Not meaning to offend[B][/B]

[aslan]

Myself and others have noticed lately some members taking offense to comments made by others and would like to add our comments. I can't say if these comments are made out of prejudice or lack of information, but they are hurtful just the same. There were a couple comments made to do with homosexuality in a thread recently and i'd like to correct some things said or atleast how they were said.

The comment had to do with someone outing themselves and the backlash from it. First off kinda wondering how the person posting the comment felt this person should have " expressed " it. The way it was phrased made it appear that if you aknowledge your lifestyle you're too " active". So back in the closet we go.

The main thing i want to correct is....it is not a preference or a choice. Seriously do you think we would choose a life where we are discriminated against, beaten (and yes it still happens), having to fight for any rights we have. Do you think Mathew Sheppard chose to be beaten and left to die. It is genetic plain and simple. Yes in Canada after a long hard fight we are now able to get married but ONLY in Canada. For years we had to pay school taxes but were not allowed to adopt. There are countries where people are killed for this, others where the gov't will pay for a sex change, etc. Gay is what we are not who we are. Anyone from Pets.ca who has met me in person knows, the person you see here is the person i really am. If you meet me and like me what does it matter what i do in the privacy of my own home. Believe me we don't want to sleep with every person we meet of the same sex just as you don't want to sleep with every opposite sex person you meet.

Just so i'm clear,,I AM NOT asking anyone here to out themselves for the sake of this thread. I am openly gay so i seemed the best person to post this. What i am asking from people not just concerning this topic. Think before you speak you may be hurting someone.

[TacoGrl]

Originally Posted by aslan

Myself and others have noticed lately some members taking offense to comments made by others and would like to add our comments. I can't say if these comments are made out of prejudice or lack of information, but they are hurtful just the same. There were a couple comments made to do with homosexuality in a thread recently and i'd like to correct some things said or atleast how they were said.

The comment had to do with someone outing themselves and the backlash from it. First off kinda wondering how the person posting the comment felt this person should have " expressed " it. The way it was phrased made it appear that if you aknowledge your lifestyle you're too " active". So back in the closet we go.

The main thing i want to correct is....it is not a preference or a choice. Seriously do you think we would choose a life where we are discriminated against, beaten (and yes it still happens), having to fight for any rights we have. Do you think Mathew Sheppard chose to be beaten and left to die. It is genetic plain and simple. Yes in Canada after a long hard fight we are now able to get married but ONLY in Canada. For years we had to pay school taxes but were not allowed to adopt. There are countries where people are killed for this, others where the gov't will pay for a sex change, etc. Gay is what we are not who we are. Anyone from Pets.ca who has met me in person knows, the person you see here is the person i really am. If you meet me and like me what does it matter what i do in the privacy of my own home. Believe me we don't want to sleep with every person we meet of the same sex just as you don't want to sleep with every opposite sex person you meet.

Just so i'm clear,,I AM NOT asking anyone here to out themselves for the sake of this thread. I am openly gay so i seemed the best person to post this. What i am asking from people not just concerning this topic. Think before you speak you may be hurting someone.

You say "Gay is what we are not who we are"...fine then, why does it always seem to be the main focus in what gay people do/say? It seems that people know people are gay because they tell us in the first 30 secs of meeting us...we don't care.

The comments I made were not to hurt...they were the facts in what started a downward spiral for someone who was good at what they did...the PETA thing added to how that someone was already perceived from previous actions and away from mainstream she went. It was how she expressed it...the things she said about those who didn't really care either way...didn't really see why she was making such a big deal out of something that wasn't a big deal...something no one really cared about...most people said "what a beautiful voice" not "what a lesbian" and they bought her tapes/went to her concerts without a thought of her sexuality...until she started making people feel bad for not focussing on her "plight" as she perceived it...I was too busy enjoying her music to care...until it got to be too much drama.

Why exactly does sexuality even have to come into the picture anyway? Everyone has a talent and I don't really care what you do in bed...I don't go around "Hey I am hetro, love me or I'll sue you"...I don't have parades "celebrating" my sexuality...I and a lot of others just don't see the reason for all the hub-bub...you are who you are...enjoy life!

[aslan]

wow talk about a generalization..can't say i've ever walked up to anyone and said " hi i'm trish and i'm gay" i do speak of my wife by her name as i'm sure you do your spouse. Come to think of it i don't know any of my friends who introduce themselves that way..yes there are idiots in the gay community as in any other group on earth. When asked about her private life yes she could have responded none of your business, she chose not to hide and this was what ten years ago when it was even more discriminated against than it is now. I do have to say that the racism isn't quite as large as in other parts of society.

I have an 8yr old nephew who knows about me and auntie grace and loves us to death, but what he's learning at school is to call his friends as an insult,,faggot, queer, dyke,,sorry for this one folks i have even heard him say Nigger..believe you me he is corrected immediatley.

Yes we have a parade as do the blacks for Caribana, the chinese for new years, etc, etc. We're celebrating how far we've come and you'd be amazed how many heterosexuals are there to celebrate along with us..Everyone loves a good party.

Celebrities came out trying to help the rest of us get the rights that you take for granted every day.

[aslan]

just a little statistics for you,,we're not asking to be treated better, just equal. you ask me why sexuality comes into it,you tell me.


Students who describe themselves as lesbian, gay, bisexual or transgendered are five times more likely to miss school because of feeling unsafe. 28% are forced to drop out. --National Gay and Lesbian Task Force, "Anti-Gay/Lesbian Victimization," New York,
The vast majority of victims of anti-lesbian/gay violence - possibly more than 80% - never report the incident, often due to fear of being "outed." --New York Gay and Lesbian Anti-Violence Project Annual Report,
85% of teachers oppose integrating lesbian, gay and bisexual themes in their curricula. --"Making Schools Safe for Gay and Lesbian Youth: Report of the Massachusetts Governor's Commission on Gay and Lesbian Youth,"
Due to sexual orientation discrimination, lesbians earn up to 14% less than their heterosexual female peers with similar jobs, education, age and residence, according to a study by the University of Maryland. --Badgett, M.V. Lee, "The Wage Effects of Sexual Orientation Discrimination," Industrial and Labor Relations Review,
42% of homeless youth identify as lesbian, gay or bisexual. --Orion Center, Survey of Street Youth, Seattle, WA: Orion Center,
More than 84% of Americans oppose employment discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation. --Survey Conducted by Newsweek,
75% of people committing hate crimes are under age 30 - one in three are under 18 - and some of the most pervasive anti-gay violence occurs in schools. --New York Gay and Lesbian Anti-Violence Report,
Lesbian, gay and bisexual youth are at a four times higher risk for suicide than their straight peers. --Gibson P., LCSW, "Gay Male and Lesbian Youth Suicide," Report of the Secretary's Task Force on Youth Suicide, U.S. Department of Health and Human Services,
A survey of 191 employers revealed that 18% would fire, 27% would refuse to hire and 26% would refuse to promote a person they perceived to be lesbian, gay or bisexual. --Schatz and O'Hanlan, "Anti-Gay Discrimination in Medicine: Results of a National Survey of Lesbian, Gay and Bisexual Physicians,"

[Stacer]

Amen Aslan

Didn't see the original thread where this started, but had to chime in. I've got a close family member that's gay and find it really hard to fathom that some prejudiced attitudes continue to persist.

*off to find thread*

[Frenchy]

ditto aslan , I myself have a couple of gay friends , which makes no difference to me. When I meet people , I look at the person they are inside , I don't ask who their spouses are

[TacoGrl]

No, they don't say "Hi my name is --- and I am gay"...however, it does come up early in the conversation and I just don't see why it has to...sometimes it almost seems like they want to get a reaction. Generalization? I agree...I base my comments on those I have met and the majority of those fall into my previous comments...although some do go through life not hating/looking for a reaction and are productive individuals who get respect through their actions not their words.

As for your stats...agreed...you can also apply them to fat people and coloured people. I am fat...I get discriminated against every day...I don't get jobs...I don't get dates...I get laughed at in public...I used to get beat up in school...now, I rely on my personality and other talents to draw the focus away and am usually quite a happy person. Other fat people commit suicide...self mutilate...the list goes on. It is all in how you handle yourself.

Again, my point is...Why does it matter what your sexuality is? Why is it made into such a big deal?

[ancientgirl]

There is obviously still way too much discrimination of the gay culture. I think it's a shame to judge people simply because of who they choose to love and want to share your life with.

As far as laws go, we are all required to pay taxes, we should all have the same rights. It makes me angry that laws against gay people marrying are really based on a religious belief!

[Macomom]

Hetrosexuality is the invisible assumption. No one ever says "Hi, here I am and I am hetro" because it is assumed they are. This is evident in all popular media, rights given to families, etc.
Further evidenced by the silent taboo of language, being hetro is not a common slander, the way children will call each other "gay or faggot".
So no, hetros don't have to announce who they are because the world assumes they are.

Why would someone like kd lang discuss her sexuality when people just want to hear her sing? No one can know because we are not her, but here are some thoughts...

- Most producers and record execs probably told her to grow her hair, sex it up and hide her "preferences" or she would never sell records- then she did.

-Enormous pressure from her friends and colleagues to use her platform to educate people. This is the exact same pressure that might come if you were raised in poverty and wanted to discuss this, were adopted, were the victem of a crime such as sexual assault, etc. Fame can do amazing things to help people- why wouldn't she say she was a lesbian?

-Perhaps she had a wife or girlfriend who deserved respect in the press, or the ability to sit in the front seat the way Trudie Styler can, or Dr. Phil's wife Robyn

-It influenced her music, maybe she had songs she wanted to sing which were not the typical boy meets girl crap

I can keep going and going and going, but there are a few things I know for sure. The music industry is cut throat for women, more so for gay women. People may not want to hear that you are gay, or ethnic, or religious, or feminist or suffer from illness or see that you are fat, too skinny, tattooed...

I was proud of kd lang for telling us that she was gay.
She is being true to herself, honest to her audience and leading a whole life. If people don't want to hear her politics, then turn her off. I however, will buy her books, read her interviews and visit her websites.
She is a sum of her parts, all of them.

and boy, she is damn cute to boot!

[Frenchy]

Originally Posted by TacoGrl

Why is it made into such a big deal?

That's weird that you have met people so open , I find that , well , my friends anyway , took kinda of a while before they would feel comfy enough with me to tell me about it.

One of my male friend even waited 10 years to come out and tell me and was homosexual ! That saddened me , that he felt he couldn't tell people around him.

[ancientgirl]

Originally Posted by TacoGrl

As for your stats...agreed...you can also apply them to fat people and coloured people. I am fat...I get discriminated against every day...I don't get jobs...I don't get dates...I get laughed at in public...I used to get beat up in school...now, I rely on my personality and other talents to draw the focus away and am usually quite a happy person. Other fat people commit suicide...self mutilate...the list goes on. It is all in how you handle yourself.

Again, my point is...Why does it matter what your sexuality is? Why is it made into such a big deal?

I've seen many people who have had good friends, often lose friendships when they have come out. I think making a big deal about it, telling people you are gay from the get go, is possibly just to let the other person know simply because there is so much discrimination.

I'm fat too. But, I can go out and adopt a kid if I wanted to, even though I'm single. A gay couple may not find it as easy. If I don't get a job because I'm fat, or get dates, well, I can lose weight. I can't imagine having to hide who I really am, just because someone might not like my sexual orientation.

[aslan]

the ladies have pretty much answered for me and i thank them. TG imagine growing up and being told you must be gay, marry a woman(assuming your female). You'll have no rights, etc, etc..that's what i grew up with,,you must marry a man, have 2.5 kids,(still trying to figure out how you have half a kid). and all the other niceness that comes with being hetro. I came out to my parents at 16yrs of age and was promptly thrown out of the house.

what does intrigue me is you seem to take this topic personally. I also prefer the phrase overweight not fat. my two older sisters are both overweight..now in some situations it is genetic, some is an eating disorder, some is just plain old eating far too much crap. the first two you can't do anything about and i feel for those people. If you fall under one of those catagories then you should understand how we feel being made fun of, insulted because of something you can't change..but i don't know of anyone beaten to death for being overweight.

[marko]

I like the tone of this thread. Hot but civil

[14+kitties]

I am not gay. (DUH!) I am a slightly overweight, very short 50+ year old woman who was sexually abused at 10 years old by an uncle for six months. Does it change the way I treat people? You're damned right!! My life was changed in a heartbeat because my uncle "chose" to molest me. I don't hide the fact that he abused me. He was the sick one, not me. However, it defined me for a long time. I didn't realize it. When I did (somewhere in my late 30's) I worked very hard to change the way I lived my life. I tried to become a nicer, more likeable person. That includes me opening my eyes to a lot of other people's plights.
You don't "choose" to be gay. You don't "choose" to be anything other than a loving, caring person. We can "choose" to let others live their lives peacefully from this day forward. We all deserve that.

[marko]

I dunno aslan... kids can be pretty cruel to gay kids, fat kids any kid that's different.... That's where a lot of this stuff starts....from a parent's mouth right into a child's brain.

[Macomom]

Originally Posted by 14+kitties

I am not gay. (DUH!) I am a slightly overweight, very short 50+ year old woman who was sexually abused at 10 years old by an uncle for six months. Does it change the way I treat people? You're damned right!! My life was changed in a heartbeat because my uncle "chose" to molest me. I don't hide the fact that he abused me. He was the sick one, not me. However, it defined me for a long time. I didn't realize it. When I did (somewhere in my late 30's) I worked very hard to change the way I lived my life. I tried to become a nicer, more likeable person. That includes me opening my eyes to a lot of other people's plights.
You don't "chose" to be gay. You don't "chose" to be anything other than a loving, caring person. We can "chose" to let others live their lives peacefully from this day forward. We all deserve that.

I just wanted to say this is a great post.

[aslan]

Originally Posted by marko

I dunno aslan... kids can be pretty cruel to gay kids, fat kids any kid that's different.... That's where a lot of this stuff starts....from a parent's mouth right into a child's brain.

i said that earlier Marko, i see it with my nephew all the time. Atleast now the law is doing something about it. a family just had their children taken away from them for promoting racism.

14+

[Frenchy]

Originally Posted by 14+kitties

I tried to become a nicer, more likeable person.

and you are

ditto on : people don't choose to be gay , like we don't choose to have brown or blue eyes it's how we're born !

[bendyfoot]

Originally Posted by TacoGrl

You say "Gay is what we are not who we are"...fine then, why does it always seem to be the main focus in what gay people do/say? It seems that people know people are gay because they tell us in the first 30 secs of meeting us...we don't care.

Here's the thing TacoGrl...those of us who are not heterosexual live in a world where we are ASSUMED to be hetero. With VERY few exceptions, every single song on the radio, ad in a magazine or on a billboard, and tv show screams HI WE'RE STRAIGHT AND YOU'RE NOT ONE OF US.

Every straight couple on the street can walk holding hands, or give eachother a peck on the cheek before parting...or hell, even make out if they feel like it (ew, PDA) People I work with talk about their spouses/boy/girlfriends all the time...because they're important people in their lives. Just as my partner is important in mine.

People see my wedding band and ask me about my "husband". Or they don't see the band and ask me if I have a "boyfriend". My partner is suddenly invisible, and I am made invisible, and awkwardness ensues, and I am put in a position where I now have to out myself and explain the situation.

So, TacoGrl, if you think people are being "too open" about things, simply by mentioning they're gay or mentioning their partner...well, it's very likely that, like me, we a) don't want that yucky feeling of being invisible or b) want to take control of any potentially awkward situations of accidental "outing" by just getting it in the open right away.

The comments I made were not to hurt...they were the facts in what started a downward spiral for someone who was good at what they did...the PETA thing added to how that someone was already perceived from previous actions and away from mainstream she went. It was how she expressed it...the things she said about those who didn't really care either way...didn't really see why she was making such a big deal out of something that wasn't a big deal...something no one really cared about...most people said "what a beautiful voice" not "what a lesbian" and they bought her tapes/went to her concerts without a thought of her sexuality...until she started making people feel bad for not focussing on her "plight" as she perceived it...I was too busy enjoying her music to care...until it got to be too much drama.

The fact that YOu or other people were uncomfortable with it doesn't make her actions wrong. It's like saying, "Gee, when black students demanded to be allowed into a white-only school, it made people angry and uncomfortable, so they really shouldn't have done it." Do you not see the parallel?

Why exactly does sexuality even have to come into the picture anyway? Everyone has a talent and I don't really care what you do in bed...I don't go around "Hey I am hetro, love me or I'll sue you"...I don't have parades "celebrating" my sexuality...I and a lot of others just don't see the reason for all the hub-bub...you are who you are...enjoy life!

You may not have parades, but you have the right to publicly display your love for your opposite-sex partner without fear of being beaten up or killed. You may not have parades, but you have every media outlet reinforcing your relationship as being "normal". You may not have parades, but you can have your relationship recognized by the law, and religious institutions.

One day of celebration of the hard-won gay rights, one day of celebration of NOT having to live in fear or in the closet because many people before us took the beatings and were thrown in jail and outcast...but they survived and fought back and made it easier for the rest of us...one day of being comfy walking down the street holding your loved one's hand....well, quite frankly my dear, get over it. It's not hurting anyone.

Originally Posted by TacoGrl

Again, my point is...Why does it matter what your sexuality is? Why is it made into such a big deal?

Frankly, it's a big deal because there are millions of people like you who tell us every day that it doesn't matter, and that we should just shut up about it.

Those of us who hated ourselves because of the way we were born are not willing to be silent just because it might make a few people uncomfortable.

[bendyfoot]

Originally Posted by marko

I dunno aslan... kids can be pretty cruel to gay kids, fat kids any kid that's different.... That's where a lot of this stuff starts....from a parent's mouth right into a child's brain.

I completely agree Marko...I was teased for years in grade school and high school, long before I was even aware of my orientation and certainly long before I was out of the closet.

Children can indeed be cruel, and it can have a lasting effect on people, no matter WHAT the reason for the bullying. What's sad is that adults seem to carry this cruel behaviour on and persist in putting down others because of their differences. I have a hard time understanding how ANYone who was picked on as a child could possible put down another human being for being the way they are...knowing full well the hurt that it causes.

[aslan]

bendy all i can say to that is.

[Frenchy]

Can I add that , about the gay parade , why not ? we have also now "women's day" (la journée de la femme) so everybody is getting their day

[bendyfoot]

Originally Posted by Macomom

Hetrosexuality is the invisible assumption. No one ever says "Hi, here I am and I am hetro" because it is assumed they are. This is evident in all popular media, rights given to families, etc.
Further evidenced by the silent taboo of language, being hetro is not a common slander, the way children will call each other "gay or faggot".
So no, hetros don't have to announce who they are because the world assumes they are.

Bingo.

I can keep going and going and going, but there are a few things I know for sure. The music industry is cut throat for women, more so for gay women. People may not want to hear that you are gay, or ethnic, or religious, or feminist or suffer from illness or see that you are fat, too skinny, tattooed...

Excellent point. It's not just heterosexuality that's being "pushed" in mainstream music, it's an entirely unreasonable portrayal of women in general. kd refused to conform to many of these; it was ground-breaking for MANY types of women, not "just" gay ones.


I was proud of kd lang for telling us that she was gay.
She is being true to herself, honest to her audience and leading a whole life. If people don't want to hear her politics, then turn her off. I however, will buy her books, read her interviews and visit her websites.
She is a sum of her parts, all of them.

and boy, she is damn cute to boot!

[aslan]

i'm not sure why there would be an issue with the pride parade..I can't speak for any other city but in toronto pride week brings in more money to the city in one week than some business's make in months( gays like eating in restaurants, and nice hotels). the santa claus parade is funded by the city and business's, carabana has been running in the red for aslong as i can remember and is gov't funded..pride is totally self sufficient, it has been running in the black for many years and it DOESN'T get gov't funding.

durring two garbage strikes the gay community was the only clean part of the city as the pride committee hired private contractors to remove the garbage..If you ever see the parade. over 1 million people attend, the street is covered in confetti and stuff, within hours of the parade ending yonge st is spotless, once again paid for by the pride committee..and i must add unlike carabana there has never been one shooting incident.

[BenMax]

Interesting thread, but very sad at the same time.

I am not white (surprise, surprise!!). I am of mixed origin but asked constantly 'where do you come from'. My answer: 'the womb'.

I am straight, not because I choose to be straight - I was born that way and I cannot alter my attraction - it's impossible. But - I never been in position to explain my sexual orientation until I hang out with my friend who 'may be'! Yes she 'fits' that sterotypical description of being 'masculine', tall, deeper voice, attractive but not cutsey. I have known her for years and we don't have those girlie talks. She never mentions anything about her personal life...then again why should she?

But - I am now 'guilty' by 'association'. Funny. So I am a colored chick that people think is gay..... To be honest, I don't even bother saying otherwise. I enjoy her company, her passion for life, and not to mention her generous and gentle heart for all living things. I am proud to walk, talk and be in her company. I refuse to explain anything to anyone.

She is my very best friend. I love her so much for who she is...period. I do not feel compelled to ask her about her sexual orientation because in the big picture - who care? What would it change?

She has never asked me about my ethnic background, nor my sexual orientation. It just was never a topic of discussion.

I aswell went through and sometimes still go through prejudice. Being told 'oh I am not talking about you because you are the 'good kind'. Good kind of what? Indian? Mix breed?

All I have to say (which came from another bisexual friend of mine was...)..'if you find love, regardless of which sex it comes from, then you are that much richer than those that are closed to it. If you are loved once in your life...then who cares where it comes from, or what form.' Another wise and gorgeous person I will always cherish in my life.

In this day and age it saddens me to know end that there is a reason to justify who we are.

Aslan - I met you and I absolutely ADORE who you are. You my dear friend are a wonderful human being that I am so darn honored to have met.

[marko]

I have a hard time understanding how ANYone who was picked on as a child could possible put down another human being for being the way they are...knowing full well the hurt that it causes

we humans...very very flawed.
It's really that simple imo. We have an innate tendency to want to be better than the next person. We compete; it's in our genes. 'Competing' against someone different by making them feel bad with words is a sad type of competition though.

Despite all the advancements for gay people.... I'd expect another couple of generations (60 years) to pass before being gay is a non-issue in the western world.

[bendyfoot]

Originally Posted by Frenchy

Can I add that , about the gay parade , why not ? we have also now "women's day" (la journée de la femme) so everybody is getting their day

A quick search of parades in Toronto:

Carabana parade (Caribbean countries)
St. Patrick's day parade (Irish)
Warrior's Day parade (veterans)
Easter Parade (Christians)
Mardi Gras Parade (New Orleans/Cajun)
Chinese New Year Parade (Chinese)

Even freaking SANTA gets a parade

How come none of THOSE are offensive? I mean, what's the big deal? Why is it so important to them to celebrate who they are? They really should just get over it and stop making such a big deal of it.

[aslan]

Originally Posted by BenMax

Aslan - I met you and I absolutely ADORE who you are. You my dear friend are a wonderful human being that I am so darn honored to have met.

omg you actually brought tears to my eyes. does this mean you wont hit me anymore. i have to say i bow down to all of the work you do for our furry friends and love you to death..

oh side note kd is an animal advocate too.

[bendyfoot]

I just want to add one other "food for thought":

one reason that I am completely out (with family, friends, at work), is because I want to set a positive example, especially for young people.

I remember when I was first coming to grips with my sexuality. I spent a lot of time searching for other people "like me" so I wouldn't feel so isolated.

Sometimes I would discover that a celebrity whose work I already enjoyed (kd would be one, Micheal Stipe from REM is another that I remember) was openly gay/queer. It would make me smile, and think "YES!!! There ARE people like me! And they're successful and happy!"

You see, because the rest of society tends to either put down queers or make them invisible, young people have few positive role models to look up to. All they hear is the bad stuff, and it's frightening. These celebrities who are out make it easier and safer for others; it's a selfless act.

So me, I'm out. By NOT being invisible, and by showing the world that I am happy, loved, supported by friends and family, likeable, successful, and intelligent...and that I've made good choices in my life to get me where I am today...(oh, and btw also gay)...I like to think that it might change some minds about what it means "to be gay" or what gay people "are like" (which is such a weird concept to me...no two gay people are the same)...and also that it might allow young, scared, closeted people to feel like they don't need to be frightened, they don't have to be a certain "way" or fit a certain stereotype; simply that they can continue being who they are and make their own choices in life.

[bendyfoot]

Originally Posted by aslan

The main thing i want to correct is....it is not a preference or a choice. .

Ok, so one other tiny thing, then I'll shut up:

aslan raised this, and it's an important point. MANY people seem to use the terms "sexual preference" or "lifestyle". As aslan pointed out, being queer is not a choice, OR a lifestyle, it's how a person was born.

The only choice is whether or not one is honest with themselves and the people in their lives; whether they choose to live a lie or come out and live openly and truthfully.

SO, all that to say, a MUCH better way to say it is: "sexual orientation".

That is all. Edumacating over.