#1
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Question on raw and kibble together
Sorry if this has already been asked, I'm looking for a quick response 'cause I just suddenly decided today I might start feeding one of my dogs raw since he seems to like it so much, and no stomach upset ( yet anyway)
I'm kind of scared to just suddenly switch to raw, since because it's not something I really considered much before I haven't read extensively about it. My dog Royce has never really done well on kibble, even though we switched to TO he hasn't really started putting on muscle like I hoped. He has hip dysplasia so I hate to see him not in perfect condition, since it puts more strain on his joints. He's also still constipated which I hoped would get better by switching to TO but apparently not. Well today we were cutting up venison, I saved EVERY single part even the ones I wasn't sure about because I refuse to waste anything and I figured most of it is something the dogs could benefit from. Well I gave Walnut and Royce both a rib bone, which they chewed well and ate, and a shank bone which they ate the meat off of, but I made sure they didn't eat the bone because I don't want them to become constipated. Well Walnut, who didn't even eat much meat threw up 4 times (luckily she stopped pretty quick and has been fine since), so she apparently doesn't take well to raw meat. Royce LOVED the meat, we even gave him some more and he ate it all up (something he NEVER does with kibble), and he seems fine. He even kept looking for more but we limited it just in case his stomach gets upset. So anyway, my question - how ok is it to feed kibble and raw together? TO says their food is ok to feed with raw, and I'm scared if I just switch straight to raw, not knowing much about it, that I'll feed too much bone or not enough bone and cause problems, since I'm not sure what the ratio should be. Oh yeah, I'm also curious as to whether most butchers can grind bones. There were several bones that didn't really look safe for chewing (really sharp parts), and I was wondering if they could be ground up and added to meat. Sorry if I seem extremely ignorant on this subject. Raw just isn't something I've studied or read a lot about, so I'm fairly lost. I just want Royce to have the best diet he can and currently kibble isn't doing it. I would switch Walnut, but yeah, the throwing up kind of scared me so I'll stick with kibble at this point for her since she does well on it so far. |
#2
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well first... most raw feeders say to deep-freeze venison for a few days to kill any parasites in the meat (wild meat, in general, is supposed to follow this guideline) so if you want to continue feeding raw wild game, you should do this first "just in case"
second, it's perfectly ok to feed raw, boneless meat with kibble (same meal) although you might need to add a digestive enzyme since not all dogs have an easy time digesting the two together. if you want to feed kibble for one meal, and then raw for the 2nd meal, then it's ok to feed raw meat with bones some butchers will grind up soft bones (poultry), some won't... as a general rule though, it's the thick weight-bearing bones that aren't consumable and are to be used as recreational bones only (pork, goat, cow, deer, etc). a lab-sized dog can eat a whole small chicken in one meal, no problem, from head to tail Note: Venison is a rich meat, which may explain Walnut's vomiting. If you want to try again, try a 24-hour fast first to completely empty the GI tract out, then start with an easy protein such as skinless chicken legs, or just raw chicken. you might be pleasantly surprised, just ask some of the raw-feeders here on their "conversion" experiences if you have specific questions that aren't answered in any posts in this sub-forum, fire away! we love to help! and CONGRATULATIONS for wanting to switch your boy(s) to the diet that's best for them... you will probably see improved muscle tone and energy in your dysplastic boy, and less joint pain too!
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"Let Thy Food Be Thy Medicine" Take nothing but pictures, leave nothing but footprints. :love: ~Akitas Are Love~ :love: |
#3
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What abone the meat/bone ratio, how much bone should I let him eat? I'm deathly afraid I'll feed too much bone (even though I just gave one small rib) and he'll get really constipated, or I'll feed not enough bone. Or are bones even necessary for anything besides chewing? I heard meat contains most of the necessary nutrients and very little bone if any at all is needed. Like I said though, my raw knowledge is almost nonexistant. |
#4
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Oh yeah, I wondered about the amount of fat too.
Should I be trimming all the fat off of the meat, leaving some on, or not trimming it at all? Venison is really lean but it has a layer of fat on the outside of most cuts, how do I know if I'm giving too much/little fat, or does it matter? |
#5
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Thank you for taking the time to respond, btw.
I'm reading several things at once and a bit distracted/tired so I may have seemed a bit impolite. |
#6
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I still give him the ester-C with his raw though.
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Courage is being scared to death and saddling up anyways. ~John Wayne |
#7
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How long was he on the diet before you started noticing a difference? Royce isn't even a year old, and he doesn't seem to be in any pain yet, but his hip dysplasia is definately noticeable. At 4 months when we got him his x-rays showed pretty severe hip malformation which is why I want to get his body in good condition as soon as possible. This is the first time he's ever shown much interest in any type of food much less actually loved it, and I noticed he wasn't belching afterward like right after he eats his kibble. The belching worries me because it means his kibble is producing gas, which is bad since being a deep chested dog he's prone to bloat. |
#8
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I noticed a difference in approx 3 weeks. (Thats when I removed the extra tablets) and he hasnt showed that he needs them yet.
How sad for Royce such a young life and already leg isses. :sad: There is one thing I cant get used to with the raw and thats when they throw it up andgive it another shot That still wrenches my stomach when it happens. So now I just leave the room while they are eating, just in case. At first I would watch them like a hawk incase they choked but hasnt happened yet. And I doubt it will. They know what they are doing.
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Courage is being scared to death and saddling up anyways. ~John Wayne |
#9
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60% meat 10-15% organ meats 15-20% bone the rest = others such as eggs, whole fish, pulped veggies if you like, etc You NEED to add bone to the diet to balance the phosphorus/calcium ratio, an all-meat diet is a disaster waiting to happen. As for the fat, it really depends on what your dog can tolerate... some dogs can only eat a little before they get the runs, others can eat a ton and always be ok however i would try to keep it lean and trim off the big white visible fats, but leave the naturally-occuring "marbled" fat in meats intact, as well as most of the poultry skin that is not loose and hanging. Erykah, neither of my dogs has EVER vomited a raw meal... the only upchucking i've seen (and very rarely) is an undigested bone fragment a few days after being swallowed, it's the body's way of getting rid of something that won't go down i guess. Every dog is different eh? But yeah... some dogs will eat too fast, too big pieces, and then it comes up again to be re-eaten slowly. Have you tried feeding bigger, more awkward pieces, or serve semi-frozen to slow them down? it might help!
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"Let Thy Food Be Thy Medicine" Take nothing but pictures, leave nothing but footprints. :love: ~Akitas Are Love~ :love: |
#10
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They eat whole things, i dont cube them up or anything, and its just really Kita who I think gets so excited that she tries to wolf it down... Not that its a full out vomit but she regularly " hacks" peices up, and then goes to town again. Im not too worried about it though, i really think that she just gets way to happy and excited to eat when she sees im not cramming kibble down her throat.
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Courage is being scared to death and saddling up anyways. ~John Wayne |
#11
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awee.... you go, kita-girl!
but isn't it just beautiful to see a dog eating what they're supposed to eat? and loving it? and then you see the difference in their condition, energy, mood, health, etc?
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"Let Thy Food Be Thy Medicine" Take nothing but pictures, leave nothing but footprints. :love: ~Akitas Are Love~ :love: |
#12
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Rosco does that. He'll give something a good crunch crunch, will get it to a size he likes then try and swallow it. If its still to big, he'll bring it back up and give it a few more chomps to where he has it the size that goes down smooth. I agree with the gagging sound though. I've actually gagged myself a few times when hes done it. lol But I'm getting used to it. I don't leave him though. I'll go in the next room but i can still watch/listen to him. Just in the off case he does choke, I want to be there, not walk in 2min too late.
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Please please please give Maggie the steak! Its not too big for her little mouth! Their impression of power is remarkable. They give one the feeling of immense reserves of energy, of great reservoirs of knowledge, of tolerance of disposition, obstinacy of purpose, and tenacity of principle. They are responsive, and they have a lot of quiet, good sense. -J. Wentworth Day, from The Dog in Sport, 1938 |
#13
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Should I be weighing the bones and meat or just eyeing it? Is it also ok to feed fruits as a treat? Royce and Walnut both love fruit, and I don't mash it up but it's usually soft fruits like ripe pears or melon anyway. They're not really into veggies, so I usually don't feed it, unless I have some cooked carrots or something leftover which they like 'cause it's sweet. |
#14
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Oh, and as an update, Royce still hasn't had any stomach upset or anything, so I guess raw agrees with him.
I fed him his normal kibble this morning, but I'm going to give him raw tonight after the meat thaws in the fridge a bit. |
#15
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of course you can feed some fruit as snacks! you can feed anything you like, the beauty if this way of feeding is "balance over time". meals do not need to be "perfect", you can skip bones some days and feed more other days, feed fish one day and then later during the week, give a whole deer's butt or a rabbit and let them go to town, LOL! Organ meats tent to give soft poops so better to feed only a little at a time, a few meals per week. the more you feed raw and see your dog getting better and better, the more confidence you'll gain and things will get sooo easy. i promise
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"Let Thy Food Be Thy Medicine" Take nothing but pictures, leave nothing but footprints. :love: ~Akitas Are Love~ :love: |
#16
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#17
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Naturally occuring. Chicken feet for example are high in glucosamine.
__________________
Please please please give Maggie the steak! Its not too big for her little mouth! Their impression of power is remarkable. They give one the feeling of immense reserves of energy, of great reservoirs of knowledge, of tolerance of disposition, obstinacy of purpose, and tenacity of principle. They are responsive, and they have a lot of quiet, good sense. -J. Wentworth Day, from The Dog in Sport, 1938 |
#18
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Really?I thought it was only in the exoskeleton of shellfish.Are you feeding a lot of chicken feet erykah? |
#19
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Glucosamine is a structural component of connective tissue, so any raw whole meats on bone contain a good amount of naturally occuring glucosamine
__________________
"Let Thy Food Be Thy Medicine" Take nothing but pictures, leave nothing but footprints. :love: ~Akitas Are Love~ :love: |
#20
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Do you have a source for that?That is not my understanding.Perhaps you mean chondroitin?
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#21
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here are some:
http://www.ultrunr.com/glcosam.html http://www.umm.edu/altmed/ConsSupple...osaminecs.html please note that while the commercial production of glucosamine for human consumption is derived from the exoskeleton of shellfish, it is still naturally occuring in bovine cartilage and THAT source is excellent for dogs, if fed raw
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"Let Thy Food Be Thy Medicine" Take nothing but pictures, leave nothing but footprints. :love: ~Akitas Are Love~ :love: |
#22
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#23
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And from your link the precautions and possible interactions are important imo,and generally not discussed ime
"Precautions Because of the potential for side effects and interactions with medications, dietary supplements should be taken only under the supervision of a knowledgeable healthcare provider. The majority of studies indicate that glucosamine is safe, nontoxic, and causes only minor side effects such as stomach upset, heartburn, indigestion, gas, bloating, and diarrhea. If these symptoms occur, glucosamine should be taken with food. People with peptic ulcers should take glucosamine sulfate with food. Glucosamine sulfate may contain high amounts of sodium or potassium, so individuals on a restricted diet or taking potassium-sparing diuretics should carefully check the label before taking glucosamine supplements. People with diabetes should have their blood sugar checked regularly as glucosamine may cause insulin to work less effectively. Some glucosamine supplements are derived from shellfish, so individuals with shellfish allergies should check with a health care professional before taking these supplements. People who are allergic to sulfur are usually allergic to sulfa drugs or sulfite-containing food additives. Sulfur is an essential nutrient that is naturally present in the body of all individuals. "Sulfur-sensitive" people can safely use glucosamine sulfate. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Possible Interactions If you are currently being treated with any of the following medications, you should not use glucosamine or make any adjustments to your medications without first talking to your healthcare provider. Nonsteroidal Anti-inflammatory Drugs (NSAIDs) Glucosamine may increase the anti-inflammatory activity of NSAIDs such as ibuprofen. This interaction may result in the need for lower doses of these medications" |
#24
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Marie-Eve and Buster (5 year old-ish rescued Boxer) Deep thought, by Jack Handey : "I think my new thing will be to try to be a real happy guy. I'll just walk around being real happy until some jerk says something stupid to me." |
#25
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then again...what the heck do I know i'm only a kibble feeder
__________________
Marie-Eve and Buster (5 year old-ish rescued Boxer) Deep thought, by Jack Handey : "I think my new thing will be to try to be a real happy guy. I'll just walk around being real happy until some jerk says something stupid to me." |
#26
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I believe some people eat cartilage.What sources were you referring to?
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#27
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LL1, i don't have much time right now but feel free to do your own research... because you are looking for more information, and not trying to argue something just for the sake of arguing, right?
http://www.alternativehealth.com.au/Articles/bovine.htm Quote:
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"Let Thy Food Be Thy Medicine" Take nothing but pictures, leave nothing but footprints. :love: ~Akitas Are Love~ :love: |
#28
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My aunt does.. When she's done with a turkey leg all that is left is the bone. It's pretty gross.
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#29
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heyyyy... my bf does that too when i'm done eating my chicken leg, i'll hand it over to him to crunch the ends off... ugh ugh ugh
__________________
"Let Thy Food Be Thy Medicine" Take nothing but pictures, leave nothing but footprints. :love: ~Akitas Are Love~ :love: |
#30
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Actually,that is not what I have been asking you for,I think I clarified that.
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