#31
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Alright well he's switching over to L&R now, seems to like it, spits out his Wellness kibble because he wants to eat only the new ones But then he must eat them because there is nothing else left. So I am thinking about the higher proteins you were talking about and was wondering what you thought of Orijen? More precisely, what you think of this:
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Is 90C low enough to accommodate proteins that are not in "meal" form? Because their first ingredient is not in "meal" form. Also, is 1.6% calcium too high? I notice most foods are 1.4%. Quote:
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Last edited by worrier; March 25th, 2007 at 02:37 AM. |
#32
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Orijen is much better than Acana. Both foods have been discussed many times here in the food forum. I'll see if I can find some threads for you.
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#33
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be comparable. So as far as high protein foods to supplement his Canidae with, what are some that are on the same level or better than Orijen? Here are some other ones that I could probably get my friends to ship here routinely: Quote:
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http://firstmate.com/platinum/holisticnew.htm either that one or any others on that site that are good Thank you guys for taking the time to help, if my little one only knew, he would give you endless licks (well maybe not, but he'd definitely choose you when deciding who to bring his stick/ball/squirrel to). Last edited by worrier; March 25th, 2007 at 12:21 AM. |
#34
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Innova EVO or Go Natural Grain Free.
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#35
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Go! Natural Grain Free is my vote! Although the quality of ingredients vary little between Go! Grain Free and Chicken Fruit and Vegetables, the amount of meat protien does. This is the same for Acana/Orijen. One is moderate meat, the other higher.
On second thought if your wife is a vegetarian, maybe the Salmon! Last edited by gypsy_girl; March 25th, 2007 at 12:27 AM. Reason: adding |
#36
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Is there a thread debating feeding a mix of low and high protein foods vs. feeding just high protein? Prin, you said earlier in this thread that you use the former method, is that because of the research you've done or because that is what works well for your particular dogs? If what is best for him is a combination of low and high protein foods, I want to find the best of both, that is why I am posting both 21%-26% protein foods and the 40%+ ones. |
#37
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There is no hard and fast rule for the perfect food. Sometimes the most spectacular food just doesn't work for your dog. Some dogs are easy and anything works but more likely there will be one food that is just a little bit better for your animal. Pick a few good ones that you are comfortable with and try them.
Some dogs do great on high protein and some dogs get bad coats and funny poops. There does seem to be a lot of people here mixing high and low because ideally we'd like something in between the 22-26% and the 40%+.
__________________
"Never doubt that a small, group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has." - Margaret Mead |
#38
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If you want something in between try Timberwolf Organics Wild & Natural.....it's 36% protein. Or, there's a new one I recently heard about called Great Life....it's 34 or 36% protein.
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#39
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In case you're wondering about Great Life here's the info.....it ranges from 33% to 38.12% protein:
From www.1doctorschoice.com ...... GREAT LIFE GRAIN/POTATO-FREE DOG FOOD FOR THE NEXT GENERATION Made with Natural and Organic Ingredients No Corn, Rice, By-Products, Chicken Meal, Turkey Meal, Fish Meal, Hormones, Pesticides, Steroids, Soy, Rendered Meat, Antibiotics, Allergy Free Full Active Healthy Nutrition So what’s the big deal with dogs and cats eating potatoes and grain—humans do that every day! For the past fifty years, commercial pet food companies have assured us their pet foods are "nutritionally complete and balanced," or "scientifically balanced." They tell us these statements are formulated on study after study. Most of these foods are grain based—whole wheat, barley, oats, corn meal, or rice, with added synthetic vitamins and minerals. The latest trend in pet foods is the addition of potatoes. We love potatoes so why would we deny them to our pets? Because they contain a carcinogen—acrylamide--and as a daily maintenance food, potatoes are not a health food! The August 14, 2002, issue of the Journal of Agricultural and Food Chemistry, reported that researchers at Stockholm University had evidence of the presence of high levels of acrylamide in carbohydrate rich foods like potatoes. Acrylamide induces gene mutations and has been found in animal tests to cause malignant stomach tumors. It is also known to cause damage to the central and peripheral nervous system. This can be a major reason for the dramatic increase in cancer and other health problems. We have come to believe all of the propaganda surrounding the advertising campaigns of the large corporate pet food companies. The visual effects are stunning—a gorgeous dog running across fields with the sun glistening on its coat! Wow! But recently, a growing number of pet owners have begun to question the corporate pet food giants. Yes, the foods will sustain life but what quality of life and at what veterinary costs? The majority of pet companies utilize potatoes in their pet foods including veterinarian brand foods. To help you take your pets back to an age when they were lean, healthy, and active from eating nature’s perfect GRAIN-FREE diet, we have created Great Life’s Grain/Potato-Free Diet for dogs and cats. As with our other pet foods, we have a unique process that allows us to bring you the raw foods your pets crave layered on a grain free kibble enclosed in wild salmon and organic coconut oil. NO refrigeration needed. Look at the ingredients and you’ll agree this food will help your pet live a longer, happier and healthier life. Wholistic Kibble Ingredients: We start with a base of free-range chicken, beef or buffalo or wild caught salmon and beef (cats). We use USDA human grade quality meats that do not contain rendered meats, hormones, pesticides or antibiotics. To these, we add the following: Tapioca: a starch from the fleshy root of the cassava, made into"flour" contains calcium and small amounts of minerals. Jicama: a legume grown for its large root is used as a starch. Jicama, a very good source of fiber, also contains potassium, and is high in vitamin C Yams: starchy rhizomes containing good amounts of vitamin B6, potassium, and other nutrients. Yams contain a unique fat-like substance called diosgenin, which is classified as a hormone-like molecule and is currently being studied for its potential anti-cancer effects. Pumpkin: low in calories and fat, pumpkin contains a wide variety of vitamins and minerals, plus lots of vitamin A, carotenoids, and is an excellent source of fiber and helps expel worms. Peas: are bursting with nutrients--8 vitamins, 7 minerals, dietary fiber and protein. These nutrients help support the energy-producing cells and systems of the body. Chicken Fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols): Dogs require fat in their diet for energy, as building blocks for hormones, and for a healthy nervous system. Chicken fat is an excellent fat because it is easily digested and contains good amounts of essential linoleic fatty acids and Omega 3 fatty acids. These essential fatty acids are involved in the body’s response to inflammation, swelling, redness, and itching. Flaxseeds: are abundant in omega 3 fatty acids, which are needed to produce flexible cell membranes. The body uses these fatty acids to form substances that offer protection against heart disease, diabetes, and cancer. They are also important to the skin and coat and provide important fiber. Sun cured Alfalfa Meal: Alfalfa provides essential vitamins and minerals and is commonly used to detoxify the body, to help ease inflammation, and balance hormones. It is soothing to the digestive tract, improves the appetite and aids in nutrient assimilation. Blueberries: are one of the richest sources of antioxidant phytonutrients protecting the body and brain from oxidative stress. Cranberries: a cousin to the blueberry, they are unique in their ability to protect and treat the urinary tract and other mucous membranes against infections by preventing the adhesion of pathogens. Kelp: This sea vegetable contains almost every mineral and trace mineral necessary for the health of mammals; it also contains amino acids and vitamins. Kelp boosts the immune system, regulates the glands, promotes regular heat cycles, supports motility of male semen, promotes a healthy coat, and detoxifies the body. Eggs: are a great source of easily digested protein, and choline. Choline is a key component of acetylcholine. A neurotransmitter that carries messages from and to nerves, acetylcholine is the body's primary chemical means of communication between nerves and muscles. The pesticides and herbicides in common use are designed to destroy this neurotransmitter in insects but it can carry over to other species. Eggs are a rich source of lutein, a carotenoid thought to help prevent cataracts, and a source of B-vitamins, including vitamin B12. Mangosteen: is a Southeast Asian fruit that has been used to relieve skin conditions, treat allergies, support the nervous system, as well as the cardiovascular system; aids in treating urinary and digestive problems. It is rich in phytoceuticals and antioxidants plus vitamins and minerals. Reishi Mushroom: (Ganoderma lucidum) has been used in oriental medicine for thousands of years. Recent studies suggest reishi has beneficial action in treating diabetes mellitus, anti-tumor effect, and high blood pressure. In Japan, it is used as cardiotonic to treat circulatory problems. It has anti-allergenic properties because it inhibits release of histamine, which causes the body’s allergic reaction. Turkey Tail: and its immune-enhancing activities have been extensively studied in Japan since mid 1970's; over 300 clinical studies have been conducted. The active constituent, PSP (polysaccharide peptide), is currently gaining respect for its effectiveness against tumors both in laboratory experiments and in clinical studies. Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center in New York, and the M.D. Anderson Cancer Center in Houston, both recommend this mushroom as a supplement for chemo patients. Turkey tail it is also gaining recognition for its remarkable anti-aging qualities, and its use as an anti-virus and anti-inflammatory in the treatment of infection and inflammation of the upper respiratory, urinary and digestive tracts, including liver ailments, hepatitis B and chronic active hepatitis. Artichoke: Artichokes are nutrient dense with 16 essential nutrients! One of these, cynarin, a compound found in the leaves, demonstrates benefits to the liver; silymarin, another compound found in artichokes has powerful antioxidant properties and is believed to help the liver regenerate healthy tissue. Artichokes provide the important minerals magnesium, chromium, manganese, potassium, phosphorus, iron and calcium. In addition to all these important minerals, artichokes are a good source of fiber. Garlic: Whole volumes have been written about this nutrient rich food with anti-inflammatory, anti-bacterial and anti-viral activities. Garlic also contains good amounts of vitamin C, vitamin B6, selenium, manganese and other minerals. Parsley is a storehouse of nutrients including vitamins A, B, C and E, potassium, iron, magnesium, chlorophyll, and organic sulfur. The flavanoids and volatile oil components of parsley help the body resist infection, neutralize some carcinogens and help stop the multiplication of tumor cells. The volatile oils – particularly myristicin – have been shown to inhibit tumor formation in animal studies and to aid the body in using enzymes. Parsley assists the bladder, thyroid gland, kidneys, liver, and lungs. The flavanoids in parsley – especially luteolin – have been shown to function as antioxidants. In addition to these unique compounds, parsley contains vitamin C, beta-carotene, and folic acid. It cleanses the blood, stimulates the digestive system, maintains healthy skin, helps expel worms, and refreshes the breath. What a powerhouse leafy green plant this is! Kale: is a leafy green vegetable rich in health promoting, sulfur-containing phytochemicals, carotenoids, pro-vitamin A, vitamin C, vitamin B6, minerals including calcium, and plant fiber. Organic Coconut Oil which helps regulate thyroid function, fights immune diseases, is anti-viral, antibacterial, and antiprotozoal (giardia); helps an animal to destroy lipid coated viruses and various pathogenic bacteria. Coconut oil is a digestive aid, especially important for inflammatory bowel disorders. As an antioxidant, it is 50 times more potent than Vitamin E, 15 times more potent than carrots, and 300 times more potent than tomatoes. Wild Salmon Oil contains a wealth of essential fatty acids that benefit the heart and circulatory system, as well as nervous system development, immune system function and skin and coat. Why "wild salmon?" A 2004 study published in the journal Science showed levels of contaminants such as PCBs, dioxins, dieldrin, toxaphene and other pesticides, were significantly higher in farmed salmon than in their wild counterparts; we use only WILD salmon oil. Dog Food Flavors: Chicken: Raw Food: Freeze dried chicken, freeze dried chicken liver, ground chicken necks, fresh bok choy, inulin, green tripe, fresh mixed baby sprouts, coral calcium + 74 trace minerals, active pre & probiotics, full spectrum of digestive enzymes, enclosed in wild salmon and organic coconut oil Wholistic Kibble Whole chicken. tapioca, jicama, yams, pumpkin, peas, chicken fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols), flaxseed, suncured alfalfa meal, blueberries, cranberries, kelp, eggs, mangosteen, reishi mushroom, turkey tail, artichoke, garlic, parsley, kale, full spectrum chelated minerals and vitamins. Buffalo: Raw Food: Freeze dried buffalo, freeze dried buffalo liver, freeze dried ground buffalo bone, fresh bok choy, inulin, green tripe, fresh mixed baby sprouts, coral calcium + 74 trace minerals, active pre & probiotics, full spectrum digestive enzymes all enclosed in wild salmon and organic coconut oil. Wholistic Kibble: Buffalo meat, tapioca, jicama, yams, pumpkin, peas, chicken fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols), flaxseed, suncured alfalfa meal, blueberries, cranberries, kelp, eggs, mangosteen reishi mushroom, turkey tail, artichoke, garlic, parsley, kale. full spectrum chelated minerals and vitamins. (Buffalo is a very clean, leaner, meat source with no known health problems. It is a good food for dogs with allergies.) Analysis Buffalo Protein 33% Fat 17.77% Fiber max 4% Moisture 10% max D.E. CAL/LB 1723 Chicken Protein 38.12% Fat less than 20% Fiber 4% Max. Moisture 10% max D.E. CAL/LB 1812 Lamb Protein 33% Fat less than 17% Fiber max 4% Moiture 10% max D.E. CAL/LB 1793 We feel this is the maximum amount of protein an animal shoud receive. Higher protein counts may lead to Constipation, Crystals, Irritable Bowel Syndrome, Blood Toxicity, Organ Damage. |
#40
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And, here's the ingredients for Timberwolf Organics Wild & Natural:
Wild & Natural Dry™ Canid Formula Ingredients: Chicken Meal, Fresh Chicken, Chicken Fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols and rosemary extract), Low Ash Salmon Meal, Potatoes, Sardine/Mackerel/Anchovy/Tuna Oils (preserved with mixed tocopherols and rosemary extract) Eggs, Dried Chicken Liver, Dried Whole Milk, Dried Whey Extract, Kelp, Alfalfa Leaf, Casein, DL – Methionine, Potassium Chloride, Lecithin, Taurine, Lysine, Carnitine, Choline Chloride, Creatine, Probiotics: (Lactobacillus Acidophilus Fermentation Product, Bifidobacterium Thermophilum Fermentation, Bifidobacterium Longum Fermentation Product, Enterbacter Faecium Fermentaion Product, Bacillus Subtillus Fermentation Product, Blueberries, Cranberries, Mixed Tocopherols (a source of vitamin E), Zinc Proteinate, Iron Proteinate, Manganese Amino Acid Chelate, Thiamine, Niacin, Vitamin A Supplement, Calcium Pantothenate, Riboflavin Supplement, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Iodine Proteinate, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Biotin, Folic Acid, Pyridoxine (a source of vitamin B6), Cobalt Proteinate, Papain, Yucca Schidigera Extract. Protein: 36% Fat: 18% Fiber: 2.5% Moisture: 9% ASH: 5% Kcal/kg: 3,980 OMEGA-6 FATTY ACIDS: 3.4% OMEGA-3 FATTY ACIDS: 1.2% CALCIUM: 1.4% PHOSPHOROUS: 1.1 VITAMIN A: 22,000 IU/KG VITAMIN D: 1,200 IU/KG VITAMIN E: 350 IU/KG COPPER: 16mg/KG |
#41
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Thank you so much, I will look into these as well. I love how there are only two main ingredients and they are chicken meal and chicken! Is 2.5% fiber ok? I seem to see 3 or 4% usually. I have a lot of research to do over the next few weeks.
ps. this is concerning me: Quote:
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Last edited by worrier; March 25th, 2007 at 03:48 AM. |
#42
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The calcium is ok in the high protein foods as long as it's not for a puppy. With calcium, you have to take into account the phosphorus. As long as they're in the right ratio together, it's ok.
For the fiber, if you're using the high protein as a supplement, then it doesn't matter so much (might firm up the stool a little), but if you feed it alone, you just have to watch for constipation. It happens sometimes, but when my two were on high protein alone, they never had a problem. Whole chicken, is whole chicken. Not dehydrated or anything. Orijen, I believe, is not at all part of the recall. Neither is Solid Gold (they have a high protein food too). |
#43
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Last edited by worrier; March 25th, 2007 at 12:59 PM. |
#44
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Yeah, I think it's lower. Most extruders are flaming hot..
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#45
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another one...
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#46
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Is that Fromm? Fromm is ok... That food's a little grainy though.
Pearled Barley, Oatmeal, (Sweet Potato), Brown Rice, White Rice, [...] Millet, |
#47
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yea looked grainy even to me
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#48
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My post from the Penny thread:
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edit: Maybe this other TO to mix it with? Quote:
Last edited by worrier; March 26th, 2007 at 01:08 AM. |
#49
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Timberwolf is going to have to advise where they're products are produced before I'll try them. I know lot's of people like their food and trust it, but I get uneasy when a company won't let you know where there stuff is being produced in light of the problems with food lately.
Cindy |
#50
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Alright, well I think I'm going to try and do the 1/2 and 1/2 thing with the Ocean Blue and the Wild & Natural. I'm going to leave him on the Canidae L&R for a week or so to see if he has that flax allergy and then start the switch (I'm thinking now it might have been a little beef he ate he never gets beef, but I gave him some the day before yesterday because I was worried about him getting almost no protein .
So anyone that has experienced negative results on TO, you better speak up!! lol. Prin, Rainbow, other food gurus, what do you guys think? I'm excited that he will be grain-free! Hopefully, all will go well. Again, thank you guys so much for your help and patience, I realize now I could have searched for a lot of the info you provided. So yeah, tank you! :love: Last edited by worrier; March 26th, 2007 at 11:53 AM. |
#51
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I think the TO Ocean Blue and Wild & Natural is an excellent choice. I'm sure he will love it. Make sure you add it slowly to the Canidae L & R to switch him.
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#52
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Cindy, I posted what I found out here: http://www.pets.ca/forum/showthread....d=1#post399039 |
#53
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One last question before I go out and get all this TO
All this talk of higher proteins... I just want to make sure you guys know that my guy is a little guy, not a big guy. He's a 20 pound terrier mutterbutter (Cairn/Fox/some others probably), so this higher protein stuff is ok for small breeds? I have been finding so much conflicting info online. Most things I read say he should be eating 25-28%. With this new combo he will be going up from 22% (the Wellness he was on) to 31% (the two TO's combined, 26 and 36). Maybe I should take him up to 26% first, and see how he is? I think that would be smart, but my childish giddiness is wanting him to be as healthy as possible ASAP, after all, a few weeks of their lives is like a few months of ours. |
#54
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some more questions...
1. Looking over the ingredients in Wild&Natural once more I saw that it has CREATINE in it! Is this good for dogs? I would never give a human creatine. 2. Is it ok to feed 3 kinds of kibble at the same time if I am phasing one out and switching to a diet that comprises of 2 different ones? Last edited by worrier; March 27th, 2007 at 07:12 AM. |
#55
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Thanks Rainbow, I did see that thread and it didn't really make me feel any better about the Timberwolf brand. I think a lot of people have really noticed Timberwolf hiding behind that proprietary information shield, kudo's to whoever for finding out where their stuff is produced. They may have an excellent food, it may be the best on the market, but being secretive about who produces your product isn't going to win people over. Recipies and production methods can be proprietary to an extent, but not who produces your product for you IMO.
I'm really leaning towards the Orijen brand for my new pups....I like their ingredients and the analysis of those ingredients. They seem to be pretty forthcoming with how their product is produced as well. I switched the cats over to the feline version and they're loving it. This site has been a great help on giving me the information on good foods and what ingredients to look for in a quality food for both cats and dogs. I've had dogs and cats for many years and while I wasn't feeding them some of the worst foods out there, I certainly could have been feeding them much better ones. I thank you all for opening my eyes to healthier eating for my furry friends Even the raccoons and possums that come to the dishes at night are getting fed the best now. Cindy |
#56
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http://www.pets.ca/forum/showpost.ph...8&postcount=91 |
#57
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So, temporarily I'm looking away from wild&Natural because of the creatine, but I'm still thikning "okay well the Ocean Blue one still looks good." Now I notice this: Quote:
grrr. |
#58
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Don't know what the point of creatinine is other than to bump up the muscle tone to make the food look good...
For the calcium/protein ratio, it's supposed to be around 1.2-2:1 calcium to phosphorus. I would just switch to one kibble and then introduce the second one later, once the dog has adjusted to the first one. |
#59
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I think I have decided to feed kibble in the morning (Ocean Blue possibly/maybe mixed with a little Canidae) and then raw turkey breast (boneless, skinless, boiled for 10 seconds to kill bacteria for the human sake) diced up with some veggies (maybe) and a little kibble (maybe) and all his supplements (fish oil, primrose, probiotics) in the evening after his run. How does that sound? Last edited by worrier; March 28th, 2007 at 09:31 PM. |
#60
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I'd put the probiotics in with the kibble instead. But otherwise, everything sounds ok.
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