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What constitutes a BYB?
Mods - if you don't think it should be here then remove it.
In an effort to move a debate from a thread where it shouldn't be to a place where it can, hopefully, be debated without any feelings being hurt I am opening this thread. I am also hoping to be educated about bybs as that isn't quite the area I am known for. So - What exactly is a BYB? What factors determine if it is? What differs back yard breeding from a puppy mill? At what point does a back yard breeder become a puppy mill? Do they need to be selling a certain number of puppies? Do they need to be set up differently? Do they need a license? What can we do as a cohesive unit to educate people? From dogtime.com - Backyard breeder An individual who causally breeds dogs without titles or clearances and without any clear regard for improving, and maintaining the breed standard, temperament or keeping it free of genetically linked defects. http://dogtime.com/definition/backyard-breeder Wikipedia describes BYB's as: Backyard Breeder is a term used for breeders of dogs in a largely pejorative sense by the Animal Welfare community, ASPCA, larger established breeders and dog club. It is used to refer to one of the groups usually deemed not to be a Reputable Breeder. It implies either or both of careless home breeding for non-commercial reasons or a small commercial operation that does not adhere to good breeding, care and sale practises. In contrast, larger commercial operations of a similar type are usually termed a puppy mill (especially in North America) or puppy farm. This type of breeder is usually regarded by the Animal Welfare, ASPCA, and canine establishment as likely to exhibit one or more of the following faults: Ignorance of selective breeding goals and techniques, and lack of familiarity with the breed standard of the type of dog being bred. Exclusive focus on the breed standard involving little genetic screening or Co-efficient of Inbreeding calculations. Breeding of a working breed for appearance rather than working ability. This is a criticism also levelled at 'reputable' breeders who breed for the show ring - in some cases distinct working and show strains have emerged. Lack of adequate veterinary care and maintenance. Excessive breeding from individual bitches, to the detriment of their health. Sale of puppies with genetic disorders or undisclosed illnesses before they become evident to buyers. Lack of screening of potential owners or the provision of suitable information to prevent buyers from purchasing a dog that may be inappropriate for them or their lifestyle. Breeding of dogs for illegitimate reasons, such as for the usually illegal sports of baiting and dog fighting or to defend venues of criminal activity. Dog fanciers generally believe that such ill-bred dogs are the reason for the bad reputation of some breeds in the public perception, and the resulting breed-specific legislation. Breeding without concern for the possibility of finding homes, though commercial means or otherwise, for the puppies, thus adding to the population of unwanted dogs. From examiner.com - Backyard breeder - Breeds at least one pair of dogs together in the hopes of raising a litter. http://www.examiner.com/x-21101-Coon...nd-puppy-mills Have fun folks but play nice.
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Assumptions do nothing but make an ass out of u and me. We can stick our heads in the sand for only so long before it starts choking us. Face it folks. The pet population is bad ALL OVER THE WORLD! |
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I think that this is very appropriate since a pet forum is suppose to be informative and educational. This also will help people who purchased pets in such establishements - explain perhaps why their loved pets are ailing with certain behavioral or medical ailments.
Also - taking a dog from such establishments are not rescueing the said animal..well in a way they are but they are also only encouraging the practice. Reporting such places is doing all animals a better service then just purchasing them and letting it go. Don't forget - puppymillers started somewhere..usually they started out as a byb..saw the profit and then went BIG. Great thread 14+K. |
#3
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I agree, this is a good idea! 14+
I think that Wiki descrbed BYB's perfectly, but for me its really the people who breed carelessly, random breeds, without concequences or concerns of any sort. It could be one litter or many - it's still wrong. My |
#4
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I know in the US, anyone involved in the commercial sale of dogs is supposed to have a license that is issued by the USDA. This includes brokers. The USDA is supposed to inspect these kennels/brokers but IMO that doesn't happen - which makes the license not worth the paper it's written on. Most pet store owners will use that as a marketing tactic to sell their puppies though - "Our breeders are all federally licensed" kind of thing. Makes them sound like fine, upstanding breeders producing healthy pups.
IMO a byb is a breeder who breeds for profit, but who breeds only one or two breeds of dogs - and lots of times is breeding for specific traits without concern for the health risks (such as breeding for size or coat color or breeding "designer" mixes). In my mind, a mill is a large commercial operation breeding numerous breeds and holds a large population of "breeding stock". IMO you would see much more horrific conditions at a mill than at a byb's facility - although I'm sure there are byb's out there whose kennels would make your stomach turn. I think the ads you see in the newspaper or online offering puppies are mostly byb's - with some brokers for the mills thrown in there too. For example - Hazel's breeder.........now that I know more, I would consider her a byb. While some of her dogs have had the genetic testing done, IMO her quest to produce bigger dogs, with more of them being the pewter or chocolate varieties, has created problems in her breeding lines. I've read that newfs are 50% more likely to suffer ACL injuries than most other breeds, and when newfs are line-bred that risk goes up even more. Hazel's breeder does quite a bit of line breeding - and it's showing in the puppies that she is producing IMO. IMO she thinks she is 'bettering the breed' but she's not.
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Kandy Livin in a Newfie Drool Zone |
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Thank you Kandy. Very interesting information. I was not aware that the US regulated, or tried to, the breeding facilities. Or, more correctly, I think I was aware but forgot.
Do you think the biggest problem with not being able to regulate better is because there are not enough people trained to do the job? Or do you feel the people trained are in the pockets of the big time breeders? There are more and more puppy mills popping up all the time. It seems to me the rules governing breeders need to be much more stringent than they are now. People get slapped with a small fine, their dogs taken away (hopefully), and within a month have opened another site somewhere nearby the first. The thing is unless the government is more willing to involve themselves in this quagmire I don't see things changing any time soon.
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Assumptions do nothing but make an ass out of u and me. We can stick our heads in the sand for only so long before it starts choking us. Face it folks. The pet population is bad ALL OVER THE WORLD! Last edited by 14+kitties; March 18th, 2010 at 02:23 PM. Reason: grammar |
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Looking back 16 years ago I am now almost positive the breeder I got Keesha from was probably a byb. In those days not much was known about them. I went specifically looking for a bishon and Keesha just happened to be there. One tiny 10 week old silver toy poodle among a sea of white. Of course I fell in love on the spot. I got her for the bargain price of $300. Back then that was a lot of money. No papers though. That would have cost another $200. When Keesha turned a year old she started having seizures. We have dealt with them for a long long time. I have always wondered since then what health issues her parents had. The woman said she had no intention of selling her. She was "keeping her for a friend". So no parents on site.
Since joining Pets I have learned so much. But I still have tons more to learn.
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Assumptions do nothing but make an ass out of u and me. We can stick our heads in the sand for only so long before it starts choking us. Face it folks. The pet population is bad ALL OVER THE WORLD! |
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As far as BYB's, they are probably way better than Puppy Mills...I've seen lots of photos taken by people hands on in the field of BYB's and they ain't pretty....many of them don't even use their backyard but their home and live in the same squalor as the animals involved. |
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Assumptions do nothing but make an ass out of u and me. We can stick our heads in the sand for only so long before it starts choking us. Face it folks. The pet population is bad ALL OVER THE WORLD! |
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all my dogs were/are from bybs. Brina was on her way to the spca with her litter mates. I've recieved puppy mill doggies/puppies to hand over to rescues. I'm really not sure what the thread is about, I do agree with the meaning of byb's and puppymills that you posted 14+kitties. My grandmother had a registered kennel many moons ago, I use to help her with the nose printing (identification back in the old days)
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You'll see her yourself in the summer 14k, you can give the hug then, she might have cooties
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I think that depends are the reason for exchanging money for an animal. I know of certain cases where money was exchanged just to get the animal instant relief from the circumstances that it was living in.
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In an effort to move a debate from a thread where it shouldn't be to a place where it can, hopefully, be debated without any feelings being hurt I am opening this thread. I am also hoping to be educated about bybs as that isn't quite the area I am known for. - the most important part of the statement being to help educate. I am in no way trying to start an argument. Just an honest debate about bybs. There seems to be a huge misconception about what they are and what is just an "accidental" breeding. I can't wait!! I love that girl!! And her momma too! They are both special peeps.
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Assumptions do nothing but make an ass out of u and me. We can stick our heads in the sand for only so long before it starts choking us. Face it folks. The pet population is bad ALL OVER THE WORLD! |
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This is from No Puppy Mills Canada
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"Never doubt that a small, group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has." - Margaret Mead |
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It is not stopping the cycle. If it is not reported based on all the vetting that is done on these dogs saved from further hardships (which is evidence in itself) then it is allowed to continue. And ask yourself the question: what dog is taking the place of the one that is being relieved of these hardships?
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#16
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An agent goes to a call, pup in distress. They know the person involved is not going to relieve the pup of his distress, the person would rather kill the pup (legal if one hit does it, thus not causing suffering) than spend a dime. What do they do?....Write orders to be complied with in 5 minutes and go back and find dead pup.......OR......pay $50 and save a life? It's a fine line BenMax. |
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From what Ive seen, A BYB (In most cases) is a Dog owner that has good intentions and doesnt have the knowledge to actually know why breeding their dog/s is wrong..
They have dogs that they ether breed on purpose, or just let them get pregnant by a neighborhood dog and Give away the puppies or sell them. Alot of them think they are doing good in the world by bringing in puppies to sell/give to people.. Cuz lets face it, Who doesnt love a cute puppy? To most people in the world, A dog having puppies is just a natural thing. The majority of people whom S/N their dogs arent doing it to prevent pet overpopulation, but do it because they dont want to deal with puppies. Im sorry but I dont see every BYB as money hungry.. Alot of them Actually feel they are doing something good by Carrying on the blood lines of there well mannered dog.. Even though , their German shepherd or yorkie or whatever doesnt have the temperment they should have or the conformation they should have.. I dont think they are monsters.. I hate when people see somebody breeding there dog and right away say " SHUN SHUN ! *GASP* What kind of selfish creature are you for breeding your dog? You Must REALLY love money to put your dog throug such a horrid thing! Call the SPCA right away! " While the owner is just siiting there like WTF did I do? Ive known alot of dogs that have puppies when ever went into heat, but they were SO well taken care of in every other aspect of there life and I used to fawn over there puppies and couldnt wait for them to have more so I could see more puppies. All of us here were uneducated about these things at some point. And most of these Horrid BYBS are just that. Uneducated. They may ask money for puppies. But unfortunatly that is Normal in this society.. So why should they think its wrong?
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Keely - Yorkie Haley - German Shepherd Casey - version 2.0 - Black lab Jasper - White cat R.I.P Casey #1. Gone but never ever forgotten. |
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The case you are describing is very different than those that KNOW who the millers, byb'ers or brokers are. What about reporting it? Is that not what we always tell people to do when they know something wrong is happening? |
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Sorry Babymomma, without appearing disrespectful, I think you are a bit misguided......prefers to think nice things about people which isn't a bad thing at all. But misguided nevertheless.
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I think we keep seeing more and more mills because the demand is not going away. As one mill gets shut down, 2 more take it's place. It's got to start with educating people on where that cute puppy in the pet store window came from, or why you should not buy a puppy from an ad in the newspaper or an online ad. The trend of celebrities to have 'purse dogs' isn't helping anything, and of course every year after the large dog shows, whatever breed takes best in show suddenly sees a rise in demand. Humans are fickle - we see the newest remake of 101 Dalmations, and suddenly they are the "in" breed, we see celebrities we admire with "x" breed, and that's what we want too. We won't see puppy mills as a thing of the past until we quit lining their pockets, only when it is no longer profitable will they shut down. While I can certainly understand someone letting their heart talk them into buying a puppy just to remove it from horrible living conditions - sadly that is just putting the money in their pockets. IMO they don't care where the $$ are coming from, and it allows the cycle to continue. Even when those people sell some of their breeding stock, they are just going out and replacing it so that they can continue to mass produce puppies. Like the owner of one pet store here told me when I was criticizing him for selling puppies, "people want little dogs, they want teacup puppies and they want them right now".
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Kandy Livin in a Newfie Drool Zone |
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just because it's the natural thing to do doesn't make it right,,it's natural for humans to procreate too, but would you want your daughter getting knocked up every chance possible.
And yes we all think puppies are cute and smooshy, including the ones being put to sleep daily because people insist on breeding their dogs..breeders or yorkiepoo's and cockapoo's and every other poo you can name are not doing it for the goodness of the breed. they are doing it for money. now adays for anyone to say they didn't know better is wearing blinders. With the amount of advertising, etc there is no way you couldn't know. |
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I dont think I said anywhere that I agree'd with it.. Just looking at it from the view of a normal everyday pet owner. :/
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Keely - Yorkie Haley - German Shepherd Casey - version 2.0 - Black lab Jasper - White cat R.I.P Casey #1. Gone but never ever forgotten. |
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As for so called "rescues" who buy animals from BYB's or similar, that's a whole different can of beans. |
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Very very good points Chris. I cannot agrue them. Indeed the laws are very difficult to enforce and I do understand why some would pay to help the said animal in distress....
I personally report everything that I see. Yes - there is an impact...it may not be immediate, but over time places have been exposed. Do I think of all those that have suffered..yes, but I also know the ones that are saved today and not yesterday. Great arguement Chris. I respect your input. Point well taken. |
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Kandy brought up the issue of Livestock, one of the reasons the Animal Cruelty Laws don't carry more punch is Livestock, which is a pretty cruel business as we all know. Interesting convo....sadly my Masta is on the verge of walking through the door |
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no no 14+ I realize why you started the thread, don't get me wrong, I just wondered what we were posting about, if it was our thoughts on it or just information to help others?
I'm also wondering if byb and mill laws are different from province to province in Canada?? |
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In Ontario, the penalties are greater under Provincial Law than Federal. |
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all it takes is one phone call in cornwall to get action, I love our spca!! I wish all places could be like here
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Babymomma - you are the new upcoming generation. All our hopes are that your generation picks up the slack and moves forward. Right our wrongs.
I see from what you post that us old timers still have our work cut out for us. In saying this, My daughter is 18 years and very in tune with the way animals are treated. I am very proud to say that she is an animal advocate. She is aware of millers, byb'ers, brokers, and is a very active person in voicing her opinion to whomever will listen about petstores. She also refuses to eat certain animal products. Hopefully the children of today can make the difference. |
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