Cesar Milan vs Brad Pattison

[Romeo's #1 Fan]

This was NOT a good thread to start when I promised myself an early sleep before Monday

To answer the question of the thread, I prefer watching Cesar, not because I think he is a magician of the dog world, I don't know that I'm qualified to identify one lol , but because he is calm, and I am more inclined to listen. Brad turned me OFF the moment I saw him, I mean he made me cringe, so while I can't effectively say he's good or bad, I only know how he affected me personally. I loved Dr. Stanley Coren long before I ever had Romeo, his calm nature and those snappy ascots really got my attention.

I am probably VERY guilty of "humanizing" Romeo far more than I ever have my cats - he's too darn cute, I need a little bag over his head with those eyes cut out . I know there are things he does do that he shouldn't, that's far more my fault than his. I am far more the work in progress than he is.

[Ford]

Last warning, any more rudeness or ignorance, and this thread will be shut down.

Your friendly neighbourhood mod,

Ford

[aslan]

Thanks Ford and Carnac.

[animaladvocate]

Originally Posted by Promethean

Well, it was my scenario, one offered as a counter to Lynne's skewed, alarmist tale. And it does have the benefit of being in accordance with our understanding of animal behaviour.

But you are right, just because the pairing is made doesn't mean a dog will always or that all dogs will respond aggressively. Though that is one of the problems with using punishment this way; it is unpredictable.

That's true-it would be dependant on the personality and history of the dog. I just thought it was a jump to say the dog would attack children after that conditioning (looks at child=punishment). I think a more likely scenario would be that the dog would attempt avoidance but it would certainly depend.

[Lynne_B]

Personally I don't think my tale was "alarmist or skewed" because I've seen it happen before. Parents bring their kids to a park and are surprised when a dog grabs something out of their kids hands, and bowls them over, most of the time when a dog is young and excitable of course. A friend of mine also told me about one of her recent visits to a dog park where some lady stood by her car smoking, and her kid ran into the park and started hugging my friend's dog that was sitting nicely. She was very happy that her dog behaved, but 6 months ago it may have been a different story as her dog is a rescue and had a lot of confidence and fear issues to work on. I'm wondering if this person may have been sending her kid into a park on purpose, so she could sue if anything went wrong. They left shortly after they showed up. Now of course this isn't a typical scenario, and maybe she had another reason, but it's still pretty suspicious to me. I just think that no matter how you train your dog, as long as you ARE training your dog its a great thing, and I also think that it's important to learn about different training techniques and choose the one that works for you.

[BenMax]

Originally Posted by Lynne_B

I just think that no matter how you train your dog, as long as you ARE training your dog its a great thing, and I also think that it's important to learn about different training techniques and choose the one that works for you.

Ah the voice of reason LynneB....finally!

[luckypenny]

Originally Posted by Promethean

And mine is based on various published research looking exploring animals exposed to aversives in the presence of neutral objects. The animals learn to associate these objects (like a child in my example) as predictors of the aversive and aggression to this neutral stimulus was the result.

This was exactly the experience we had with one of our dogs which led us to seek other methods of training.

Originally Posted by Promethean

But you are right, just because the pairing is made doesn't mean a dog will always or that all dogs will respond aggressively. Though that is one of the problems with using punishment this way; it is unpredictable.

Exactly. Because the outcome of "positive punishment" can be so unpredictable depending on the dog, we choose to be safe rather than sorry. It's much more difficult to fix negative associations one could have inadvertantly caused, not knowing any better, than to begin with positive training techniques in the first place. Just my .

[BenMax]

Originally Posted by luckypenny

This was exactly the experience we had with one of our dogs which led us to seek other methods of training.



Exactly. Because the outcome of "positive punishment" can be so unpredictable depending on the dog, we choose to be safe rather than sorry. It's much more difficult to fix negative associations one could have inadvertantly caused, not knowing any better, than to begin with positive training techniques in the first place. Just my .

That is a pretty good worth LP.

[Corinthian]

Originally Posted by Promethean

Cesar is another in a long line of trainers who use force to get their point across. His view of wolves is right out of mexican folklore, his application of this folklore to dogs is unjustified and his use of metaphysics is unwarranted and out of place.

His application of punishment to drive a dog into helplessness is not effective in the long term and detrimental to the dog-human relationship. The reason the dogs are often panting when Millan calls them "calm" is because they are highly stressed from the constant punishment.

But he does have something over Pattison; at least Millan doesn't scream at dogs.

PrometheAn, I beg to differ from your claims
First at all, Cesar isn't a trainer in the intrinsic meaning of the word in the sense of teaching them simple commands, like he say:
'I Rehabilitate dogs and train people' he give advice of how understand our dogs on the way they communicate each other and how we need also fulfill their needs.
His physical touches are used to redirect the dog, not harm. The 'pure positive' trainers call to this 'Molding' so then, why the double Standard?
Cesar carries a Reputation of many years of work with the worst dog behaviours, with dogs otherwise are surrendered to shelters where they probably will be euthanized.

'His view of wolves is right out of mexican folklore'
So then we must consider THIS is also part of 'the Mexican folklore'?

'Since this core is evident as much in a tame Wolf as in a toy Poodle, it is clear that neither Domestication nor wildness has altered their True Natures.In the heart of Every Dog is the Spirit of the Wolf that embodies the finer qualities of human nature that we call love and devotion.'
Michael W Fox D.Sc., Ph.D.,IPAN Hon. Veterinary Consultant

'Domestic dogs, which are direct descendants of wolves, are pack animals. Amichien Bonding is based on pack behavior and works with your dog's natural instincts. Like wolves, dogs follow a strict code of hierarchy. They know from the time they are born that their very survival depends on having strong leaders. Many people unintentionally give their dogs mixed signals as to who is in charge, leaving the dog no choice but to assume the role of leader - regardless of whether it is capable of the job.' - Jean Fennell

We should?

'his use of metaphysics'... What you mean? I've never seen use metaphysics!
if you are referring to the word 'Energy', then you are taking out of context that word.

You Must understand there are a big difference BTW
'flooding' 'helplessness' and exposure or desensitization

There are Eustress and Distress
Ask whether the stress has a payoff or reward at the end. Eustress has an incentive, such as a performance bonus at work, while distress Does Not provide a positive outcome.
Note the duration of the stress. Eustress tends to come in short, adrenaline-like bursts.
Distress tends to occur over time, Slowly eating away stress level.
Compare Distress and Eustress based on their nature, not their impact.
The truth: It may take Weeks or Months for your dog to truly overcome deep-rooted fear - and setbacks along the way are to be expected.


well I'll see you soon!

[Promethean]

Originally Posted by Lynne_B

Personally I don't think my tale was "alarmist or skewed" because I've seen it happen before. Parents bring their kids to a park and are surprised when a dog grabs something out of their kids hands, and bowls them over, most of the time when a dog is young and excitable of course.

The tale is alarmist because aside from exaggerating a potential danger, there is also no reason to think it is associated with what you like to call treat training. All you really know (or heard) is that there was a bite, anything else is speculation and shoehorning so it can integrated into your beliefs. Though I'm suspicious because what was presented as a hypothetical scenario has suddenly become a real one.

[Promethean]

Cesar may not claim to be a trainer but that is what he is and as any dog trainer will tell you the main part of the job is to educated the owner on how to train. Training is about modifying behavior, so in whatever language Millan wishes to cloak what he does, in the end he is a dog trainer. What he and you euphemistally call "touches" are either kicks, jabs or leash jerks intended to cause sufficient discomfort as to cause the cessation of a particular behavior.

Because Millan has never studied wolves in the field or in an academic setting he shares a typically folkloric views of wolves. This is clear from the way he describes behaviors that we absolutely know are false yet are recognizable because they have become ingrained in our conciousness. Basically, his view of wolves is straight out of Little Red Riding Hood.

Jan (not Jean) Fennell's views of hierachy and social dynamics is not shared by those who do actual field work on wolves. A neonate doesn' "know" it needs strong leaders, I doubt it knows much at all. What is certain is that it needs a lactating mother, that's what determines its survival. Not leadership..

I suggest you have no idea what metaphysics means. He is constantly referring to some mystical energy that will help you control the dog, he imagines that thinking something can cause it to come true, it's mysticism at its cheapest most base form. And he uses it to sell outdated ideas that have no place in modern training methods.

[BenMax]

Well Promethean he must be doing 'something' right??

Personally I like his message to the public: Spay and neuter and the importance of it.

Promethean - is that a picture of your dog shown by any chance? If so, what have you done to modify this display of 'bad canine behaviour'?

And I am curious...are you a trainer? And if so, what type of trainer are you?

[pattymac]

Judging by the harness the dog in P's profile is wearing and that dog looks like a Malinois, I would bet the he/she is involved in either Schutzhund or some type of protection training. So that behaviour is definately a desired one, not a 'bad dog' display. Uh yes according to P's profile he/she has titled dogs in Schutzhund. Ahh so cool!! Definately jealous here!!

[BenMax]

Originally Posted by pattymac

Judging by the harness the dog in P's profile is wearing and that dog looks like a Malinois, I would bet the he/she is involved in either Schutzhund or some type of protection training. So that behaviour is definately a desired one, not a 'bad dog' display. Uh yes according to P's profile he/she has titled dogs in Schutzhund. Ahh so cool!! Definately jealous here!!

Not something I would want to be promoting. Most of us here are just animal loving enthusists. But thanks for the update.

[pattymac]

Schutzhund is one of the greatest dog sports IMO. The dogs are trained so well that they can turn on and off with a simple command from their handler. I've watched videos on Schutzhund and I think it's French Ring Sport and watching those dogs is just amazing. They have to go through a course with tons of distractions and be able to stay in a heel with all sorts of weird things going on around them. We have a couple in my beg obedience class with 2 young shepherds who are doing Schutzhund. They're coming to class to get more exposure and because the club is in Port Hope and they can only get there once a week. They haven't started doing any 'bitework' yet and are just working on the tracking and obedience. In the obedience part of it, both dogs are awesome. I hope Bayley can become half as attentive and focused as their dogs. Watching the one dog run an agility course is very cool. It's very obvious the dogs love what they're doing, lots of smiling and tail wagging.

[BenMax]

Bitwork? So what type of training is done for this? Is there any physical contact done with the dogs for this? Sorry - very naive about this and very curious. Maybe someone can explain?

[pattymac]

Hey, I'm no expert..ahahah very far from it. It's bitework, dog is trained to bite, on a padded sleeve. From what I've gathered the important part is the dog's ability to hold the bite and then release immediately on command from the trainer/handler. Also the dog has to be able to control the 'bad guy' with barking, ie dog finds the 'bad guy' and sits in front of him, barking. Dog can't touch the person without a command. I'm sure Promethean can give more accurate info than me. It looks so awesome. I watched one video on Youtube where the dog does his thing latching on to the helpers arm and then on command releases then the dog's handler and the helper walk down the field with the dog between them. There's even a Jack Russell doing it...he's one tenacious little dog!

[BenMax]

So then I gather that 'bitwork' requires a certain amount of 'touching' to get the dog to do this then. What would one do if the dog does not release? What type of command is given then? Just curious if Ceaser's taps or quick holds compare to what is trained for bitwork.

Better yet - how is bitwork trained?

Maybe Promethean can enlighten me?

[Promethean]

True, Millan does get some things correct. It's nothing ground breaking - for example Bob Barker was promoting spay/neuter long before Millan ever got involved with dogs.

As PMac notes, the display is on command and an example of good behavior. Personally, I think any type of obedience training should be promoted, from basic CGN/CGC and TT to OD and beyond.

[Blackdog22]

So then I gather that 'bitwork' requires a certain amount of 'touching' to get the dog to do this then. What would one do if the dog does not release? What type of command is given then? Just curious if Ceaser's taps or quick holds compare to what is trained for bitwork.

The foundation for bitework is done while the dog is a puppy. No touching is invloved, it's a game to the dog strictly done in prey until the dog is mature. The dog should not be worked on a bite sleeve until they have a good understanding of the "out" (release) command. While the dogs are young and immature, you always set them up to win, you do not push them past their capabilities, this includes reliability in the out. Releasing is one of the most important things in schutzhund. If the dog will not release, he is useless as a sport dog.

[BenMax]

Originally Posted by Blackdog22

So then I gather that 'bitwork' requires a certain amount of 'touching' to get the dog to do this then. What would one do if the dog does not release? What type of command is given then? Just curious if Ceaser's taps or quick holds compare to what is trained for bitwork.

The foundation for bitework is done while the dog is a puppy. No touching is invloved, it's a game to the dog strictly done in prey until the dog is mature. The dog should not be worked on a bite sleeve until they have a good understanding of the "out" (release) command. While the dogs are young and immature, you always set them up to win, you do not push them past their capabilities, this includes reliability in the out. Releasing is one of the most important things in schutzhund. If the dog will not release, he is useless as a sport dog.

Again - what is done when the dog does not release. Another question - when police train their dogs, is this the same premises? As I have worked with police dog trainers I can tell you that the so called 'touch' is a little more invasive than what Ceaser does.

Thanks.

[Blackdog22]

Police dogs and sport dogs are entirely different. I have no clue how patrol dogs are trained, I'm sure it varies from one department to another.

As for what happens when a dog does not release, that is dependant on the trainers methods. Like with any sport, you have knowledgable experienced trainers and you have people who should probably never own a dog. Any good trainer will not put a dog on a sleeve before it is ready and has proven it is ready, so your scenerio is not as likely as some would like to think. If a seasoned, trained dog does not out, I imagine some form of correction would be given. What type of correction and how severe it is, depends on the dog, situation and the person on the other end of the leash. As with any other type of dog training, there is no right or wrong way, no definitive answer and it's certainly something one cannot generalize.

[Mat&Murph]

Mybe Promethen, if you could explain alittle about it then mybe we could all understand. I know myself I have always been curious about it. I have done agilty and tracking. I know for those we didn't do touch but lots of praise and a favorit toy. Is it the same for bitework??

[BenMax]

Originally Posted by Mat&Murph

Mybe Promethen, if you could explain alittle about it then mybe we could all understand. I know myself I have always been curious about it. I have done agilty and tracking. I know for those we didn't do touch but lots of praise and a favorit toy. Is it the same for bitework??

I as well am very interested. Good that makes two of us.

[Bailey_]

Originally Posted by Promethean

Cesar may not claim to be a trainer but that is what he is and as any dog trainer will tell you the main part of the job is to educated the owner on how to train. Training is about modifying behavior, so in whatever language Millan wishes to cloak what he does, in the end he is a dog trainer. What he and you euphemistally call "touches" are either kicks, jabs or leash jerks intended to cause sufficient discomfort as to cause the cessation of a particular behavior.

Because Millan has never studied wolves in the field or in an academic setting he shares a typically folkloric views of wolves. This is clear from the way he describes behaviors that we absolutely know are false yet are recognizable because they have become ingrained in our conciousness. Basically, his view of wolves is straight out of Little Red Riding Hood.

Jan (not Jean) Fennell's views of hierachy and social dynamics is not shared by those who do actual field work on wolves. A neonate doesn' "know" it needs strong leaders, I doubt it knows much at all. What is certain is that it needs a lactating mother, that's what determines its survival. Not leadership..

I suggest you have no idea what metaphysics means. He is constantly referring to some mystical energy that will help you control the dog, he imagines that thinking something can cause it to come true, it's mysticism at its cheapest most base form. And he uses it to sell outdated ideas that have no place in modern training methods.

Wowza, I've missed a lot since I've been gone!

To bring the convo back to Ceaser and Brad discussion...I thought the above quote was interesting, and yet of course I need to give my cents.

I certainly believe that there is a HUGE difference between giving a dog sufficient amount of discomfort, compared to innterupting the behavior. I've yet to see Ceaser bring pain to any of the dogs on his episodes, and would really be interested in an example if there was one that existed. What I see when he's redirecting behavior is not abusive or painful towards the animal in ANY way.

As most 'trainers' know, you cannot compare education of wolves and wolf theory to dogs. Sure, there are similiarities, but Ceasers lack of studying wolf heiarchy and social dynamics do not make him any less capable for studying dog behavior and rehabilitating them. The accusation against Ceaser that he knows nothing about modern wolf knowledge means nothing, as he is not required to train or rehabilitate WOLVES. Complete difference.

[BenMax]

Originally Posted by Bailey_

Wowza, I've missed a lot since I've been gone!

To bring the convo back to Ceaser and Brad discussion...I thought the above quote was interesting, and yet of course I need to give my cents.

I certainly believe that there is a HUGE difference between giving a dog sufficient amount of discomfort, compared to innterupting the behavior. I've yet to see Ceaser bring pain to any of the dogs on his episodes, and would really be interested in an example if there was one that existed. What I see when he's redirecting behavior is not abusive or painful towards the animal in ANY way.

As most 'trainers' know, you cannot compare education of wolves and wolf theory to dogs. Sure, there are similiarities, but Ceasers lack of studying wolf heiarchy and social dynamics do not make him any less capable for studying dog behavior and rehabilitating them. The accusation against Ceaser that he knows nothing about modern wolf knowledge means nothing, as he is not required to train or rehabilitate WOLVES. Complete difference.

I agree with you 100%. Well written and very well said.

[MerlinsHope]

The controvery continues, but Baily; "well done and well said".

I suggest you have no idea what metaphysics means. He is constantly referring to some mystical energy that will help you control the dog, he imagines that thinking something can cause it to come true, it's mysticism at its cheapest most base form. And he uses it to sell outdated ideas that have no place in modern training methods.

You know, everything has to be taken in it's perspective which often is next to impossible to do on a TV show no matter what the method. He has to appeal to the "masses", often using examples that have to reach the minds of absolute "dolts", ( pardon my expression). I would hate to be in his shoes having to do this.

That being said, Cesar is willing to work with dogs that most trainers are not willing to work with, would have written off, told the owner to euthanize it, or just never called back.

I have to say, that it's been our own experience here that most dogs with behavioural issues come from backgrounds whereby their own owners themselves have behavioural issues ( ducking from the flying tissue boxes ) and enable the dogs so severely that the dog becomes very dysfunctional, whereas the same dog in a different household becomes quite a good dog.

In my view it's about people... not the dogs.
Cheers
MM

[Mat&Murph]

At the risk of not making any sence, I am a firm believer in love and patience in training any kind of dog. If the trainer doesn't respect or Love what he does then the dog will suffer. IMO Ceasar loves what he does and it shows. I have yet to see a dog hurt on his watch and he works with dogs that everybody else would have given up on. With alot of training you have to touch to guide the dog to do whatever it is you want it to do. or use some sort of distraction.

I also believe with a dog that is treated badly with no love or respect. Just a show piece then thats were you run into problems. Or beaten. I know If I got beaten on a daily basis I would attack whoever it was doing it. or just become unstable. We have to expect the same from our furry friends.

[BenMax]

In the past weeks I have a foster that was severly beaten over the years, tied outside, never lived indoors and just withdrawn and removed from everthing and everyone. A beating I am certain he would take without any signs of retaliation or aggression. It's just who he is. To make a long story short - he is doing amazingly well due to understanding, direction, and of course with the aid of my other dog.

On Thursdy I believe another came into my hands - a semi feral 5 month old GSD who has lived in the mountains with a cord around her neck. I was advised that she has been seen loose for 1 month with her brother who was recently killed by a car. I knew for me - I could not handle this as she was unbelievably terrified of everything. I doubt abused, just tramatized. I passed her onto a rescue and behaviouralist I know well. Since then, she has made progress with her and there is more work to do.

Yesterday I was handed a beautiful 10 month old blue nose Staffie. A product of a sick breeder. This dog was beaten, back leg requires x-rays and probably surgery and he has demodex (to be confirmed). He as well, damaged, but has the temperment of a lamb. Soft, tender, trusting.

So I guess what I am getting at is that regardless of the breed, the studies one does on training, techniques or methods the foundation is very simple on how to reach dogs as individuals. The study of behaviour, interaction with humans and animals is an important part on how to approach and help an animal work through their problems.

If trainers or those who understand the fundamentals of training keep an open mind and approach then it only helps the animal in question. There is no set rules, and sometimes it may be trial and error.

I for one, will not bite off more than I can chew. If I do not know how to approach a situation or the training of a certain dog due to the lack of know how - I will consult or pass on to another in order to not hinder or 'ruin' a dog.

Personally, I have learnt from so many whether here on pets or from Ceaser or even Brad. Though I never believed in treat training, I did try it one my foster.....and it worked for one particular problem I was having which was simply to walk through a door.

Learn by others. Whether you like them or not, everyone has something very interesting and new to offer whether it be 'old' school or new concepts.

[bendyfoot]

I agree. IMO there is no single "correct" way to train a dog or to address behavioural issues. You need to work with the individual needs and personalities of each animal. I have used some techniques with one of our dogs that I would not use with another, because it is neither needed nor would it be particularly effective. Anyone who thinks there is a "one size fits all" training approach should give their head a shake.