actually, cats are carnivores. Dogs are omnivores, and will often eat a herbivore, or another omnivore in the wild.
|
#21
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
That said, dogs can eat veggies & fruit, but they thrive on meat, organs and bones. You say they often eat a herbibore or omnivore. Well, sure. Thats because they're meat organs and bones. And they don't eat the stomach contants. They shake them out. No doubt they would get a small amount of plant matter, but not near enough to say they are omnivores.
__________________
Please please please give Maggie the steak! Its not too big for her little mouth! Their impression of power is remarkable. They give one the feeling of immense reserves of energy, of great reservoirs of knowledge, of tolerance of disposition, obstinacy of purpose, and tenacity of principle. They are responsive, and they have a lot of quiet, good sense. -J. Wentworth Day, from The Dog in Sport, 1938 Last edited by Scott_B; February 9th, 2007 at 07:29 AM. |
#22
|
||||
|
||||
I'll clarify, but let's keep this tiopic on thread.
Of course they do, but don't forget that wolves (a carnivore by nature) eat a LOT of plant material. Whether it comes from grazing in a field or from the intestines of their prey, they do consume more than just meat. If fresh kill is not easily available, they will also consume things like worms, grasshoppers, or berries and fruit as part of their natural diet. Animals they hunt are more often than not, omnivoes. The first thing they go for is the stomach and intestines. When they're done, they move on to the "meat", bones and organs. Also, the canine BARF has less meat protein than feline (canine = 65% meat, feline = 95% meat - on average). Meat, organ, bones, veggies and often fruits. Ratio is usually 2:1. The grain free thing throws me because of their natural diet (see below), but that's another topic altogether. Omnivores are defined as an animal which eats both meat and plants. Carnivore is defined as an animal who eats mainly meat. I guess you can say that dogs are carnvores with omnivore characteristics, but it can get confusing when you take a supposed meat eater, who eats plant (and meat) eaters. Depending on who you ask, or where you look, you'll get conflicting information. We have a booklet at work (explaining the BARF diet) that goes into great detail about 'cats vs dogs' and 'omnivores vs carnivores'. I don't 100% understand it (the whole thing confuses me, and don't even get me started on grain free). Not that it matters. You couldn't pay me to feed my dog raw. But that's the bottom line, anyway. |
#23
|
||||
|
||||
i've yet to see a wolf grazing in a field
|
#24
|
||||
|
||||
Well, i don't feed a Barf diet. I feed and promote a raw diet. The Barf diet puts too much emphasis on bones & veggies. 80% meat, 10-15% bones and 5-10% organs is what i feed. No veggies (other then treats) and no grains, other then the cookies they get.
Wolves do go for the stomach area first, but they shake out the contents. But I'm sure they will get some plant mater. And yes, I've read that they will graze on grass, however they do not get any nutritional benefits from it. Plant walls are made of Cellulose and dogs cannot break this down. Thats why with a Barf diet you have to grind the veggies to break down the cellulose. Well, if a dog cant chew grass then how could it possibly get any nutritional benefit from it? Same with berries. I can give my pup blue berries and they come out pretty much the same way they went in. Worms & grasshoppers are still meat. Quote:
I will agree, there has been debate over what dogs are, as they can eat fruits & veggies when processed for them, and survive, unlike cats, who need meat. However more and more people are realizing that they are indeed carnivores.
__________________
Please please please give Maggie the steak! Its not too big for her little mouth! Their impression of power is remarkable. They give one the feeling of immense reserves of energy, of great reservoirs of knowledge, of tolerance of disposition, obstinacy of purpose, and tenacity of principle. They are responsive, and they have a lot of quiet, good sense. -J. Wentworth Day, from The Dog in Sport, 1938 |
#25
|
||||
|
||||
determining a food allergy
Generally using a protein source (whether plant based or meat based) that the dog has NEVER been exposed to before is the key to managing food allergies. This can sometimes means familial exposure as well (mom dad etc)
Just an FYI a "food allergy" is immune system based, whereas an intollerance is not. Sometimes intollerances exhibit as scratching, gas etc. WHen searching for a food, the fat source DOES not need to be looked at, as IT IS a different molecular structure than protein, and does not cause a reaction. This would not be the case in some of the new foods that are using species specific collagen, you need to watch out for those, as they are a protein (not really usable) but still on the radar in a testing sense. Here is a great website regarding testing, it also has an article regarding molecular structure (dalton weight) of fat sources. www.vetallergy.com |
#26
|
||||
|
||||
#27
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
Ryan's Pet Foods (Hamilton): 50 Dundurn St E. - 905-528-2775 Ryan's Pet Foods (Stoney Creek): 184 Hwy 8 - 905-662-0904 Cindy, you will be able to find most of the premium foods at these stores Do not feed any treats or table scraps when trying a new food for at least a month if the food agree, only introduce one treat in a 2wk period, start with a food with simple ingredients ( one protien, one carb) this will help you indentify potential allergies or food intolerances, keep a diary of the foods you tried with the ingredient list incuded You may want to pick up some digestive enzymes as well to help with the food changes If you chose Canidae try the lamb and rice formula, if you have problems it could be the lamb, so then try the chicken and rice formula, if still troubles well both have rice in common so meat may be okay, so next step would be to find a riceless food. So now go to the Natural Balance line, look for a food that has a different meat and carb Duck and Potato or sweet potato and fish, If you can try each food for at least a month, to give his body time to adjust to the food, if you try all 4 foods and still have problems, chances are it is not a food allergy
__________________
"He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion." - Unknown |
#28
|
||||
|
||||
Hello again...I went out this evening and bought a new food...Please share your thoughts on it as I will post the ingrediants..Thanks
Cindy Dick Van Pattens Natural Duck & Potato Ingred Potato, duck,duck meal, canola oil, potato fiber, dl-methionine, l-lysine, sodium chloride, salmon oil, flaxseed oil, rosemary extract, natural flavor, yucca schidigera exctract, potassium chloride, chloride, choline choloride, vitamin e supplement, ferous sulphide, zinc proteinate, copper proteinate, potassium iodide, thiamine monostrate, manganese proteriate, zinc sulphate, vitamin a supplement, biotin, calcium, vitamin b6, b12 d3, vitamin k It says on the bag no artificial preservatives, no flavors or colors..does not contain cornm soy, wheat,rice,eggs or dairy products... Winston did reasonably well on duck and potato in the Hills Hypoallergenic blend... He pooped way less as well. Cindy |
#29
|
||||
|
||||
Hi
I would prefer to see a meat or meal (llike duck, vension etc) as the 1st ingredient, HOWEVER when you are dealing with allergies finding something that works is the ticket. Good luck |
#30
|
||||
|
||||
Well ...1 full day on the Natural Balance Duck and Potato...Last night I was pleased to see a good formed poop! (sorry for the description) and thought the food transition was going to go well...until todays poop! soft in the beginning and then balance liquid! my poor boy! I always feel so bad for him when food changes happen because it always affects him! I am really hoping that the change will work..
I feel so bad to think I have been feeding him crap! all this time! and what makes it worse is that it came from a vet!! I was reading the vet allergy link that Spirit posted and it was informative! I have to say this is the description of Winston to a tee!! with nothing left out! The classic signs of an allergic animal begin with scratching, feet licking and chewing and face rubbing. As the allergies become more severe, the chewing may eventually lead to bacterial skin problems, although it is not uncommon for them to cause vomiting and diarrhea. The last time I had him in to the vet they suggested he could have an Endoscopy to see what is going on?? They also suggested I could do an allergy test. I was a little surprised at the quote for an allergy test!! $600.00. Does that sound like the price for that? I have no idea?? I was thinking of giving him an immodium today to help with the diarrea but not sure if I should considering I am currently changing his food?? Cindy |
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|