Another food for Jemma and Boo...

[gypsy_girl]

Regarding the sneaky kibblers.... This calculation is the same that "premade" raw uses when determing protein on label. As an example if the bone is ground, that ground bone supplies "protein" on label, so depending on the makers they may or may not use this "calculation"
Feeding raw yourself as opposed to premade is probably better,as you know exactly what you are feeding. I do this, but I also get my meat tested, as where I live we are selenium deficient, and that is a concern for me. This is tricky, as it means I am buying the whole animal, as I do not wish to test meat every time I go to the butcher.l

[rainbow]

Prin, in your spare time, I think you should "math up" all the dog food brands.

[gypsy_girl]

Yes please!! That would be great. You don't need to sleep that much right?

[rainbow]

LOL, gypsy girl....actually, in all fairness, I think you should and Prin should split the job.

[Scott_B]

Originally Posted by Prin

lol how do you know your dogs are getting enough of everything if you don't math it up?

Its Soooooooo simple. Feed a variety of meats, organs & bones and magic, they get everything they need Mother nature has the best science

[coppperbelle]

What if you fed the Canidae and added some protein to their meals? When I was concerned about the protein level in the DVP I gave both my dogs sardines, cooked chicken and/or beef.

[Prin]

The budget's a little tight these days, and these doggies can't digest real fish (i.e cheap sardines ). I really got buggered with these two. Bring 'em back!!

[coppperbelle]

Then I would try just the Canidae once you are through with the other foods. See how they do on it. If you find they aren't doing well then you can try something else.

[OntarioGreys]

Here is my thoughts.

First question have you been giving supplements all along with all the food changes ????? The resons I ask is one person I can recall was going through the same problems with food, it turned out it was something in the supplement that she was using that dog was allergic too, so it screwed up all her food testing results. Just something to consider

First I would transition to 100% canidae L&R so I know if it agrees with their digestive tract and does not produce allergies before worrying about meat content. Try for a couple months if no severe reactions all alone, if you need treat use the kibble as the treat( you want nothing to interfer with the testing results, a mistake many people make as they do not remove all other possible food source that could potentially be causing problems, that includes supplements such as oils and yogurt ) Coat may not be great due to the low protein and fat, but that is okay for the trial as long as no itchiness or irritation.

If trial is complete and things have went okay now time to do something about the protein. You did not like the results of the other food and do not know if some ingredient is causing a problem, so it really makes no sense to add. So my suggestion is to go with 100% natural proteins as an additive to boost the meat content, and not canned as too many additives to really identify what could be causing problems.

My first choice recommendation would be adding a 1/2 to 3/4 cup of raw tripe daily you can get frozen and pre cut into serving sized chunks, thaw before serving. TD may be able to help you find a source ( canned cooked tripe has almost half the protein and amino acids would be damaged due to cooking, plus preservatives are added) would help digestion and allow better metabolism usage of minerals in the food you, then there is no need ever for yogurt or adding supplements which could also be the source of problems

In an analysis of a sample of green tripe by a Woodson-Tenant Lab in Atlanta, Georgia, (see end of this article for full details) it was discovered that the calciumhosphorous ratio is 1:1, the overall pH is on the acidic side which is better for digestion, protein is 15.1, fat 11.7 & it contained the essential fatty acids, Linoleic & Linolenic, in their recommended proportions. Also discovered, was the presence of Lactic Acid Bacteria. Lactic Acid Bacteria, also known as Lactobacillus Acidophilus, is the good intestinal bacteria. It is the main ingredient in probiotics.


Finally, because of its rubbery texture, serving it in large chunks also aids the canine in strengthening its jaw muscles & has an added benefit as a form of canine dental floss.

If you can't source then find raw regular ground beef best to buy in bulk prepare to freeze like hamburger patties in serving size, thaw before serving don't bother with lean, dogs need animal fat, most commercial diets do not contain enough and there causes lack of hydration which in turn affects skin and coat, when starting out add just a bit, so that you dogs can build up the digestive enzymes to digest, gradually increase to a cup a day added to their kibble.

Again while doing trials of meat additives do not introduce any other additives or treats that could skew results.

[gypsy_girl]

I'm with Ontario Greys on every point!

[Skryker]

Just my , but transition them to just the L&R and see how that goes for awhile. I wonder if Jemma's flakeys are from something that Solid Gold is doing since they adjusted all their formulas?

[Prin]

OG, I know it's not the supplement because when I stop the supplement, she gets worse really quickly...

It's day two of giving them about 1/4 of the Canidae at each meal and Jemma's already starting to chew her paws. Could be just the salt though, so I'm going to wait and see a little longer.

As for treats, these days, all they are getting is 100% beef liver.

[rainbow]

I think OG's post makes a lot of sense and that's what you should do.

[Skryker]

Originally Posted by Prin

It's day two of giving them about 1/4 of the Canidae at each meal and Jemma's already starting to chew her paws. Could be just the salt though, so I'm going to wait and see a little longer.

Oh, no! that it's excess road salt from the recent snowfall. Poor Jemma!

[Prin]

Maybe I should explain the road to here a little more...


Ok, so here's Jemma's diet history:

She was on Wellness when we got her, in 2002, but Wellness had to be special ordered straight from Misouri or some other M state. So she went on Lamb and rice Pukanuba with Boo. They both did great on it, but then Jemma started to deteriorate, with ear infections getting worse and worse. So I tried Proplan Sensitive stomachs (more fish based), but then as soon as I opened the bag, I saw "animal digest" so I gave the bag to my dad and then I started searching. And I searched and searched and searched. And then I found Wolf King. I got a sample of that, threw it into the car and the doggies ravaged it. Like ripped up the plastic and everything, trying to get at the food. Meanwhile, there was a whole bag of Laketrout cookies there untouched...

Anyway, for about 2 years, they did GREAT on Wolf King, with the Lamb and Laketrout cookies. Their fur was GREAT and Jemma wasn't scratching at all anywhere. But then Wolf king changed their formula and they both got the splats. And then the Lamb and Laketrout formula changed too and Jemma couldn't eat the cookies anymore either.

So then I posted here on my quest to find a food they could both eat, removing what I KNEW they were allergic to already- for Jemma, no wheat, barley and corn and for Boo, no poultry and not too much flax..

Both went onto EvoRM sometime in the fall, I guess, cold turkey. Boo did great on it right away. Stools firm, energy good, coat ok. Jemma did ok in the beginning and then just went downhill fast. Within 3 or so weeks, she had HUGE dandruff flakes. Her ears were ok, but her body just gave you the itchies to look at it. I gave her the Salmon oil supplement, but it took so much of it and she was drinking so much too as a result, and whenever I stopped, the dandruff came back even worse. So I decided to get her off EvoRM.

Ever since she went on Evo RM, she didn't get any cookies. She got a little bit of real salmon once but couldn't digest it, and some cooked beef, but that was it.

So then around Christmas, she went on BATM. She did really well and her 'ruffs were almost gone. But then she buggered her teeth and had to be on soft food for 2 weeks. I put her on the Evo 95% meat, and her coat just got horrible again.

After the two weeks, she was back on BATM, and has been for about 3 weeks now (or maybe 4...), and her coat is amazing, but the skin underneath is still flakey. Her ears flare up intermittently. She can be fine one day and the next day, her ears are swollen shut.

But is it the food, her thyroid or is it wheat?

If I drop one macaroni on the floor or one piece of bread crust and she hoovers it or I don't realize it and she finds it, she's done. But I can't exactly eliminate wheat from my entire house, can I? I'm not exactly Ms Atkins here...

So that's where I am. Wondering if I should have stayed on BATM longer, wondering if it's the BATM that is keeping her skin flakey, wondering if I'll ever figure this out as long as there's wheat in the house, wondering if it's her thyroid, even though it's not progressive...

So, have I done an elimination diet? Yes. Many, many times. That's allergies 101. I try something, see if she gets better or worse or stays the same, and then move to the next step.

I can't feed raw, or even significantly supplement their food with human food, simply because I don't have the budget for that, and honestly, complicating their diet when I'm stuck figuring things out seems a little counterproductive.

So long story short: Jemma's allergies are complicated, and are even more complicated because of her extreme sensitivity to wheat that sends her body into flare-ups out of nowhere.

[Hunter's_owner]

Oh Prin, it has been quite the ordeal for you haven't it. Hopefuly you will solve the problem soon

[Prin]

Yep. I didn't get into all this food business for fun. Thanks.

[rainbow]

Have you ever taken her to one of those naturopathic holistic vets?

[Prin]

Yeah, she went to one before we got her... I wasn't too impressed, to be honest.

[rainbow]

LOL....if she went to one "before" you got her then how could you have an opinion of him/her?

[Prin]

She went right before we got her, and so I was given the ear treatment protocol of said vet and I was not impressed...

[rainbow]

I knew you had a reason but I was just curious. What about the vet TD took Dakotah to?

[Skryker]

Prin! I didn't realize that Jemma couldn't even eat the lamb and laketrout cookies anymore. :sad: When I realized that they were changing a bit, I hoped it wouldn't cause any problems for your doggies.

[meb999]

feed them NOTHING mwahhahhahahaha! That'll solve your soft poo problem!!

I voted half and half also...if you want to stick to only canidae, then I would just supplement with fresh protein or canned tuna (or salmon, or sardines, or whatever) to boost the meat levels a bit

[Prin]

Well, we're trying halfzies for a little bit, mainly because I have so much of the other foods left... They really like the Canidae, but it makes them drink way more (maybe it's salty?). I hope they do ok...

hehe meb, wouldn't that just solve everything? No poopy scoopy, probably no drinking either, and they'd just cuddle all day long because they'd have no energy. :sad:

Disclaimer: the above statement was absolutely entirely sarcastic. In no way should anybody ever stop feeding their pets for any reason... Well, unless you're fasting them for a few hours because they have explosive diarrhea or something, but even then you should see a vet if you're unsure. Thanks.

[gypsy_girl]

Yes, Prin I have had that thought too.... Usually in puppyhood

[vfrohloff]

I voted for the half and half also. My guys are on half Canidae L&R and half BATM and they're doing great. Benny has a chicken intolerance so that's why we were on Canidae but I found their breath really bad and their skin a bit flaky so that's why I added the BATM. I also didn't like the way low protein in Canidae. It's been about 6 weeks and their breath is much better and their coats are wonderful and no splats. They also seem less obsessed with eating their own poop; they still like it, but aren't as driven about it as they were before. However, my dogs have never had ear problems or skin itchies so I can't say whether or not the Canidae would help that or not. that it all works out for you Prin.

[Prin]

Thanks, vfrohloff, that really helps especially since your dog is so similar to Boo as far as food goes.

[Prin]

It's been a few days now, and the only major change so far is the beasties keep on asking for another meal. Whenever we move, Jemma brings us to the bag and then cries a little bit. Too bad!