Go Back   Pet forum for dogs cats and humans - Pets.ca > Discussion Groups - mainly cats and dogs > General Forum for cats and dogs

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old February 21st, 2010, 08:45 PM
Mirela Mirela is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 224
Question about number of litters and puppies' health

So, here is the situation - I have to pick a puppy and the breeder has two litters - a few weeks appart. The first litter is the first one for that momma-dog, while the later is the fourth one for the second momma-dog. The question is: does it matter?
Health-wise? Temperament?

From which litter should I pick?
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old February 22nd, 2010, 09:05 AM
Chris21711 Chris21711 is offline
-
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Queensville, Ontario
Posts: 8,992
Why not save a life and adopt a homeless dog, there are thousands waiting for a loving home
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old February 22nd, 2010, 09:09 AM
Melinda's Avatar
Melinda Melinda is offline
Senior Contributor
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 5,247
check the mom and dads health certificates etc and go by that, look for the parents temperments , the breeder must have a vet that you can call to see about their hips, eyes...etc depending on what breed they are there are different health worries, a good breeder will try to breed to prevent those issues
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old February 22nd, 2010, 10:05 AM
Mirela Mirela is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 224
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris21711 View Post
Why not save a life and adopt a homeless dog, there are thousands waiting for a loving home
Yes, you are right, but that is not an option this time, for good reasons.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old February 22nd, 2010, 10:11 AM
Mirela Mirela is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 224
Quote:
Originally Posted by Melinda View Post
check the mom and dads health certificates etc and go by that, look for the parents temperments , the breeder must have a vet that you can call to see about their hips, eyes...etc depending on what breed they are there are different health worries, a good breeder will try to breed to prevent those issues
Thanks, we did all that and everything is fine with both litters. The only difference is the female's age (one is 4, the other one 8) and number of litters.
The only worry I have is that the breeder told us that, because this is the first litter of the younger female, she does not quite know what to expect in terms of puppy temperament. Health-wise everything checks out; I have seen the parents and will have the proper health certificates for the puppy.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old February 22nd, 2010, 10:15 AM
Melinda's Avatar
Melinda Melinda is offline
Senior Contributor
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 5,247
well then you go to see both litters, and see how best any of the pups interact with you, thats how I chose my last dog, 4 females, one aggressively bit (10 weeks old), one was too shy to come near us, I run a daycare so I have to be careful of dogs I choose, one completely ran crazy and was a tad over hyper, the one we chose was ummmm "not too swift", playfull and didn't use teeth even at that young age so she came home with us. Go by their ways and your lifestyle, I really don't see how first litter or age of mom would have anything to do with the pups.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old February 22nd, 2010, 10:16 AM
Love4himies's Avatar
Love4himies Love4himies is offline
Rescue is my fav. breed
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Boating in the 1000 Islands
Posts: 17,769
Not sure why you can't adopt from a rescue/shelter but anyways.

I would think twice before adopting from this person. I find it hard to believe that a rep breeder would have planned to have two litters so close together knowing how much time one litter can take especially if something happens to momma soooooooo....:

Do your research on the breed and find out what they are genetically proned to and ensure both momma and dad have been tested. Try to get some references on this breeder, you'd be surprised what you can find out on the internet . Spend some time with the momma and pups to see how good of a momma she is and her personality and, if you can, the father of the pups.
__________________
Cat maid to:


Rose semi feral, a cpietra rescue, female tabby (approx 13 yrs)

Jasper RIP (2001-2018)
Sweet Pea RIP (2004?-2014)
Puddles RIP (1996-2014)
Snowball RIP (1991-2005)

In a cat's eye, all things belong to cats.-English Proverb

“While we are free to choose our actions, we are not free to choose the consequences of our actions.” Stephen R. Covey
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old February 22nd, 2010, 10:38 AM
aslan aslan is offline
-
Asteroids Champion, Starship Legend Champion, Rabbit Hunter Champion, Magic Ball Champion, Candy Tetris Champion, Bounce Back Champion, Breakout Champion
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: toronto, on
Posts: 15,600
I personally am with Chris and Love4 on rescuing a puppy instead, but since you say you CAN'T..I would find another breeder. Not only does having two litters so close together put up red flags on this persons ethics but so does the fact she is still using an 8yr old for breeding. Are these dogs akc or ckc registered, do they have ch. titles.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old February 22nd, 2010, 10:50 AM
Love4himies's Avatar
Love4himies Love4himies is offline
Rescue is my fav. breed
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Boating in the 1000 Islands
Posts: 17,769
Quote:
Originally Posted by aslan View Post
I personally am with Chris and Love4 on rescuing a puppy instead, but since you say you CAN'T..I would find another breeder. Not only does having two litters so close together put up red flags on this persons ethics but so does the fact she is still using an 8yr old for breeding. Are these dogs akc or ckc registered, do they have ch. titles.
I agree, 8 year old dog is like a 60 year old giving birth to octoplets
__________________
Cat maid to:


Rose semi feral, a cpietra rescue, female tabby (approx 13 yrs)

Jasper RIP (2001-2018)
Sweet Pea RIP (2004?-2014)
Puddles RIP (1996-2014)
Snowball RIP (1991-2005)

In a cat's eye, all things belong to cats.-English Proverb

“While we are free to choose our actions, we are not free to choose the consequences of our actions.” Stephen R. Covey
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old February 22nd, 2010, 10:51 AM
shirley1011 shirley1011 is offline
banned user
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: North of Oshawa Ontario
Posts: 3,955
Am I reading this correct...an 8 year old female having a litter?
Wow! I would certainly question that.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old February 22nd, 2010, 11:22 AM
BenMax BenMax is offline
Senior Contributor
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 10,187
The red flag right away for me is using an 8 year old for breeding. That in itself is off. I would get the heck out of Dodge and either rescue one or find an ethical breeder.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old February 22nd, 2010, 11:32 AM
Bailey_'s Avatar
Bailey_ Bailey_ is offline
Senior Contributor
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Edmonton, Alberta
Posts: 1,722
A reputable breeder will have all puppies temperment tested to give their future homes a better idea of what puppy will suit which family. They won't let YOU choose your puppy, they'll choose FOR you.
__________________
~B~
"If you are a dog and your owner suggests that you wear a sweater. . . suggest that he wear a tail."

Bailey (Labradoodle)
Tippy (Collie/ShepX)
Vali (American Bulldog)
Artiro (Cane Corso)
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old February 22nd, 2010, 11:42 AM
Mirela Mirela is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 224
Quote:
Originally Posted by Melinda View Post
well then you go to see both litters, and see how best any of the pups interact with you, thats how I chose my last dog, 4 females, one aggressively bit (10 weeks old), one was too shy to come near us, I run a daycare so I have to be careful of dogs I choose, one completely ran crazy and was a tad over hyper, the one we chose was ummmm "not too swift", playfull and didn't use teeth even at that young age so she came home with us. Go by their ways and your lifestyle.
Thanks, that's what I will do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Melinda View Post
I really don't see how first litter or age of mom would have anything to do with the pups.
I'm not sure either, that's why I asked. I'm trying to do my "homework" and be as prepared as one could be.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old February 22nd, 2010, 11:47 AM
Bailey_'s Avatar
Bailey_ Bailey_ is offline
Senior Contributor
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Edmonton, Alberta
Posts: 1,722
Quote:
I really don't see how first litter or age of mom would have anything to do with the pups.
It matters because a first litter means that as a breeder she couldn't tell you how the puppies will be when they're older or past the puppyhood age, compared to the dog a breeder has been using for a while.
__________________
~B~
"If you are a dog and your owner suggests that you wear a sweater. . . suggest that he wear a tail."

Bailey (Labradoodle)
Tippy (Collie/ShepX)
Vali (American Bulldog)
Artiro (Cane Corso)
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old February 22nd, 2010, 11:51 AM
Melinda's Avatar
Melinda Melinda is offline
Senior Contributor
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 5,247
thanks Baily, I never thought of that!!
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old February 22nd, 2010, 11:51 AM
14+kitties's Avatar
14+kitties 14+kitties is offline
150% PRO S/N
Starcastle Champion, V:force Champion, UFO Shoot Out Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, Mission To Mars Champion, Disc Dash Champion, Crazy Closet Champion, Railway Line Champion, Penguin Pass Champion
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: MYOB
Posts: 15,408
Maybe this article will help clear up some questions.
Personally I am with the others. Run for the hills away from this breeder.

http://www.breedsmartpartners.com/br...P&articleID=54

As a veterinarian, I recommend my clients have their bitches spayed by 7 or 8 years of age (or younger if the bitch is no longer being bred) to reduce the risk of pyometra.

Pyometra is a deadly deadly disease. It is one I would never put a dog of mine through.

Gotta say I am also with the ones who say to rescue. There are many many purebreds being put down every single day due to no homes being available to them. And the cost would be much less than from a breeder. Petfinder is a great site to start looking. You would also be surprised what is available at your local shelter or from a rescue.
__________________
Assumptions do nothing but make an ass out of u and me.

We can stick our heads in the sand for only so long before it starts choking us. Face it folks. The pet population is bad ALL OVER THE WORLD!
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old February 22nd, 2010, 11:54 AM
Mirela Mirela is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 224
Thanks all for your replies.

And sorry - I gave you the wrong info - the older female is 6, not 8 - I called the breeder after reading your replied and asked.

The breeder has help taking care of the litters - there are 4 adult human "grandparents" for the 8 puppies. I have seen the adult female dogs before the puppies were born. We have also visited the first litter and both the female and male dog were there during the visit - we spent about an hour in the house and I haven't seen any "red flags". The only one I won't be able to see is the second male, as he does not belong to this breeder.

Oh, and I did check the breeder and the dog-parents; all four of them are ckc registered, and have ch. titles - this is not only from the breeder but I have also found the dogs' names as participants in several shows.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old February 22nd, 2010, 11:56 AM
Mirela Mirela is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 224
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bailey_ View Post
A reputable breeder will have all puppies temperment tested to give their future homes a better idea of what puppy will suit which family. They won't let YOU choose your puppy, they'll choose FOR you.
She might do that - we did not get to choose a puppy yet; this was the first visit - the puppies are 4 only weeks old now.

I will let you know.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old February 22nd, 2010, 12:24 PM
Love4himies's Avatar
Love4himies Love4himies is offline
Rescue is my fav. breed
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Boating in the 1000 Islands
Posts: 17,769
Does the breeder know the second father well? Will the owner provide health certificate from that father, including any genetic testing?

I really think the only way you are going to be able to choose (if you are given the choice) is to spend time with each of the litters. Watch the litter with the first time momma closely and how she is with them.

Good luck.
__________________
Cat maid to:


Rose semi feral, a cpietra rescue, female tabby (approx 13 yrs)

Jasper RIP (2001-2018)
Sweet Pea RIP (2004?-2014)
Puddles RIP (1996-2014)
Snowball RIP (1991-2005)

In a cat's eye, all things belong to cats.-English Proverb

“While we are free to choose our actions, we are not free to choose the consequences of our actions.” Stephen R. Covey
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old February 22nd, 2010, 12:35 PM
Melinda's Avatar
Melinda Melinda is offline
Senior Contributor
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 5,247
well you certainly have done your homework! Congrates on the new fur baby and good luck!!
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old February 22nd, 2010, 03:39 PM
hazelrunpack's Avatar
hazelrunpack hazelrunpack is offline
The Pack's Head Servant
Chopper Challenge Champion, Mini KickUps Champion, Bugz Champion, Snakeman Steve Champion, Shape Game Champion, Mumu Champion, Mouse Race Champion
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Just east of the Hazelnut Patch, Wisconsin
Posts: 53,771
Quote:
Originally Posted by Love4himies View Post
I find it hard to believe that a rep breeder would have planned to have two litters so close together knowing how much time one litter can take especially if something happens to momma soooooooo....:
Just a comment on the timing. Sometimes breeders will do this in case something does happen to one of the dams. It's much easier to take care of newborn pups if there is a dam to suckle them, even if she's suckling a double brood. Straight formula isn't as good--and if there are available nipples, the pups get at least some natural milk with all the good stuff in it instead of just formula. Supplementation with formula can then help make sure everyone gets enough calories and takes some of the load off the remaining mother.
__________________
"We are--each of us--dying; it's how we live in the meantime that makes the difference."

"It's not what you gather, but what you scatter that tells what kind of life you have lived!"

"Be kinder than necessary, for everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle."
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old February 22nd, 2010, 03:41 PM
Melinda's Avatar
Melinda Melinda is offline
Senior Contributor
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 5,247
my grams use to always have more than one litter at a time at her kennels. we'd do the little toe nails different colors to make sure we knew which pups belonged to which mom.....often the moms would feed each others.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old February 22nd, 2010, 07:09 PM
t.pettet t.pettet is offline
Senior Contributor
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: lanark, Ont.
Posts: 1,255
Question about

Breeding at age 6 is pushing their luck, thats the absolute latest a bitch should be made to reproduce.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old February 22nd, 2010, 07:23 PM
shirley1011 shirley1011 is offline
banned user
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: North of Oshawa Ontario
Posts: 3,955
Breeding at 6 is a little old for my way of thinking too...and the first litter at age 4? something isn't right!
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old February 23rd, 2010, 11:30 AM
Longblades Longblades is offline
Senior Contributor
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,528
Unless the second bitch's litter is a repeat breeding there is no way for the breeder to be sure of temperament for those puppies. Even then, puppies turn out differently amongst litter mates. All you can hope for is a guideline based on the breeder's observations.

Age 6 is not too old for a litter and age 4 is not too young, depending perhaps on the breed of the dog. Of more concern to you might be how closely together were the 4 litters bred of the older dog? Breeding on successive heats might mean puppies every 6 months for that dog. Opinion amongst breeders differs on whether successive heat breeding removes them from so-called "reputable" status. Some say OK, maybe once, some same never. Ditto for repeat breedings with the same parents. Some say it overpopulates the gene pool, others disagree.

It is also well within the realm of reality and "reputable" to have two litters at the same time. Perhaps the breeder is fortunate enough to have a source of income not dependant on full time work outside the home (retirement comes to mind) and can devote the time to puppies that others could not. There are many variables.

I think you need to consider that the word "reputable" has NO legal meaning as pertains to dogs and is only a compendium of commonly held beliefs. Those beliefs can vary tremendously between the parties involved. Use them as a guideline but don't get hung up if one is missed.

It sounds like you have done a lot of work on pedigree and clearances. Good for you. Do you have specific goals for this puppy? We did and that's why we have gone the purebred route. We wanted those health clearances.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old February 23rd, 2010, 08:57 PM
Mirela Mirela is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 224
Quote:
Originally Posted by Longblades View Post
[......]
It sounds like you have done a lot of work on pedigree and clearances. Good for you. Do you have specific goals for this puppy? We did and that's why we have gone the purebred route. We wanted those health clearances.

No, I just want a healthy puppy for a family pet; it will not be breed nor shown. But, it's my first dog and I do not have experience in dealing with any kind of health problems, that's why I'm obsessing and trying to avoid as much as possible of the unknown.
The only reason I checked pedigree and clearances was that I'm hoping for a dog without genetic problems. I know how to deal with upset tummies and projectile vomiting (did my share of diaper changes and cleaning questionable stuff off my clothes )
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old February 24th, 2010, 06:30 AM
Melinda's Avatar
Melinda Melinda is offline
Senior Contributor
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 5,247
what kind of dog are you getting?
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old February 27th, 2010, 10:24 PM
mafiaprincess's Avatar
mafiaprincess mafiaprincess is offline
Performance Spaniels
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Whitby, ON
Posts: 2,395
Quote:
Originally Posted by t.pettet View Post
Breeding at age 6 is pushing their luck, thats the absolute latest a bitch should be made to reproduce.
I have no problem with 6 for a bitch depending upon breed. Many sight hound breeders don't start breeding careers till later as they are often longer lived breeds. I have more of an issue with breeding an excessive number of times in a dog's life than breeding a slightly older bitch.

Using older dogs to breed is often looked upon as better as they have longer to possibly develop health problems before being bred.

Too many breeders breed young a few times and then rehome their breeding dogs. They did health testing nothing came up and then re-homed the dogs before anything could come up so gee when I bred the dogs they were healthy. Not cool, but it happens a good amount.
__________________
CRB Houdini's Apple Cider RXMCL AGDC AADC MSDC MJDC RNT CL3-F CL3-H EXJ Bronze
Stanton Acres Out Of The Ashes SGDC RNMCL MJDC ADC CL3-F CL3-S CL3-H
Stark Naked Burn it to the Ground
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old February 28th, 2010, 02:54 PM
mona_b's Avatar
mona_b mona_b is offline
Senior Contributor
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Hamilton Ont
Posts: 4,620
Do I think it matters? Not if the Sire and Dam are of sound Temperment. And it doesn't matter if it's the first litter or the 4th. Breeders do TT(temperment testing) when the pups are about 49 days old. Alot goes into the testing. And with this, they will know what type of temperment each pup will have. And since this breeder already has bred before, they know what to look for. Even if she was a first time breeder, then her mentor would be there to help with the testing.

Have you been able to see the pups?

As for not seeing the Sire of the second litter, yes you can. Let this breeder know you would like to go see the breeder who has the Sire. I did this. This way you can see the temperment of the Sire and know the breeder.

Is this the first breeder you are dealing with? I know that it took me a little over a year to find my breeder. I went to shows and talked to many breeders.

What contracts does this breeder have?
__________________
"A dog can express more with his tail in minutes than his owner can express with his tongue in hours."
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Terms of Use

  • All Bulletin Board Posts are for personal/non-commercial use only.
  • Self-promotion and/or promotion in general is prohibited.
  • Debate is healthy but profane and deliberately rude posts will be deleted.
  • Posters not following the rules will be banned at the Admins' discretion.
  • Read the Full Forum Rules

Forum Details

  • Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
    Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
    vBulletin Optimisation by vB Optimise (Reduced on this page: MySQL 0%).
  • All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:52 AM.