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  #151  
Old October 1st, 2010, 06:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Loki Love View Post
So, being pro spay/neuter does that mean this forum, in general, is against all kinds of breeding - or only those classified as BYB? The 'rules' would suggest the latter, however discussions would indicate that all breeding is frowned upon.
Some individual members are against all, some just the latter. A poll showing accurate representation of all members hasn't been done as far I know.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Loki Love View Post
To further that, are members that have purchased their pets from reputable breeders going to be frowned upon and have a cloud of shame linked to them?
If this is the case, then there's much hypocricy. Many members, both old and new, have purchased pets from responsible breeders, byb, and puppymills via pet stores.
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  #152  
Old October 1st, 2010, 06:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Loki Love View Post
So, being pro spay/neuter does that mean this forum, in general, is against all kinds of breeding - or only those classified as BYB? The 'rules' would suggest the latter, however discussions would indicate that all breeding is frowned upon.

To further that, are members that have purchased their pets from reputable breeders going to be frowned upon and have a cloud of shame linked to them?

Just curious.
Responsible breeders are difficult to find. No, I am not personally against responsible breeding. Would I like it if good forever homes were found for those pups before the breeding took place? You betcha'! In fact I have been told that good breeders have a waiting list for their pups. Some lists are long with potential adopters waiting years to get a pup. Then there are the dogs that are bred to be working dogs. Normally that is done in a breeding facility with dogs of known temperament. I speak to a gentleman a few times a week who will soon be starting to train his 14th dog. Every one came from the same breeding facility. That kind of breeding I am not against. What I am against is puppy mills, bybs, people who have no idea the harm they can cause a dog just because they want a litter of pups. Sadly there are a lot more of them than there are responsible breeders.

Quote:
Originally Posted by driver8 View Post
Reading Loki Love's post above and a few others that talk about how they got their dogs firm breeders and wondered if this was frowned on, etc - I don't think you need to leave the thread, 14+, but I also don't think I'm so completely off base. I've felt a chill in threads where new (and not so new) people with good intentions are jumped on.
If that is the case maybe it is because of the way those good intentions have been worded? Take a look back at some of these threads you speak of and try seeing it from the other point of view. We are none of us perfect.
Now I do have to go. I have a kitty to feed and give sub-qs to.
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  #153  
Old October 1st, 2010, 06:35 PM
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Originally Posted by driver8 View Post
Do you think it is the prevailing sentiment on the board? I'm not so sure. Definitely the more vocal people are very strong on it.
Actually, after having been here for about 3 years...yes, I do. I think most people here (those who post anyways) are pro S/N...they may beleive in delayed S/N for various reasons (as I do), but I think most beleive that unless you are a reputable ethical breeder (at the very least), then your pets should be snipped at some point (as mine are). And I think that most people (likely because it kind of goes hand in hand with the S/N issue) are also anti-byb (once they learn what it is). I think most people, given time to think about/research/ask questions about matters pertaining to food, want to do the best thing for their animals as much as they are able to within their financial means. I don't think the MAJORITY are completely anti-breeder, though, only a vocal few.
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  #154  
Old October 1st, 2010, 06:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Loki Love View Post
To further that, are members that have purchased their pets from reputable breeders going to be frowned upon and have a cloud of shame linked to them?

Just curious.
One of my dogs wash purchased by my spouse at a pet store before i met her and she didn't know anything about puppymills,,our big guy was purchased from a responsible breeder..From day one that i joined the forum i have never been treated negatively because of where my boys come from. All of my previous pets have been rescues..

I think what some members would like is for all breeding to stop until all the animals in shelters are helped..My personal wish is that we could atleast get rid of the puppymills and byb's..i think that would go along way to help the situation.
  #155  
Old October 1st, 2010, 10:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sew-sew-steve View Post
but if you already answered a question multiple times, your not obliged to do it another time. theres many members here, its bound to get answered.
Don't bet on it. There have been many times lately where a thread remains unanswered for a long time. My feeling is that the "regular" members are getting so tired of having their hands figuratively slapped for stating their opinion that they just aren't bothering to answer. That, IMO, is pretty sad.
For the regular members who are reading this (I know you are ) please correct me if I'm wrong.

May I just add I am impressed as all get out that we have made it to page 6 without any major b****h slapping. 'Course now that I've said that we won't make page 7.
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Last edited by 14+kitties; October 1st, 2010 at 10:59 PM.
  #156  
Old October 1st, 2010, 11:04 PM
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One thing I'd like to point out is that the "rudeness" that is spoken about from the more senior members isn't something that just pours forth because someone joins the board with a different view. I've sat back and watched how it develops and almost without fail the initial reponses to the breeding quesitons, etc are calm and just explain the board's view on spay/neuturing or give some simply advice. When the OP starts to post things that are defensive then you see the members get a little snarky.

This is the reason I think many of these threads are started by trolls. You can see the baiting of the members and eventually the anger comes out.

And, no (forget who posted it earlier), senior members aren't allowed to get away with rudeness, Marko and the mods shut down the threads all the time when things get out of hand. It's not like they allow members to just post whatever they want and ignore it.

And given this is a pro spay/neuter board I think members should be able to state their views clearly. It wouldn't make sense, for instance, for someone who is a Liberal to join a Conservative message board and think if they start posting all sorts of things pertaining to the Liberal party that it isn't going to stir things up. All message boards have a theme running throughout them and that's what creates the whole feel of the board and makes it home for many members.
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  #157  
Old October 1st, 2010, 11:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dracko View Post
One thing I'd like to point out is that the "rudeness" that is spoken about from the more senior members isn't something that just pours forth because someone joins the board with a different view. I've sat back and watched how it develops and almost without fail the initial reponses to the breeding quesitons, etc are calm and just explain the board's view on spay/neuturing or give some simply advice. When the OP starts to post things that are defensive then you see the members get a little snarky.

This is the reason I think many of these threads are started by trolls. You can see the baiting of the members and eventually the anger comes out.

And, no (forget who posted it earlier), senior members aren't allowed to get away with rudeness, Marko and the mods shut down the threads all the time when things get out of hand. It's not like they allow members to just post whatever they want and ignore it.

And given this is a pro spay/neuter board I think members should be able to state their views clearly. It wouldn't make sense, for instance, for someone who is a Liberal to join a Conservative message board and think if they start posting all sorts of things pertaining to the Liberal party that it isn't going to stir things up. All message boards have a theme running throughout them and that's what creates the whole feel of the board and makes it home for many members.

Terrific!!! Very well said!!
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  #158  
Old October 1st, 2010, 11:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cassiek View Post
... or does there seem to be more than the "normal" amount of users who won't have their dog/cat spayed/neutered for a number of reasons lately? [/B]
I just went back and read the opening post. Talk about threadjacking!! This thread has gotten so far off course it's hilarious!! But I think it's helped clear the air a little.
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  #159  
Old October 2nd, 2010, 12:51 AM
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Gosh has this thread ever developed into something I never imagined! I haven't been able to come on all day but was shocked to see how many more responses there have been! It's great... I love open, polite conversation!

Quote:
Originally Posted by 14+kitties View Post
I think the whole part of cassiek starting this thread was to try to say that it is not always the senior members that react badly. Sometimes it's the newbie coming in with preconceived ideas. Should we react to that? No. Do we? Yes. It's human nature.
Actually, I started this thread just to rant about the amount of people I have been noticing lately who are not spaying/neutering their pets and to vent but... I agree. I certainly have witnessed several times senior members responding very politely and tactfully to a new poster who starts a thread on a topic that's pretty "hot" territory and when the OP doesn't get the answer they receive, the OP is the one who becomes hostile and angry and starts spouting off insults. Obviously we are all humans and don't take too kindly to someone screaming at us over the internet when we were being polite in the first place.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dracko View Post

And given this is a pro spay/neuter board I think members should be able to state their views clearly. It wouldn't make sense, for instance, for someone who is a Liberal to join a Conservative message board and think if they start posting all sorts of things pertaining to the Liberal party that it isn't going to stir things up. All message boards have a theme running throughout them and that's what creates the whole feel of the board and makes it home for many members.
Very well put, Dracko. I think everyone is welcome here, but should expect that by joining a thread where many members are involved in what we are and have the opinions we do, they probably will not receive the answers they want. Can we point them in the right direction? Sure. But they need to be realistic too and expect that if they come on a board that is largely pro spay/neuter and start whining about their pregnant dog they left tied up outside to be raped by all the male dogs in the neighbourhood and now have 10 pups to deal with and don't know what to do (yes I had this call last night - good grief), they should not be surprised to expect some backlash. For the most part, I think we are fairly good at keeping our emotions in check

Quote:
Originally Posted by 14+kitties View Post
I just went back and read the opening post. Talk about threadjacking!! This thread has gotten so far off course it's hilarious!! But I think it's helped clear the air a little.
Haha it has for sure! But I think it's been a good conversation.

I don't think anyone here would hold it "against" someone because they purchased their pup from a BYB, pet store, etc. we all make mistakes... I think as long as we learn from them and become educated, it's all good. We have all made mistakes. That being said, if we had a user join that learned how terrible pet stores are etc. and continued to support this after everything they learned on here but decided not to care... we might be a bit upset and somewhat hold them against that.
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  #160  
Old October 2nd, 2010, 04:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cassiek View Post

I don't think anyone here would hold it "against" someone because they purchased their pup from a BYB, pet store, etc. we all make mistakes... I think as long as we learn from them and become educated, it's all good. We have all made mistakes. That being said, if we had a user join that learned how terrible pet stores are etc. and continued to support this after everything they learned on here but decided not to care... we might be a bit upset and somewhat hold them against that.
I agree, I don't think members hold it against anybody who purchases from a byb or pet store, just that they care for their pet.
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  #161  
Old October 2nd, 2010, 04:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dracko View Post
One thing I'd like to point out is that the "rudeness" that is spoken about from the more senior members isn't something that just pours forth because someone joins the board with a different view. I've sat back and watched how it develops and almost without fail the initial reponses to the breeding quesitons, etc are calm and just explain the board's view on spay/neuturing or give some simply advice. When the OP starts to post things that are defensive then you see the members get a little snarky.

This is the reason I think many of these threads are started by trolls. You can see the baiting of the members and eventually the anger comes out.

And, no (forget who posted it earlier), senior members aren't allowed to get away with rudeness, Marko and the mods shut down the threads all the time when things get out of hand. It's not like they allow members to just post whatever they want and ignore it.

And given this is a pro spay/neuter board I think members should be able to state their views clearly. It wouldn't make sense, for instance, for someone who is a Liberal to join a Conservative message board and think if they start posting all sorts of things pertaining to the Liberal party that it isn't going to stir things up. All message boards have a theme running throughout them and that's what creates the whole feel of the board and makes it home for many members.
Exactly how I see things
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  #162  
Old October 2nd, 2010, 06:47 AM
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Just wanted to mention that i have been watching this thread and I'll post in it again at some point.

thx - Marko
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  #163  
Old October 2nd, 2010, 09:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 14+kitties View Post
the "regular" members are getting so tired of having their hands figuratively slapped for stating their opinion that they just aren't bothering to answer. That, IMO, is pretty sad.
For the regular members who are reading this (I know you are ) please correct me if I'm wrong.
You're right 14+ , I for one , has been less active than I was before on this board. And I know others too because there used to be way more threads and posts to read. The board has been less active than since I've joined.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dracko View Post
One thing I'd like to point out is that the "rudeness" that is spoken about from the more senior members isn't something that just pours forth because someone joins the board with a different view. I've sat back and watched how it develops and almost without fail the initial reponses to the breeding quesitons, etc are calm and just explain the board's view on spay/neuturing or give some simply advice. When the OP starts to post things that are defensive then you see the members get a little snarky.

This is the reason I think many of these threads are started by trolls. You can see the baiting of the members and eventually the anger comes out.

And, no (forget who posted it earlier), senior members aren't allowed to get away with rudeness, Marko and the mods shut down the threads all the time when things get out of hand. It's not like they allow members to just post whatever they want and ignore it.

And given this is a pro spay/neuter board I think members should be able to state their views clearly. It wouldn't make sense, for instance, for someone who is a Liberal to join a Conservative message board and think if they start posting all sorts of things pertaining to the Liberal party that it isn't going to stir things up. All message boards have a theme running throughout them and that's what creates the whole feel of the board and makes it home for many members.
Well said and I totally agree Dracko.

And I also feel the rudeness accusations by some , are over dramatic.
  #164  
Old October 2nd, 2010, 11:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dracko View Post
One thing I'd like to point out is that the "rudeness" that is spoken about from the more senior members isn't something that just pours forth because someone joins the board with a different view. I've sat back and watched how it develops and almost without fail the initial reponses to the breeding quesitons, etc are calm and just explain the board's view on spay/neuturing or give some simply advice. When the OP starts to post things that are defensive then you see the members get a little snarky.

I have watched things develop on numerous occasions as well and, yes, I have seen a some threads as you describe. However I have also seen many other threads that go out of whack with no provocation whatsoever from the OP. Also, is not a defensive reaction pretty natural if you feel you are under attack? Fairly recently I saw a thread where the very first response to a newcomer's first post had to be edited by the mod and, in this case, the OP had only asked a very normal question (nothing to do with breeding or spay/neuter or declawing or other "touchy" subjects).

This is the reason I think many of these threads are started by trolls. You can see the baiting of the members and eventually the anger comes out.

I don't see all threads and could very well be missing something but I have seen very few threads started by what I thought to be trolls in recent months and I can't think of any recent ones where members were baited either. I think a lot of that has to do with the excellent job Marko and the mods are doing.

Most of the time, trolls and/or spammers and spambots are caught very quickly and the threads/posts are deleted. Again I could have missed some threads that you saw.


And, no (forget who posted it earlier), senior members aren't allowed to get away with rudeness, Marko and the mods shut down the threads all the time when things get out of hand. It's not like they allow members to just post whatever they want and ignore it.

Yes, I agree that Marko and the mods work very hard and do an excellent job of deleting posts and shutting down threads when it becomes necessary to do so. I do, however, question why threads get out of hand to the point that this needs to be done in the first place. We are all adults here and there is an excellent and very well worded policy in place that clearly states what is and is not acceptable behaviour.

And given this is a pro spay/neuter board I think members should be able to state their views clearly. It wouldn't make sense, for instance, for someone who is a Liberal to join a Conservative message board and think if they start posting all sorts of things pertaining to the Liberal party that it isn't going to stir things up. All message boards have a theme running throughout them and that's what creates the whole feel of the board and makes it home for many members.
Again, I agree with you that members should be able to state their views clearly. However, I also believe that these views can be expressed clearly without attacking the newcomer. I must say that two very recent threads by newcomers on spay/neuter were handled reasonably well and far better than many I have seen in the past. Could this not become more of the norm rather than the exception?

Just my
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  #165  
Old October 2nd, 2010, 02:13 PM
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Also, is not a defensive reaction pretty natural if you feel you are under attack?


I think that’s the point we’ve been trying to make. Do we not have the right to stand up for our rights too or are they moot? Is it only the OP that has a right to accuse and take things the wrong way?
There have indeed been threads where things have taken a turn for the worse. Our words have been so totally taken out of context as to make their original meaning obsolete to anyone but the person who wrote them. The wording has been twisted and turned until “we” look guilty even though they were written with complete innocence. In some cases we have been told we said things which we absolutely did not. We all know threads like that.
Do we then stand by and say “Oh that’s ok. S/he’s a newbie and will learn.”?

Tolerance is a great thing. I suppose we should all try to be more tolerant. But then we probably all would have to take Prozac and see our world through a rose coloured haze. No offense to those that do. Some days I wish I could.

You don’t have to be in rescue to see the reality of what is happening with the pet overpopulation. It’s all over. On TV, in the news, on line, everywhere. All you have to do is open your eyes. I think I have made my points as calmly and clearly as I can. It’s time for someone else to step in. I've taken up enough of this thread.
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Last edited by 14+kitties; October 2nd, 2010 at 02:23 PM.
  #166  
Old October 2nd, 2010, 02:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 14+kitties View Post
Also, is not a defensive reaction pretty natural if you feel you are under attack?


I think that’s the point we’ve been trying to make. Do we not have the right to stand up for our rights too or are they moot? Is it only the OP that has a right to accuse and take things the wrong way?
There have indeed been threads where things have taken a turn for the worse. Our words have been so totally taken out of context as to make their original meaning obsolete to anyone but the person who wrote them. The wording has been twisted and turned until “we” look guilty even though they were written with complete innocence. In some cases we have been told we said things which we absolutely did not. We all know threads like that.
Do we then stand by and say “Oh that’s ok. S/he’s a newbie and will learn.”?

Tolerance is a great thing. I suppose we should all try to be more tolerant. But then we don’t all take Prozac and see our world through a rose coloured haze either. No offense to those that do. Some days I wish I could.
What rights are those, 14+?

An OP has just as much right as anyone else to their opinion. There is a difference between attacking and educating. If I sincerely try to educate and the OP bridles and comes back on the attack, I step away from the thread if I think it's a lost cause--because, after all, it's that person's right to also have their own opinions. But just because they have a different opinion than mine, I don't feel like my rights have been violated. I still hold the same opinions and will say the same thing next time.

Tolerance does go a long way--intolerance of anyone's ideas is a sure-fire way to close them off to education. The world is NOT black and white--it is infinite shades of gray. The trick is finding the grays you like in common and using them to get introduced. Then the education (the change in preference of grays) begins. Until you find some way to meet face to face, you'll never get the chance to educate.

Most the members here are not actively into rescue, and probably most of them were ignorant or at least blind to the problem of puppy mills and bybs when they joined, yet look how many were educated and became long-term members? Now ask how many of them would have stuck around if posts in their first thread were angry or judgmental based on little or no knowledge of their situation? Or angry in the face of their ignorance? A little knowledge can go a long way in clearing up that ignorance, but only if it's given in a way that allows them to hear it. Getting them angry is never going to promote education.
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  #167  
Old October 2nd, 2010, 02:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hazelrunpack View Post

Most the members here are not actively into rescue, and probably most of them were ignorant or at least blind to the problem of puppy mills and bybs when they joined, yet look how many were educated and became long-term members?
Not of puppymills, maybe byb's. You would have to have had your head in the sand for the last 10 years or so. It has been in the news for years.

Also, everybody has different communication skills and how they interpret a post. Some people, me included, don't like to post a lot of wordy words. Others who may interpret my posts as being abrupt and read more into what I am saying than what I intended. That is my style, get to the point immediately. I personally like posts that are the same .
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  #168  
Old October 2nd, 2010, 03:04 PM
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I had no idea what a puppymill was when I joined. If I'd heard the term, it just wasn't something that I had a lot of occasion to think about. Truth--even though I lived in probably the biggest puppymill county of the state. The point is, I learned, and I learned quickly.

Internet communication is difficult--someone coming in, uncertain of themselves, getting an abrupt reply, might well misinterpret and get angry. Doesn't mean abrupt is wrong--just means I might have to explain my view more clearly later. That's easy to do in person, but on a BB, you sometimes don't get that chance to discuss things later. There is so much of human conversation that comes from tone of voice and facial expression--none of that comes across on a BB. So I always try to be more careful when trying to initiate a discussion on a BB than when in person.
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  #169  
Old October 2nd, 2010, 03:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Love4himies View Post

Also, everybody has different communication skills and how they interpret a post. Some people, me included, don't like to post a lot of wordy words. Others who may interpret my posts as being abrupt and read more into what I am saying than what I intended. That is my style, get to the point immediately. I personally like posts that are the same .
That's how I am and why I don't usually post in threads like this. It's often hard to tell if the OP is a troll trying to bait us or is really not aware of answers that seem so obvious to lots of us.

I also can never find the right words in the sad threads ....I'd sooner just reach out and give someone a big hug.
  #170  
Old October 2nd, 2010, 03:15 PM
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Loki Love Loki Love is offline
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Originally Posted by rainbow View Post
It's often hard to tell if the OP is a troll trying to bait us or is really not aware of answers that seem so obvious to lots of us.
Even if it is a 'troll trying to bait' - it's still a chance to educate. Forums are filled with lurkers and those who will NEVER post but only observe and read. Why not take every opportunity to try and educate not only the OP in that case, along with others who may come along and find the thread.

Chances are too, if you don't 'take the bait', the thread will die out quickly after providing some educational guidance and remaining civil. After all, a troll who wishes to bait but doesn't find any often just goes away - but if you provoke and keep poking, they stick around for the fun.


Just my
  #171  
Old October 2nd, 2010, 03:23 PM
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Love4himies Love4himies is offline
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Easy fix: Mods and Admins come up with a standard post that members can copy/paste for a reply to new members that ask about breeding. No arguments, no abrupt posts. Make it a rule that this response must be posted.
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Jasper RIP (2001-2018)
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Snowball RIP (1991-2005)

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  #172  
Old October 2nd, 2010, 03:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Loki Love View Post
Even if it is a 'troll trying to bait' - it's still a chance to educate. Forums are filled with lurkers and those who will NEVER post but only observe and read. Why not take every opportunity to try and educate not only the OP in that case, along with others who may come along and find the thread.

Chances are too, if you don't 'take the bait', the thread will die out quickly after providing some educational guidance and remaining civil. After all, a troll who wishes to bait but doesn't find any often just goes away - but if you provoke and keep poking, they stick around for the fun.


Just my
If it is a troll and you give an educational answer they just answer with something else to tick you off and by that time someone else has joined in and so on until things get taken out of context and then get out of hand. Any lurkers will just roll their eyes at it all and move on to a different thread.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Love4himies View Post
Easy fix: Mods and Admins come up with a standard post that members can copy/paste for a reply to new members that ask about breeding. No arguments, no abrupt posts. Make it a rule that this response must be posted.
I thought there was a sticky posted by 14+ that listed the reasons not to breed but a standard post by the admin/mods would be a great idea as would seem more authorative.

Great idea.
  #173  
Old October 2nd, 2010, 03:55 PM
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cassiek cassiek is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 14+kitties View Post
[B]
You don’t have to be in rescue to see the reality of what is happening with the pet overpopulation. It’s all over. On TV, in the news, on line, everywhere. All you have to do is open your eyes.
Thank you! This was my point from the beginning, is where is people's common sense? I know that some think we are expecting too much from the general public to know this information... but I have thought over this the past few days and still argue my original point... you have to have had your head stuck in the sand and living in Antarctica to not have at least seen something in regards to the importance of spaying/neutering. Sure, there could be more... but really do we need to tattoo it onto people's foreheads to get the point across? I still think the information is out there, people just choose to ignore it or disregard it. You can present all the information, statistics, etc. you want, but at the end of the day you can't force the information on people... there has to be some responsibility.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Love4himies View Post
Not of puppymills, maybe byb's. You would have to have had your head in the sand for the last 10 years or so. It has been in the news for years.
Thank you. My point exactly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hazelrunpack View Post

Internet communication is difficult--someone coming in, uncertain of themselves, getting an abrupt reply, might well misinterpret and get angry. Doesn't mean abrupt is wrong--just means I might have to explain my view more clearly later. That's easy to do in person, but on a BB, you sometimes don't get that chance to discuss things later. There is so much of human conversation that comes from tone of voice and facial expression--none of that comes across on a BB. So I always try to be more careful when trying to initiate a discussion on a BB than when in person.
This is so true, hazel. So much of what comes across to others in conversation has nothing to do with our words at all. It's easy for people to misinterpret what we really mean, I think it's important to use the smilies and explain things as clearly as possible to try and avoid this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Love4himies View Post
Easy fix: Mods and Admins come up with a standard post that members can copy/paste for a reply to new members that ask about breeding. No arguments, no abrupt posts. Make it a rule that this response must be posted.
What a great idea. That way we can have one standard post back to the OP and nothing further, leave it at that. It wouldn't escalate into anything further.
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  #174  
Old October 2nd, 2010, 04:43 PM
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Quote:
Again, I agree with you that members should be able to state their views clearly. However, I also believe that these views can be expressed clearly without attacking the newcomer. I must say that two very recent threads by newcomers on spay/neuter were handled reasonably well and far better than many I have seen in the past. Could this not become more of the norm rather than the exception?
Nothing would make me happier than if this did indeed become the norm. It would be a MUCH better place around here if it did. More members would join, more people would post more regularly, and our efforts in educating the uneducated would be 1 million times better received.

Quote:
Easy fix: Mods and Admins come up with a standard post that members can copy/paste for a reply to new members that ask about breeding. No arguments, no abrupt posts. Make it a rule that this response must be posted.
This is a good idea, a very good idea and the mods and i will write something up. I hope members will use what we have wriiten in an effort to educate newer members.....but it won't become a rule. IF a member wants to answer a breeding post, that is their right.

Just so it's crystal clear, I personally am passionate about spay/neuter. I now personally won't buy from backyard breeders. I respect the work rescuers do immensely. I am proud that rescuers post here and I am super super happy that pets get adopted because of pets.ca

HOWEVER, Dave and I did not start a spay neuter website/forum or an anti-breeding site/forum or a rescue site/forum. The goal of Pets.ca has ALWAYS been general pet information. Always. The PULSE of the forum is the pulse of the forum and it probably represents the majority of active members... that's cool, no issue with that. The 'pulse' makes me proud.... So it's unlikely that breeding posters will get the information they need here. But I will never say that those members are not welcome........and again, if we are nice to them, they might actually think about what they are doing and they might rescue a pet.

I've never said this before but my little Ziglet that just passed a few days ago, came from a backyard breeder 17 years ago. I did not know any better and I am the Admin of this board. I am not a stupid person, but I did NOT know the significance of that decision. I do now. There are millions of people like me. They are not the regulars on this board...but if we ever wanted them to be, this continuing trend of trying to be nicer to uneducated people (like I used to be) is 100% the way to go.

I also wanted to thank the members that are trying harder
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Last edited by marko; October 2nd, 2010 at 04:57 PM.
  #175  
Old October 2nd, 2010, 04:51 PM
driver8 driver8 is offline
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Thanks for that post, Marko. I agree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cassiek View Post
Thank you! This was my point from the beginning, is where is people's common sense? I know that some think we are expecting too much from the general public to know this information... but I have thought over this the past few days and still argue my original point... you have to have had your head stuck in the sand and living in Antarctica to not have at least seen something in regards to the importance of spaying/neutering. Sure, there could be more... but really do we need to tattoo it onto people's foreheads to get the point across? I still think the information is out there, people just choose to ignore it or disregard it. You can present all the information, statistics, etc. you want, but at the end of the day you can't force the information on people... there has to be some responsibility.
Exactly, cassiek -to see it, yes, but to think about what was just on the news and how it applies in your own life and community....

Most people just shake their heads, say "that's too bad" and move on with aspects of life that are otherwise occupying their brain. Just because the info is out there (the truth is out there......) doesn't mean it has been heard.

There is so much info nowadays. People are overwhelmed. For something to sink in, a lot of people do need to be told on an individual basis.

People know there are bad breeders out there, but they don't know the deeper scope of the problem. They just think that breeder they saw on the news is just a "bad" breeder, and "something should be done" about the bad ones. It takes more time and energy to think about the bigger root problems, and there is a lot of competition for people's time and energy these days.

I have to wonder how many of the experts on here who know all about breeders and rescues and pet foods and whatnot - would also get a sigh of exasperation themselves from professionals who work in other areas - their doctor or mechanic or lawyer or elected politicians, etc. "Don't people know ANYTHING?", etc We ALL have "blind spots".
  #176  
Old October 2nd, 2010, 04:58 PM
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Love4himies Love4himies is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marko View Post

This is a good idea, but it won't become a rule. IF a member wants to answer a breeding post, that is their right.

Fair enough, but it gives posters such as myself who may have only a minute or so to post (cause I'm at work and I am blunt), to post something.

I've never said this before but my little Ziglet that just passed a few days ago, came from a backyard breeder 17 years ago. I did not know any better and I am the Admin of this board. I am not a stupid person, but I did NOT know the significance of that decision. I do now. There are millions of people like me. They are not the regulars on this board...but if we ever wanted them to be, this continuing trend of trying to be nicer to uneducated people (like I used to be) is 100% the way to go.
Puddles too was from a byb. Her father was a grand champion, but her momma was never shown and would not be considered to win. Her mother was owned by a millionaire so her life was pretty, ummmm comfy. I think because momma was owned by somebody quite famous in Edmonton, the parents of the grand champion agreed to the mating. I know from talking to the owner of the father that they do not usually allow their champions to breed with just any kitty.
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Jasper RIP (2001-2018)
Sweet Pea RIP (2004?-2014)
Puddles RIP (1996-2014)
Snowball RIP (1991-2005)

In a cat's eye, all things belong to cats.-English Proverb

“While we are free to choose our actions, we are not free to choose the consequences of our actions.” Stephen R. Covey
  #177  
Old October 2nd, 2010, 09:51 PM
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cassiek cassiek is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by driver8 View Post
Thanks for that post, Marko. I agree.

Exactly, cassiek -to see it, yes, but to think about what was just on the news and how it applies in your own life and community....

Most people just shake their heads, say "that's too bad" and move on with aspects of life that are otherwise occupying their brain. Just because the info is out there (the truth is out there......) doesn't mean it has been heard.

Exactly my point. You can lead a horse to water but can't make them drink - eventually people need to realize it for themselves. My argument is that the info is out there, it just isn't heard. I really don't see how these rescues organizations can get the information to people better than what they do now.

There is so much info nowadays. People are overwhelmed. For something to sink in, a lot of people do need to be told on an individual basis.

People also need to take responsibility themselves and do some good research - whether that is joining a forum such as this, talking to their vet, visiting a dog show, going to the library, researching on the web etc. Sure, there's alot of information out there. And alot of information that can even contradict itself. Its the individuals responsibility to learn as much as they can and make up their own mind.


People know there are bad breeders out there, but they don't know the deeper scope of the problem. They just think that breeder they saw on the news is just a "bad" breeder, and "something should be done" about the bad ones. It takes more time and energy to think about the bigger root problems, and there is a lot of competition for people's time and energy these days.

If people are looking into getting a pet, which can be a commitment for 15+ years is the time and energy to research all aspects of pet ownership not worthwhile?

I have to wonder how many of the experts on here who know all about breeders and rescues and pet foods and whatnot - would also get a sigh of exasperation themselves from professionals who work in other areas - their doctor or mechanic or lawyer or elected politicians, etc. "Don't people know ANYTHING?", etc We ALL have "blind spots".
Yes we do. But I don't choose to medicate myself, fix my own car, or do my own legal work. But I choose to have a pet, and as such since no one else can be a better "expert" than the pet owner himself, you really are the best person to become the most educated you can about your pet. After all, it is you making the decisions for your pet.
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  #178  
Old October 2nd, 2010, 09:53 PM
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14+kitties 14+kitties is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cassiek View Post
Yes we do. But I don't choose to medicate myself, fix my own car, or do my own legal work. But I choose to have a pet, and as such since no one else can be a better "expert" than the pet owner himself, you really are the best person to become the most educated you can about your pet. After all, it is you making the decisions for your pet. [/I]

Very well said!
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Assumptions do nothing but make an ass out of u and me.

We can stick our heads in the sand for only so long before it starts choking us. Face it folks. The pet population is bad ALL OVER THE WORLD!
  #179  
Old October 2nd, 2010, 10:00 PM
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cassiek cassiek is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marko View Post
Nothing would make me happier than if this did indeed become the norm. It would be a MUCH better place around here if it did. More members would join, more people would post more regularly, and our efforts in educating the uneducated would be 1 million times better received.

This is a good idea, a very good idea and the mods and i will write something up. I hope members will use what we have wriiten in an effort to educate newer members.....but it won't become a rule. IF a member wants to answer a breeding post, that is their right.

Just so it's crystal clear, I personally am passionate about spay/neuter. I now personally won't buy from backyard breeders. I respect the work rescuers do immensely. I am proud that rescuers post here and I am super super happy that pets get adopted because of pets.ca

HOWEVER, Dave and I did not start a spay neuter website/forum or an anti-breeding site/forum or a rescue site/forum. The goal of Pets.ca has ALWAYS been general pet information. Always. The PULSE of the forum is the pulse of the forum and it probably represents the majority of active members... that's cool, no issue with that. The 'pulse' makes me proud.... So it's unlikely that breeding posters will get the information they need here. But I will never say that those members are not welcome........and again, if we are nice to them, they might actually think about what they are doing and they might rescue a pet.

I agree with you 100% Marko... I don't think someone who is looking for breeding info will find what they are looking for here... however everyone and anyone is welcome to join as far as I am concerned.

I've never said this before but my little Ziglet that just passed a few days ago, came from a backyard breeder 17 years ago. I did not know any better and I am the Admin of this board. I am not a stupid person, but I did NOT know the significance of that decision. I do now. There are millions of people like me. They are not the regulars on this board...but if we ever wanted them to be, this continuing trend of trying to be nicer to uneducated people (like I used to be) is 100% the way to go.

I also wanted to thank the members that are trying harder
We have all made mistakes... myself included. That's not really the issue here... as long as we learn from our mistakes, certainly no one is going to be looked down upon because of the mistakes they have made raising their pets, we have all been there. I myself have purchased a dog from a BYB and had no idea at the time that there was anything wrong with going to purchase a pup that was advertised in the local paper. But I know better now, and we will rescue dogs from here on in for life.

Good conversation, everyone!
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  #180  
Old October 2nd, 2010, 10:06 PM
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14+kitties 14+kitties is offline
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I don't think someone who is looking for breeding info will find what they are looking for here.

Yep, yep they will. We do have breeders, or people who used to breed, here now. They have and will answer breeding questions.
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Assumptions do nothing but make an ass out of u and me.

We can stick our heads in the sand for only so long before it starts choking us. Face it folks. The pet population is bad ALL OVER THE WORLD!

Last edited by 14+kitties; October 3rd, 2010 at 04:16 PM.
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