#31
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But they're still considered carnivores. Just not obligate. Dogs get no nutritional value from raw fruits and veggies as they lack the ability to break down the cellulose walls of plants. The only way is to grind them up or cook them, which also alters and destroys nutrients.
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Sure they can eat veggies, even survive on them, but that does not make them omnivores.
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Please please please give Maggie the steak! Its not too big for her little mouth! Their impression of power is remarkable. They give one the feeling of immense reserves of energy, of great reservoirs of knowledge, of tolerance of disposition, obstinacy of purpose, and tenacity of principle. They are responsive, and they have a lot of quiet, good sense. -J. Wentworth Day, from The Dog in Sport, 1938 |
#32
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WOW this is all very interesting! I'm looking at all the links members have included in their posts. Thanks for this info.
Maybe dogs are evolving into omnivores, from years of domestication...hmmmm True or not, I'm sure I will be feeding my Daphne more raw meat. See how that goes. This has been an excellent thread. (I'm new). |
#33
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While i agree, our dogs are domesticated, their digestive systems havent changed.
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Please please please give Maggie the steak! Its not too big for her little mouth! Their impression of power is remarkable. They give one the feeling of immense reserves of energy, of great reservoirs of knowledge, of tolerance of disposition, obstinacy of purpose, and tenacity of principle. They are responsive, and they have a lot of quiet, good sense. -J. Wentworth Day, from The Dog in Sport, 1938 |
#34
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Here's an interesting bit of information- only herbivores have the ability to break down cellulose. Humans (omnivores) cannot break down cellulose- the best we can do is to grind it up with our molars and allow our digestive/ gastrointestinal tract to handle it and get the necessary vitamins and minerals out of it. Amylase is really only useful for starch digestion- which basically means carbohydrate digestion (grains). Anyone here ever not properly chew up their veggies (like corn or carrots) before swallowing? They'll come out whole or in large pieces in your stool too .
http://www.chu.cam.ac.uk/~ALRF/giintro.htm I personally think that dogs are carnivores but do benefit from the addition of fruits and vegetables- especially if ground up before ingestion (essentially pre-chewed). A lot of people suggest that wolves shake out the stomaches of large prey, which is probably true BUT I think that wolves eat a lot of smaller, easier to find and catch prey that they would eat whole (mice, rabbits, birds, etc). Deer and other large game are not so plentiful that they can be eaten at every meal and they require a lot more energy expended to hunt and kill. We feed Helix 1/2 kibble and 1/2 raw + veggies. They don't hurt him, he enjoys them and he probably gets some nutritional value from them. I'm not sure why they get such a bad rep from most raw feeders though- excess work for what is perceived as not much value? I don't know, I just give Helix the over ripe stuff in the fridge that needs to be used up anyway... |
#35
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#36
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Here is agreat article about dogs evolving from the Grey wolf. http://rawfed.com/myths/changed.html And here the diet of the Grey wolf. Quote:
And as i posted in the raw section, any nutients dogs need from veggies, can be found in meat, bones and organs.
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Please please please give Maggie the steak! Its not too big for her little mouth! Their impression of power is remarkable. They give one the feeling of immense reserves of energy, of great reservoirs of knowledge, of tolerance of disposition, obstinacy of purpose, and tenacity of principle. They are responsive, and they have a lot of quiet, good sense. -J. Wentworth Day, from The Dog in Sport, 1938 |
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#38
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Please please please give Maggie the steak! Its not too big for her little mouth! Their impression of power is remarkable. They give one the feeling of immense reserves of energy, of great reservoirs of knowledge, of tolerance of disposition, obstinacy of purpose, and tenacity of principle. They are responsive, and they have a lot of quiet, good sense. -J. Wentworth Day, from The Dog in Sport, 1938 |
#39
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I think it is this one? Or at least, this is likely the original article referenced in SableCollie's quote.
http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/conten.../298/5598/1613 Ancient DNA evidence for Old World origin of New World dogs.Leonard JA, Wayne RK, Wheeler J, Valadez R, Guillén S, Vilà C. Department of Organismic Biology, Ecology and Evolution, University of California, Los Angeles, CA 90095-1606, USA. Leonard.Jennifer@NMNH.SI.edu Science 22 November 2002: Vol. 298. no. 5598, pp. 1613 - 1616 Quote:
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http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/co...ull/22/12/2541 Mol Biol Evol. 2005 Dec;22(12):2541-51. Epub 2005 Aug 24. Links Mitochondrial DNA from prehistoric canids highlights relationships between dogs and South-East European wolves.Verginelli F, Capelli C, Coia V, Musiani M, Falchetti M, Ottini L, Palmirotta R, Tagliacozzo A, De Grossi Mazzorin I, Mariani-Costantini R. Quote:
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#40
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More on canine genetics...
http://www.genome.org/cgi/content/full/16/8/990 Genome Res. 2006 Aug;16(8):990-4. Epub 2006 Jun 29. Links Relaxation of selective constraint on dog mitochondrial DNA following domestication.Björnerfeldt S, Webster MT, Vilà C. Department of Evolutionary Biology, Uppsala University, SE-752 36 Uppsala, Sweden. Quote:
Genome Res. 15:1706-1716, 2005 ©2005 by Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory Press; ISSN 1088-9051/05 $5.00 The canine genome Elaine A. Ostrander1,3 and Robert K. Wayne2 1 Cancer Genetics Branch, National Human Genome Research Institute, National Institutes of Health, Bethesda, Maryland 20892, USA , 2 Department of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology, University of California at Los Angeles, Los Angeles, California 90095, USA http://www.nature.com/hdy/journal/v9.../6800224a.html March 2003, Volume 90, Number 3, Pages 201-202 News and Commentary Population Genetics: The dog that came in from the cold G M Acland1 and E A Ostrander Last edited by Kristin7; June 7th, 2007 at 11:00 AM. |
#41
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My source was a press release from UCLA.
Some scientists are now looking into the possibility that the earliest dogs were evolved from asian wolves (which can be much smaller than european wolves). Some say dogs evolved from only a handful of wolves, some say from many different wolves, over a period of thousands of years...nothing is clear or conclusive. They come up with different "answers" every few years or so. The only sure thing is that dogs did not descend from jackals or coyotes...although the eastern coyotes we have here are a possible cross between the grey wolf and the western coyote...everything is muddled. I remember when a handful of scientists decided to reclassify domestic dogs as a subspecies of grey wolf-Canis lupus familiaris instead of Canis familiaris. There were a lot of people who were not so happy about that, they believed that not enough research had been done. It was something that the wolf-hybrid breeders had been pushing for, because if dogs and grey wolves are the same species, then why shouldn't they be bred together! They had also had problems getting their animals rabies vaccinated, since the vaccine available for dogs had not been approved for hybrids. But then if dogs are wolves, and the vaccine is approved for dogs....yeah. There were a lot of arguments going on at that time, I think most of it has died down by now. Of course Grey Wolf has many subspecies, it's possible that Dog is a subspecies of a subspecies.... Here's the latest theory of dogs being descended from 3 female asian wolves. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/2498669.stm I thought this was very interesting too: Quote:
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#42
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The 'answers' are all pieces to the puzzle, which is not yet complete and probably won't be for awhile. With new techniques and data, the picture will become more clear eventually. Don't take any single article/study to be the final correct answer... the lay press does this and confuses the issues, often misquoting and misinterpreting what the original articles say.
Yes, I read that somewhere about the genetic differences between ancient and modern New World dogs... quite interesting! Last edited by Kristin7; June 7th, 2007 at 06:05 PM. |
#43
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Regarding Raw
Hi,
After doing much research, I've learned that although we've domesticated the animals exteriors, we have not altered their digestive systems. They are still carnivores who thrive better on what they would normally catch in the wild, raw meat etc. I have two German Shepherds, one with skin issues and one in chronic kidney failure who are both doing better with their issues since being changed over to raw. I also have purchased green tripe from Canada and will update as soon as I see what's happening to them with it.........Keep on smiling...Guardians of Sadie, Shady, Sambeau and Licos. |
#44
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__________________
Please please please give Maggie the steak! Its not too big for her little mouth! Their impression of power is remarkable. They give one the feeling of immense reserves of energy, of great reservoirs of knowledge, of tolerance of disposition, obstinacy of purpose, and tenacity of principle. They are responsive, and they have a lot of quiet, good sense. -J. Wentworth Day, from The Dog in Sport, 1938 |
#45
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Because they lack the enzymatic ability to break down the cell walls of fruits/veggies, I provide them with mushed substances, such as natural applesauce or various other mushed carbs (in very small amounts, of course). |
#46
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Here we go again yes it is comparing apples and oranges because you are referencing 2 different measured states wet and dry, you have to do a conversion and put to put then in the same state to compare the normal way is to use dry matter as the basis to compare different diets when we talk natural feeding of prey the animals consumes most part of the animal some of fur which becomes fiber, bone and some stomach content for minerals and vitamins and carbs and meat also contain fat at ratio of 2 parts protein 1 part fat which with the bit of grasses a dog eats, the natural diet is 56% protein, 28% fat, and roughly 14% carb when conveted using a dry measured basis THe average kibble diet is roughly 60% carbs(some of the carbs are protein sources) 24% protein and 15 % fat no where even close to a natural diet Even foods like EVO still consist of more carbs than a natural diets contains as a result the protien and fat % will be less than the natural diet. So food like EVO or Orijen are not artificially high in protein they are still lower in protein than a natural diet look at this article that shows how to compare foods in dry and wet form http://www.stevesrealfood.com/facts/nutrition.htm this also show the graph of the difference between nutritional values in a natural raw diet and a kibble diet, but unfortunately you have to sign up for and will recieve emailings http://www.mercola.com/2005/feb/5/pets_grains.htm this article also shows how to compare wet and dry food so you are measure on the same basis again you have to sign up to read http://www.mercola.com/2005/mar/2/pet_food_labels.htm Great one that does not require signing up for another article mentioning protein percent of a raw diet based on dry matter measure http://www.seespotlivelonger.com/art...resh-food.html
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"He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion." - Unknown |
#47
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Well I tried both raw beef and chicken and my Daphne wouldn't touch it.
I have to cook it. |
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