How is your dog doing on higher protein kibble?

[Scott_B]

Prin, may I suggest a few drool towels from the dollar store

We have the placed all over the house, just in case

And thanks for the kind words! Yes hes growing very well.

[Kristin7]

Some interesting reading below... trying to answer the question about large breed puppies and protein content. Not sure if high protein is a problem, and did read that not enough protein is. Protein must be high quality, though. How much is enough? I do wish that recommended levels for various breeds/sizes were known, but haven't seen anything like that published. It seems that what is most important is a correctly balanced diet (whatever that means), and yes, calcium intake must be watched, but that is not the whole story as other vitamins/minerals will affect its absorption. Also important is not to overfeed growing large breed puppies (no free feeding!). But, Scott is right, followup should be done on these dogs when they're older. Beautiful dog, by the way! These studies all seem to have their faults in some way and it is good to read them critically, and go to the original study, not to just read an article describing the study, as that is how results get misinterpreted. I have read articles claiming supporting evidence cited in another article, went back and read the other article myself only to find out the authors are wrong/misinterpreting what said article is claiming. Also, depending on the researchers methods, results can seem contradictory between studies. If things are not done exactly the same way, it is certainly possible and even likely to get different results. This isn't meaning the results are necessarily wrong or even contradictory, but that nutrition in animals is quite complicated and it is difficult to zero in on one factor responsible for things that go wrong w/ our dogs, such as arthritis in large breeds. I would guess to do better studies would be quite expensive and time consuming, so they do what they can with less dogs and less time. Really, if however you are feeding your pet seems to be working for him or her, I'd keep doing it, and if you feel like something is not right, keep looking for the right food or combo of foods until your pet is healthy and happy (and we get great advice about that here in this forum!) What works for some may not for others. Sorry for such a long post...

http://www.vetsurgspec.com/print/news2.html

http://www.ilovemypet.com/jackart.html

http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl...tein+content%2

Growth and skeletal development in Great Dane pups fed different levels of protein intake.
J Nutr. 1991 Nov;121(11 Suppl):S107-13.
Department of Clinical Sciences of Companion Animals, Faculty of Veterinary Medicine, University of Utrecht, The Netherlands.
Feeding a dog of a large breed with a diet exceeding the National Research Council (1974) recommendations for energy, protein, calcium, phosphorus and vitamin D may result in disturbances of skeletal development. The effects of excess energy and various calciumhosphorous ratios per se have been reported by others. The role of dietary protein, especially with regard to calcium metabolism and skeletal development, in large breed-dogs is reported in this article. Seventeen Great Dane pups, 7 wk of age, were divided into three groups. During 18 wk each group received isoenergetic dry food (approximately 15 kJ metabolizable energy/g) containing 31.6, 23.1 or 14.6% protein on dry matter basis. No differences were found among the high (H-Pr), normal (N-Pr) and low protein (L-Pr) groups for the height at the shoulder. Significant differences were found between the H-Pr and L-Pr groups for body weight and plasma albumin and among all three groups for plasma urea. The differences in protein intake per se had no demonstrable consequences for calcium metabolism and skeletal development. A causative role for dietary protein in the development of osteochondrosis in dogs is unlikely.


http://jas.fass.org/cgi/content/full/81/6/1568
Hormonal regulation of calcium homeostasis in two breeds of dogs during growth at different rates1
M. A. Tryfonidou*,2, M. S. Holl*, M. Vastenburg, M. A. Oosterlaken-Dijksterhuis*, D. H. Birkenhäger-Frenkel, W. E. van den Brom* and H. A. W. Hazewinkel*
* Department of Clinical Sciences of Companion Animals and Division of Diagnostic Imaging,Faculty of Veterinary Medicine, Utrecht University, 3508 TD Utrecht, The Netherlands; and Department of Pathology, Erasmus University, Rotterdam, The Netherlands
Implications:
Growing giant-breed dogs are more susceptible to developing skeletal disorders than small-breed dogs when raised on a diet with deficient or excessive Ca content. Even at an optimal calcium intake, giant- breed dogs have more irregular growth plates with manifestation of moderate disorders of endochondral ossification than small-breed dogs. This phenomenon may be related to differential regulation of Ca homeostasis and skeletal growth between breeds. Giant-breed dogs grow rapidly and have high plasma concentrations of growth-regulating factors, which in turn may influence vitamin D3 metabolism, whereby 1,25-dihydroxyvitamin D3 is favored over 24,25-dihydroxyvitamin D3. Consequently, a relative deficiency of 24,25-dihydroxyvitamin D3 may be a pathophysiological factor responsible for the increased incidence of skeletal disorders, in addition to the potential growth factors and calcitonin. It remains to be elucidated whether vitamin D3 supplementation would facilitate optimal growth in giant-breed dogs.

[technodoll]

Great post Kristen!

Scott, hims beaaauuutimous! OMG i just want to ninja that boy!

Prin, send over some of that Jemma appetite cuz neither of my kids like the Evo RM They'll have to eat it anyways but what a let-down. sigh!!

[Kristin7]

hey, here's a book (free reading on recommended nutrient requirements):
http://newton.nap.edu/catalog/10668.html

[Kristin7]

bummer, you can't read all of it, only parts, but the info is out there, possibly in a library near you.

[Prin]

Anybody know why Jemma spent half the night up drinking? It worries me. The horror stories are always about the kidneys and I don't want my baby's kidneys to get damaged.

[SuperWanda]

Prin - my vet is ok with high protein diets but did say to watch for increased thirst. I'm not sure what would be considered abnormal however.

I just took my dog back to the vet and the anal gland problem is not the cause for her pain. I am a little upset about this because she is only 5 and has diskospondylosis. The x-rays I had done today shows these spiny projections that have developed off her tail bones and this is why she was having pain when going to the bathroom. She can't lift her tail. This is a type of arthritis and the inflammation and spiny projections can pinch nerves and cause pain.

Apparently the only thing to do is give her anti-inflammatory meds and glucosamine supplement. Hopefully if the inflammation is reduced than the pressure on the nerves will be reduced.

I'm just really sad about this because there is no cure and it sounds like something that gets worse with age. The vet was surprised she has it at age 5! What will her motility be like in a few years??

Maybe I will post this in another section to see if anyone else knows about this type of arthritis.

[Prin]

I'm sorry for your doggy's diagnosis.

When he said "watch out" for increased thirst, did he say what it meant?

[SuperWanda]

Not really - I took it to mean a thirst that is not typically normal for your dog. Sometimes if it is hot or dry or my dogs have had a lot of exercise they may drink more. One of my dogs takes in more water than the other. She is often up at night drinking a few times.

If you think it is a abnormal, insatiable thirst I would maybe ask the vet about it.

Is she still drinking a lot today? Peeing ok?

[rainbow]

SuperWanda, I'm sorry to hear about the diagnosis too.

I've also heard that if your dog drinks alot more when they're being fed a high protein diet that you should stop feeding it. I'll see what i can find out.

[Prin]

I was going to say she isn't drinking too much today, but just as I clicked "post reply" she started drinking again... Maybe tonight I'll give her just DVP and see what happens. (still drinking- just finished...) Do you think the salmon oil I've been giving her might be salty? I hate all this uncertainty crap.

[technodoll]

prin, i would monitor her drinking behavior over the weekend and then take it from there, if she's acting perfectly normal and healthy... some days we (and dogs!) just drink more than others "just because". If you have any doubts, then next week take her in for a blood test?

lots of protein is actually GOOD for dog kidneys, not bad... i think that was just a myth, that has now been dispelled... could the girly-girl have gotten any new treats? hmm.

are we good parents, or what?! LOL

(( hugs to jemma! ))

[rainbow]

I'd stop the salmon oil and see if she still continues to drink lots.

[Prin]

Yeah, but she's had the treats all week (wellness whitefish cookies). I dunno. Maybe I'll just cut out the fish oil tonight and see what happens. It smells salty... I hope she's ok.

I was all happy with the fish oil too... It got rid of her dandruffies in two days. TWO days!
(lol rainbow- I was posting while you posted...)

[meb999]

Buster is on half Evo half Nutro lamb/rice (I know...I know....but I got pressured into buying a big bag of it, and never had the courage to actually return it. Once it's finished, I'll be mixing the EVO with a better food.....)
And I've also noticed that ever since I upped the EVO to half, he's been drinking more. But he's peeing ok, so Maybe Evo is just dryer then other foods? Or more dense, therefor needing more water to get absorbed?

[Kristin7]

Found this rather comprehensive site about feeding that might be of interest, unless it has already been posted here somewhere.

http://www.dogaware.com/dogfeeding.html

I'd be alarmed about a dog drinking more than usual, it could be kidney related, never know. Can you measure the amount your dog is drinking?

[mafiaprincess]

I know a raw feeder who used evo while camping once.. said never again because he found how thirsty his dogs were was a cause for concern, but apparently it was more insatiable rather than just a little more than usual.. Though I hear on raw due to meat water content they drink less or can.. So maybe the switch for his dogs from not much to more seemed like a weird amount.

[rainbow]

I couldn't find the information I was looking for. All I could find was this post from another forum:



Hi Listers,
I have been feeding my seven year old EVO for about a year now.
He has started drinking and urinating lots and lots. We did a complete senior blood panel, including a complete urine panel, all came back normal. Also no starting of Cushings. My Vet is wondering whether his food could cause this, like maybe to much salt in the kibble? Has anybody else feeding EVO had problems like this, please? Other problems?



I've never fed Evo. Been flamed hundreds of times for saying this, but I'll repeat it until I'm blue in the face. Evo has to be one of the most dangerous and misleading foods on the market today. The protein levels are unheard of.

Its NOT the protein that irks me. I'm not going to say high protein diets are harmful - I don't believe htey are, per se. However, Evo goes beyond being high protein.

The fact is that raw meat is a LOW protein food when compared to the levels of protein in commercial foods. Chicken is about 16% protein. BARFers, or even home cookers will NEVER add as many protein sources in one meal to raise the levels to match Evo.

I fed raw in the past, and feed homecooked/kibble now. When preparing foods, the first rule is to add variety over time. Don't try to throw the
kitchen sink into one meal! Evo uses chicken, turkey, egg, fish, etc in one meal to get the levels to 40+%. No dog or wolf would ever eat that amount of protein sources in one day - and then continue to do so every day for months, years ...

With the high protein comes extremely high levels of phosporous. Evo can add all the calcium to balance out the cal/phos ratio, but the phos levels are STILL far exceeding safe, normal levels. Excessive phosporous is filtered out through the kidneys and is the major cause of renal dysfunction/failure. Evo can possibly burden the kidneys of succeptable dogs, especially older ones.

JMHO, but if it were me, I'd try switching to a food with moderate protein levels and a phos level of no higher than 1.0 for an older dog. It would present much less of a strain on the kidneys, which could be the main reason for the excessive thirst. Keep us updated.


**The above post is not "mine"....I'm just the messenger.

[technodoll]

i think Evo is a good product, used in moderation... as PART of a balanced diet but then again eating *anything* as a single source of food, day in and day out for years... it's asking for trouble, IMO

[Prin]

Aye there's the catch- we're looking at protein, when we should be looking at phosphorus. And I knew that too. Duh. Either way, Evo was never meant to be my doggies first food... But it was good for the transition.

[technodoll]

prin what will be the secondary food, if still feeding evo, will that be just as an addition?...

[Prin]

so far it's dvp sweet tater and fish... that one is pretty low protein so they should balace out. When I'm conscious again, I'll email innova for their phosporus levels.

[rainbow]

Originally Posted by Prin

Aye there's the catch- we're looking at protein, when we should be looking at phosphorus. And I knew that too. Duh. Either way, Evo was never meant to be my doggies first food... But it was good for the transition.

So, what's your plan now?

[Prin]

no idea. I still haven't found a food I'm 100% satisfied with yet.

[rainbow]

You posted faster than me and must have read my mind.

[Prin]

it's ok, just because I'm feeding something doesn't mean I have a plan.

[rainbow]

Here you go:



Innova EVO Red Meat


Moisture 10.0 %

Protein 42.0 %

Fat 22.0 %

Linoleic Acid 1.2 %

Omega 3 0.40 %

Carbohydrates 15.37 %

Fiber 2.50 %

Ash 9.77 %

Calcium 2.31 %

Phosphorous 1.34 %

Magnesium 0.15 %

Sodium 0.54 %

Potassium 0.83 %

Chloride 0.80 %

Iron 260 mg/Kg

Zinc 305 mg/Kg

Copper 18 mg/Kg

Iodine 3.2 mg/Kg

Manganese 22 mg/Kg

Selenium 0.62 mg/kg

Arginine 2.74 %

Histidine 1.06 %

Isoleucine 1.99 %

Leucine 3.31 %

Lysine 3.21 %

Methionine 1.12 %

Met-Cysteine 1.64 %

Phenylalanine 2.05 %

Phe-Tyrosine 3.65 %

Threonine 1.96 %

Tryptophan 0.38 %

Valine 2.40 %

Taurine 0 %

Choline 2877 mg/Kg

Vitamin B2 (Riboflavin) 5.82 mg/Kg

Vitamin B1 (Thiamine) 4.10 mg/Kg

Vitamin B3 (Niacin) 44 mg/Kg

Vitamin B6 (Pyridoxine) 4.88 mg/Kg

Folic Acid 1.29 mg/kg

Vitamin B5 (Pantothenic Acid) 18 mg/Kg

Biotin 0.09 mg/Kg

Vitamin B12 (Cyanocobalamin) 3 ug/Kg

Vitamin A 21209 Iu/Kg

Vitamin C 3 mg/Kg

Vitamin D3 (Cholecalciferol) 2003 Iu/Kg

Vitamin E 250 Iu/Kg

Vitamin K1 0 ug/Kg

Glucosamine 0 mg/cup

Chondroitin Sulfate 0 mg/cup

Calories 1834 Kcal/lb

Calories 4035 Kcal/Kg

Calories 487 KCals/Cup

[technodoll]

i read that calcium and phosphorous should be fed at the ratio of around 1.2 parts of calcium for each 1 part of phosphorous (1.2:1) - this would make the EVO a bit unbalanced, or is my math off?

[rainbow]

This is the REGULAR Innova (the one I feed)



Innova


Moisture 10.0 %

Protein 24.0 %

Fat 14.0 %

Linoleic Acid 2.6 %

Omega 3 0.50 %

Carbohydrates 40.6 %

Fiber 3.0 %

Ash 7.90 %

Calcium 1.10 %

Phosphorous 1.00 %

Magnesium 0.10 %

Sodium 0.35 %

Potassium 0.65 %

Chloride 0.49 %

Iron 569 mg/Kg

Zinc 250 mg/Kg

Copper 9 mg/Kg

Iodine 1.7 mg/Kg

Manganese 47 mg/Kg

Selenium 0.31 mg/kg

Arginine 1.83 %

Histidine 0.62 %

Isoleucine 1.10 %

Leucine 1.98 %

Lysine 1.72 %

Methionine 0.73 %

Met-Cysteine 1.06 %

Phenylalanine 1.01 %

Phe-Tyrosine 1.83 %

Threonine 0.96 %

Tryptophan 0.40 %

Valine 1.32 %

Taurine 0.19 %

Choline 1737 mg/Kg

Vitamin B2 (Riboflavin) 9.96 mg/Kg

Vitamin B1 (Thiamine) 3.66 mg/Kg

Vitamin B3 (Niacin) 61 mg/Kg

Vitamin B6 (Pyridoxine) 5.00 mg/Kg

Folic Acid 1.55 mg/kg

Vitamin B5 (Pantothenic Acid) 19 mg/Kg

Biotin 0.55 mg/Kg

Vitamin B12 (Cyanocobalamin) 72 ug/Kg

Vitamin A 21000 Iu/Kg

Vitamin C 500 mg/Kg

Vitamin D3 (Cholecalciferol) 786 Iu/Kg

Vitamin E 300 Iu/Kg

Vitamin K1 928 ug/Kg

Glucosamine 0 mg/cup

Chondroitin Sulfate 0 mg/cup

Calories 1895 Kcal/lb

Calories 4168 Kcal/Kg

Calories 557 KCals/Cup

[Prin]

Originally Posted by technodoll

i read that calcium and phosphorous should be fed at the ratio of around 1.2 parts of calcium for each 1 part of phosphorous (1.2:1) - this would make the EVO a bit unbalanced, or is my math off?

Well, judging by the regular innova, that looks like it's almost true.

The calcium levels in Evo are pretty crazy. Definitely not suitable for large breed puppies. The phosphorus is much higher than the Wellness formulas people suspected of causing kidney failure, too.

Originally Posted by Wellness formula phosphorus

Puppy=1.33% as fed
Chicken =1.01% as fed
Lamb=1.06% as fed
Fish=1.06% as fed
Senior=0.85% as fed
Wt. Mgt=0.93% as fed
Duck=0.96% as fed
Venison=1.26% as fed

Check out the vitamin C in evo- almost nonexistant. And no vitamin K either. No taurine... No, definitely not balanced, IMO...

And DVP sweet potato and fish:
Crude Protein 21.0% minimum
Crude Fat 10.0% minimum
Crude Fiber 3.0% maximum
Moisture 10.0% maximum
Calcium 1.0% minimum
Phosphorus 0.9% minimum
Omega 3 Fatty Acids 0.5% minimum
Docosahexaenoic Acid (DHA) 0.01% minimum
Omega 6 Fatty Acids 3.0% minimum

What to do, what to do!?