Nature's Variety

[Scott_B]

I know nothing of what you speak of

[Goldens4Ever]

I am part of a golden retriever forum & you would not believe how many people on that forum are in COMPLETE OPPOSITION of the foods we hold dear to us on this forum! The majority of the members are completely opposed to 'holistic' dog foods & are absolutely set on the foods we know are unhealthy (store brands, Purina, Iams, Science, Euk, etc.). They insist that what their vets and/or breeders sell/recommend is what's best. I am just in awe.....even when presented with facts about dog food ingredients, they refuse to allow themselves to think that perhaps they're wrong. Some people just don't want to know

A lot of people believe that if their dog has a shiny coat & no obvious allergies, than the food must be healthy........they don't understand that there's so much more to it than that! Further, the biggest arguement is that some of the people on this forum have is that these holistic companies don't have the long-term studies that other companies do (Purina, Iams, Science, Euk, etc.)& they don't want their dogs to be test rats for a food that hasn't been studied for a long period of time. They just don't get it; they are not concerned about the ingredients in their dogs' food at all, as long as the company has been around years. They have the mentality of, "well, if the food's so bad, then why has it been around for long & so many dogs have lived long lives on it?" Uuugghhh....

Oh yeah.....about Nature's Variety food. I don't like the Citric Acid either; however, I think that the "freeze-dried raw meat BIO-COATING" is pretty neat, although I am unsure about how much more healthy it actually makes the food....BIO-COATING versus non? Further, I don't know what the purpose of the Sea Salt is in their formula(s).

[Prin]

Yeah, no long term studies, eh? What do they think of Purina redoing a lot of their foods because their new research on protein levels proved the opposite of what they used to think was true?

A lot of old research is very flawed, unfortunately.

[Goldens4Ever]

Prin-

Do you have a website where I can read about that?

[technodoll]

Originally Posted by prin

I'm sure I can find a kibble again that does Jemma good things too. I KNOW IT!

prin, why not test something first... boil a batch of brown rice until it's nice and supersoft, and mash in a few cans of salmon with broth (from the dollar store) as well as some of your EFA oil, and add a few spoons of that to her EVO meals? i think it would work for her coat, dilute the Evo a bit, and add some extra nutrition without breaking the bank.... it can't hurt to try!

[Prin]

Yeah, but for some reason, giving her real salmon is making her have goopies. She's getting some freeze dried salmon as treats and it just isn't going well.)

Goldens4ever, I'll go look. It was posted here at one point.

[Prin]

Here's one thread about it, see post #2:
http://www.pets.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=30730

[Prin]

Here's the original article:
http://www.purina.ca/images/articles...ionProtein.pdf

[marine's girlie]

Originally Posted by technodoll

as cooking alters a meat's chemisty, you will often see this "phemomena". raw proteins are fine, but cook them and the dog is allergic - remember, nature did NOT build them to eat cooked foods and this is their body's way of protesting

i'm curious about this statement, if this is true for dogs then why isn't it true for people? my aunt is allergic to mushrooms and shellfish (among other things) and she can't eat either of these cooked or raw.
cooking at less than extreme temperatures may alter the conformation of the protein slightly (there are 4 things that constitute conformation) but it can't alter the primary structure or the arrangement of the amino acids, so it should still be recognizable. unless i totally misunderstood my metabolic biochemistry professor.
i don't think cooked foods are the pariah that people want them to be.

[Prin]

The temps that dog food is cooked at would definitely alter the protein structures, IMO (not much human food is cooked at that high a temp). Between that and the processes that the meat goes through to get to the food, it's no wonder all the foods need extra vitamins and supplements.

But yeah, I have heard that there are two food allergy tests out there- cooked and not.

[Scott_B]

Also dogs are dogs, not people. apples to oranges.

[LL1]

Dont feel bad Inverness,and I really dont think her post was meant to come across the way it may have seemed to you,the tone is hard to get sometimes on the internet and I think it was just misinterpreted.

Some people do make snide and sarcastic posts and I try to just ignore those.

[marine's girlie]

according to the research i've done lately, the average temperature for extruded foods is about 121C (250F), and there are human foods that are baked at much higher temperatures. i made an angel food cake on sunday and baked it at 350F and the stuffed mushrooms at 425F. i still don't buy the raw proteins are ok while cooked proteins are not bit. cooking may alter a quartenary or teritary structure, but i don't see how it can alter the sequence of amino acids which make up a protein, thus wouldn't the molecular weight remain the same?
i have never heard of there being a raw food and a cooked food allergy test, but i'll have to look into this.
between raw and commercial foods, each have their drawbacks and each have their positives. i have seen dogs do very well on a commerical diet, but poorly on a raw diet and vice versa.

[technodoll]

My understanding is that denatured (cooked) protein is more likely to be recognised as a foreign protein by the dog's body, which can cause an allergic reaction - while in humans it is the contrary. canines possess a very different inner anatomy than humans, they are designed by nature to eat, digest and process raw meat while we do better with cooked foods.

here is a wonderfully detailed, yet simple, explanation & outline: http://b-naturals.com/Sep2005.php

”The stomachs of dogs (and humans) make industrial strength hydrochloric acid that can dissolve iron. Dogs hold chewed food in their stomachs for 4 to 8 hours after ingestion. The low pH of the gastric juices provides a barrier to pathogens. Only a little food at a time is released in to the intestine, which it passes through quickly. This gives any bacteria that may live through the repeated acid baths little time to colonize and produce gastrointestinal distress.

In humans, on the other hand, the food may pass through the stomach into the intestines in as little as 30 to 60 minutes. The partially digested food may spend as long as 12 to 60 hours in the intestines before it is passed into the colon, and then defecated. This means that “the intestines suffer prolonged exposure to whatever germs survive a minimal aid wash in the stomach.”

This information demonstrates how dogs can easily digest raw meat and bones and have the ability to destroy harmful bacteria. Nature is wise in her design and provides protection for these carnivores in consuming prey, drinking pond water and eating food stuff contaminated with bacteria. Problems such as salmonella, E Coli and other food borne pathogens are skillfully handled by the extended time in the strongly acidic environment of the stomach. Any surviving pathogens have little opportunity to propagate during their quick transit time though the intestines.

[technodoll]

here you go: http://www.healthy-paws.ca/allergies.htm

Allergies & Nutrition, exactly what is the connection?
Jennifer Lennon

Will feeding a raw food diet help my pet’s allergies?

I will tell you that raw food will unquestionably help pets with allergies.

See, one of the problems with using kibble when dealing with allergies, is that there are SO MANY ingredients in the food, how can you properly identify what the troublesome food source is?

The second problem I have with kibble is that it's actually the processing of the food that is causing problems and usually not so much the food itself. That is not to say dog’s don’t have food allergies, they can and do. But I know people whose dogs were "allergic" to beef but once their systems were cleaned out with a proper raw diet, they could eat beef without incident. I will get into detail further along about mucous, as this does have a bearing on allergies and how they are perpetuated by processed food.

Remember when lamb & rice kibble was the hypoallergenic dog food? Now it's fish and potato, and next year it will be quail and quinoa. When I do speaking engagements, I always stress to pet owners the need for variation. It takes 1 to 3 years to develop an allergy; most dog owners find a food and stick with it until the dog has some sort of reaction (i.e. allergies, itchies, weight gain).

Now lastly are the grain ingredients in kibble products. When they are whole, they pose less of a problem than when they are *over* processed for kibble products. Not to mention the fact that the kibble companies don't use the best grain ingredients, what they get are fractions of grains and floor sweepings. Yet still some dogs will not even be OK with whole grains, just like people, each has a different body to work with.

If you have a pet that suffers form allergies (inhalant or food), please find a vet who will put off or eliminate vaccinations until this dog is not so compromised. While the manuals that the vets receive for companion animal vaccinations aren't quite as comprehensive as the one for humans, the human one does state that vaccinations shouldn't be administered to patients with T or B or T & B cell immunodeficiency. T & B cell immunodeficiency is characterized by allergies.

Here is an outline of the role mucous plays in the digestive system and how it perpetuates allergies:

Interestingly, when cooked foods are eaten, large amounts of mucus are secreted. Foods that are particularly mucus forming include: meat, cheese, milk products, pastries, candy, white flour products, white pasta, and ALL PROCESSED, REFINED FOODS. These foods may appropriately be referred to as "glue foods." Nature provides mucus as a protective coating, which surrounds gluey material to keep the intestinal membranes from absorbing toxic substances.

When cooked food is eaten, the T-cells, which are so vital to immune function, increase in the gastrointestinal tissue to protect our system from certain foods, which are interpreted as foreign matter. If we consume cooked and processed food day after day without adequately eating raw food and fibrous foods, protective mucus will form in excess and build up on bowel tissue similar to the age rings we see in the trunks of trees. Dr. Bernard Jensen, in his book “Tissue Cleansing Through Bowel Management,” writes: “Mucosal dysfunction occurs when the intestinal mucous lining becomes stagnant and putrefactive. It begins to develop many unfavorable conditions. No longer does it serve the function of facilitating elimination of faecal material. Instead it degenerates in several ways. It can become abscessed, in which case irritations, abrasions, ulcerations and bleeding can occur. Food passage can be very painful. Mucous can dehydrate and accumulate due to increased viscid consistency. This causes layer upon layer to be built up until extreme constipation occurs. This old material becomes a source of infection and toxic absorption, holding many otherwise excreted products. It also greatly inhibits the absorption of nutrients and water, adding to nutritional crisis.”

As a result of faulty eating, nature's protective coating -- which was designed for occasional use only -- becomes enraged and inadvertently contributes to ill health. Consequently, the immune system is taxed and the presence of this excess mucus creates a perfect medium for the multiplication of bacteria, viruses, parasites and worms. Autoimmune diseases may develop due to the fact that the immune system has begun to attach the body, rather than invading microorganisms. Continually eating “lifeless” foods -- cooked, refined or processed foods devoid of fibre and enzymes -- over stimulate the immune system in a way that compromises its function. As a result, we become susceptible to every virus and bacteria, constantly coming down with some illness and we may not think to relate it to our digestive systems.

Kibble will take an enormous toll on a pet’s body. Since the kidney and liver constantly filter waste products from the body, they were (and are) constantly at work when so many impurities were present. I mean, in addition to the extremely poor quality ingredients of most kibbles, you will also have a variety of chemicals to preserve it, BHT, BHA, ethoxyquin. Now in addition to these preservatives, inorganic and toxic dyes are added to commercial food. Binding agents are added to the food to create the shapes and clay products may be added to produce consistent-looking stools. Other additives can include anti-caking agents, drying agents, texturizers, stabilizers, and thickeners. And while not chemicals, refined sugar and fat may be added to make the food more palatable.

To just give an explanation of how the digestive system is affected by what form nutrition is obtained, here is a summary of the life of a kibble pet ...

Puppies (or kittens) experience initial intestinal scarring and protein infiltration when weaned on to commercial food at an early age (early age in biological terms would be before three months).

Intestinal scarring interferes with the re-absorption of bile salts. The liver produces bile fluid that plays an important role in the digestion of dietary fats. The digestive enzymes used to digest food are delivered to the small intestine in a solution of water.

Since oil (fats) and water don't mix, the enzymes have difficulty attaching to the liquid. To solve this problem, bile is secreted by the gallbladder. Bile salts act like laundry detergent, emulsifying lipid molecules. This breaks down the lipid and exposes more surface to the effects of the digestive enzyme lipase. Bile salts are not normally excreted from the body, they are recycled. Once their work is complete they are reabsorbed from the intestine, recycled by the liver and returned to the gallbladder for future use. (Note: re-absorption problems would be the early morning vomiting of bile.)

Eating a lifetime diet of processed food places a great demand on the pancreas to produce digestive enzymes.

Unable to keep up with the demand, the pancreas becomes enlarge and enflamed.

White blood cells bring additional enzymes to supplement digestion, neglecting their job to protect the body from invaders. Digestion is slowed.

Slowed digestion allows ample time for harsh chemicals and foreign molecules to irritate the pancreas, liver and intestinal lining.

The irritation and otherwise-occupied white blood cells provide continued opportunities for large grain protein or other foreign molecules to infiltrate the intestine.

Constant inflammation of the pancreas, liver and intestinal linings result in a sustained production of cortisol.

The adrenal glands, exhausted from this sustained effort, may produce cortisol that is biologically inactive.

Biologically inactive cortisol fails to shut of the ACTH (adrenocoricotrophic hormone) feedback loop. The pituitary gland may become hypertrophied and exhausted. Excessive cortisol production, prescription steroids, intestinal scarring, and the otherwise occupied white blood cells hamper IgA production (IgA is the first line of defense in the immune system).

IgA deficiency allows for the continued infiltration of large protein molecules into the body.

IgG and IgM antibodies are deployed, which memorize the amino acid chains of the large protein molecules, and attempt to destroy them.

IgG and IgM antibodies later recognize that same amino acid chain elsewhere in the dogs’ own body. Unable to distinguish between self and non-self, the antibodies destroy these tissues as well.

And a lymphatic system preoccupied with immune function (the production of more white blood cells) interferes with lipid digestion.

It's a chicken-and-the-egg puzzle. Many dogs today exhibit some degree of leaky gut syndrome and excess cortisol production. They suffer from chronic skin infections, allergies, autoimmune disorders, vomiting, diarrhea, obesity, hypothyroidism, urinary tract infections, and incontinence. *Which particular* disorder they develop is likely a matter of genetic predisposition. But many of our pets are experiencing the same underlying problems.

Natural, raw food is the foundation for many, many years of brilliant health.

[LL1]

Originally Posted by technodoll

My understanding is that denatured (cooked) protein is more likely to be recognised as a foreign protein by the dog's body, which can cause an allergic reaction - while in humans it is the contrary.

I wonder how the denaturing of the protein done through cooking differs from the denaturing done during digestion.

[Prin]

I would guess that breaking it apart with heat is sort of like exploding it, while digesting it is enzymes, which break it apart in a very specific way. Just my theory.

[Hunter's_owner]

Prin I agree with your theory. From what I can remember, digestion works in a specific way to break apart the proteins with specific enzymes, that way the amino acids in the proteins are taken up as needed. By denaturing with cooking, the protein actually changes so that the enzymes cannot break the protein apart.

This may be wrong...it has been a few years since organic chem

[technodoll]

here is a simple explanation i found:

Meat is animal muscle. The muscle has coiled-up protein molecules. Heating up the meat makes the protein molecules unwind and gets rid of some of the water in the meat.

One type of protein called myoglobin, which stores oxygen, is what makes beef muscle (steak) red. Above 140 degrees, myoglobin can’t store oxygen anymore, and there’s a change in the iron contained in meat, too. Those chemical reactions are what makes beef look different when it’s cooked.

Bitzane said that a protein’s function determines its shape. “When you mess up that shape, it’s called denaturation,” she said. Cooking causes a protein to lose its shape and its ability to perform its original function.

[LL1]

I am not sure,the denaturing by stomach acid apparently changes the protein as well.

I find it all really interesting,much like how some people avoid by-products and some feed them regularly.

[Goldens4Ever]

Prin-
Thanks for finding & posting those websites for me about Purina's 'studies.'

On another note, Nature's Variety frozen, raw meaty bones rock!

[Angie J]

Why isnt home made workable.

I have a hubby, 4 yr old, teens a job outside the home.... I find home based meals as easy as preparing lunch for my daughter (can do it at the same time and no time is lost)..... Mmmmmmmm, Pork Ribblets and ground chicken this morning (food processor)
But, I do feed kibble as well in a pinch, Canidae.

Oh, and 2 doggies that would be considered Large-Giant Breeds.

Angie J

[technodoll]

home-made is totally workable - like everything in life, you MAKE time for what you consider important. and i consider my dog's health high on my list off priorities, since they can't feed themselves, i am their guardian and it's my job to give them the best... yes it takes a bit of time to put their meals together but i would do the same for my kids (if i had any), so what's the difference if i do it for my dogs? but not everyone feels this way.

[Prin]

yes it takes a bit of time to put their meals together but i would do the same for my kids (if i had any), so what's the difference if i do it for my dogs?

See that's where we differ... If I'm not doing it for ME, how can I trust that I will do it consistently for my doggies? If you were raised with bad eating habits (or lack thereof), IMO, it's not easy to take on the burden of feeding somebody else well.

[meb999]

Originally Posted by technodoll

home-made is totally workable - like everything in life, you MAKE time for what you consider important. and i consider my dog's health high on my list off priorities, since they can't feed themselves, i am their guardian and it's my job to give them the best... yes it takes a bit of time to put their meals together but i would do the same for my kids (if i had any), so what's the difference if i do it for my dogs? but not everyone feels this way.

there are more and more of these comments being made on the board, and I gotta say it's really starting to bug me. You feed RAW and you feel it's the best for your dog. Good for you, I think that's great.
But there IS still alot of controversy on this diet, and feeding kibble DOESN'T mean that you don't care about your pets health.

[Prin]

meb, that's true too.

[Hunter's_owner]

Originally Posted by meb999

and feeding kibble DOESN'T mean that you don't care about your pets health.

Yeah, I am glad you said this, because I have been feeling like it was only me that felt this way. Nothing against what anyone does or says, because I know that for the most part we are all doing what we feel is best for our pets. Most of the time I stay away from such talks because I feed kibble

[Scott_B]

Techno isn't saying its wrong to feed kibble. Everyone has to feed what they feel comfortable with. Thats fine. But explaining why she feeds raw isn't wrong. And I don't say that because I feed it. I'm big on find what works for your pet. Be it kibble or Raw.

But because someone praises raw, it seems that kibble feeders get defensive about it. No one is forcing you to feed it. How is that any different then a thread saying how great your pup on kibble is doing? Kibble is controversial don't ya know? No one gets upset when someone posts saying how great their pup is doing on Kibble, so why get upset at the raw comments, just because you don't agree with it?

[Prin]

I'm sorry, but saying our dogs are not a priority because we feed "fast" kibble instead of taking the time to grind and whatever is insulting.

There's a difference between:
"I feed raw because I feel it's best for my dog." AND
"I feed raw and other people are just lazy and don't care about their dog's nutrition and health enough to take the time to do it."

Not what she said literally, but it's what it means.

[Hunter's_owner]

Originally Posted by Scott_B

Techno isn't saying its wrong to feed kibble. Everyone has to feed what they feel comfortable with. Thats fine. But explaining why she feeds raw isn't wrong. And I don't say that because I feed it. I'm big on find what works for your pet. Be it kibble or Raw.

But because someone praises raw, it seems that kibble feeders get defensive about it. No one is forcing you to feed it. How is that any different then a thread saying how great your pup on kibble is doing? Kibble is controversial don't ya know? No one gets upset when someone posts saying how great their pup is doing on Kibble, so why get upset at the raw comments, just because you don't agree with it?

No no, thats not it at all. I am definetly not upset at the raw comments. I think it is great that you guys can do that for your animals, I really do, especially after seeing such great results. But I do know one lady (not from this forum, in real life) that tries to convert everyone to feeding raw, to the point of making them feel guilty for feeding kibble. I guess some of that carries over for me whenever I hear anyone praising raw, it just always goes back to her for me.

But really I want to emphasize that I am not upset at all with any comment made, I was just glad to know that I wasn't the only non-raw feeder out there