Ava and Penny

[luckypenny]

I received Ava's test results Thursday evening, everything falls perfectly within the normal range. She's doing well at the center (the place is absolutely beautiful with acres of walking trails among a Pine forest ). The trainer who takes her for her walks and plays with her says she's a gentle love bug, pays no mind to the other dogs, and never barks . We'll be going to spend the afternoon with her on Tuesday.

Originally Posted by ScottieDog

I hope the physical wounds heal quickly and the mental demons brought under control.

They're healing very well, no signs of infection, and Penny had her staples removed this morning. I don't think mental demons have anything to do with this though, everything about the incident points to instinctual behavior so far. There was nothing 'normal' about this fight .

Penny's now separated from Nukka and Lucky with only a few minutes of contact at a time with Lucky in the yard. She's still very stressed and reactive at this point. Her test results should be in by Tuesday/Wednesday. we'll know more then.

Thank you once again for the support and good wishes everyone .

[14+kitties]

I feel so for you LP. You must be missing Ava like crazy. At least you can still go visit. You have done and continue to do so much for dogs. Please don't let this one make you doubt yourself and your abilities. You have more in your little finger than most do in their whole body.

[Winston]

Thanks for the update LP! Please give Ava another smooch and hug for me when you see her on Tuesday!

I hope Penny continues to improve and build back up her confidence. It must be hard for you to keep her away from her Lucky Boy! So do you suspect an illness with Penny or something off? that perhaps would have had something to do with the disagreement? Interesting how animals can sense so much more than we ever could?

the perfect home will come along MF! I am positive..

Cindy

[catlover2]

LP, I'm so very sorry to hear what you've had to go through with Ava & Penny. I know it would be driving me crazy to know WHY this happened the way it did. Just wondering if you have considered consulting an animal psychic or communicator? There are some gifted people who are able to tune in to an animal's thoughts. I took a recent animal communication course, and if you're interested I could send you a PM of the instructor of the course who lives in ON but can "read" an animal from photos, or she may be able to recommend someone in QC.

[chico2]

LP,I too am very sorry,I am sure letting go of Ava was not an easy decision,but I am glad she has no healthproblems.
As for Penny,do you suspect something is not right??
If so I hope sweet Penny will be ok and reunited with Lucky
I am sure you will love seeing Ava again,but you will probably be leaving in tears,as she will more than likely want to go home with you
I know you know dogs and have helped several towards a good life and I don't doubt that you are doing the right thing

[Dee-O-Gee]

LP this must be so hard and can only give you my 110% support and best wishes for all.

Be strong and keep a positive frame of mind. All will work out in the end.

[luckypenny]

Originally Posted by catlover2

I know it would be driving me crazy to know WHY this happened the way it did. Just wondering if you have considered consulting an animal psychic or communicator?

No, we haven't thought of that. First we want to make sure everything is alright health wise.

Originally Posted by Winston

So do you suspect an illness with Penny or something off? that perhaps would have had something to do with the disagreement? Interesting how animals can sense so much more than we ever could?

Originally Posted by chico2

As for Penny,do you suspect something is not right??

At this point, it's a suspicion but anything is possible. Test results still aren't in but I'll post here as soon as I get them.

We went to see Ava this afternoon. We were so happy to see each other . She was quite pleased to give us an extensive tour of the walking trails.

[Tundra_Queen]

lp, the walking trails are beautiful!

[Dee-O-Gee]

Passing along for Penny's results and happy to hear your visit with Ava included happy trails.

[growler~GateKeeper]

How is Penny doing these last couple of days?

Sounds like Ava is enjoying her time at the centre w/lots of long walks

for good results or at least workable definitive answers in Pennys' tests

[Goldfields]

This all sounds so much like my two cattle dogs, Susie and Cuddles. Susie would bully Cuddles when they were young, Cuddles is the biggest wimp or softie you'd ever meet but unfortunately also a very good fighter, and one day the worm turned. Same thing LP, for the rest of their time together they looked to continue the fight and it's just so stressful to live with, having to keep them apart. The other bad aggression I have seen here is from a thyroid deficient sheltie. Boy, was he hard to stop if another dog got in his face. He is fine now he's on med's though. Good luck in sorting your problem out.

[14+kitties]

I am so glad Ava is in such a gorgeous place! It must do a lot for your peace of mind LP.
for good test results for Penny. I hope they are both healing well.

[Frenchy]

That's a nice trail LP

[ancientgirl]

LP, I just read through this. What a nightmare for you all. I'm glad to see Ava is in such a wonderful place.

[ScottieDog]

Such a beautiful, serene place. I know it has to hurt you not to have her at your side. You, Ava and Penny have been and will be in my thoughts. Thank you for the update and photos.

[Magicwildwolf69]

glad things are working out a bit for you lp. i think of you even though i haven't been around to keep up. just want to send and to you and hope penny gets better soon and can join her friends again.

[Dog Dancer]

LP, it must have been such a thrill for both of you to see each other. Ava certainly looks happy enough though. Hoping the test results you are waiting for tell you what you want to know and that you are able to work with it. Glad to hear Penny is recovering well enough.

[luckypenny]

Penny's test results came back today. All falls within the normal range. As crazy as this may sound, we were almost hoping for something, anything, to show up . It may have offered us some easier answers, some simple solutions.

We had to make the most difficult decisions...we are now actively looking for new homes for Ava and Nukka. And back a million steps with Penny .

Thank you to every one who have offered so much support.

[diandpat]

OH LP this is just so heartbreaking I can't even imagine your anguish right now. has there been an incident with Nukka as well or is this simply precautionary? Poor Penny and poor you...

[luckypenny]

Precautionary. Penny is extremely reactive, is too quickly aroused, and we're not going to take any chances. We've tried the crate and rotate for the past week and a half and it's too stressful on us all and in no terms a fair life for Nukka.

There is not one dog to blame in all of this. Lucky was also involved in the fight but I was able to call him off. Perhaps he and Ava were protecting the pack from a perceived threat? We'll never know. We are certain though that the issues lie with Penny. We just didn't realize how serious they are, and how they were escalating until everything fell apart.

[TeriM]

Originally Posted by luckypenny

We went to see Ava this afternoon. We were so happy to see each other . She was quite pleased to give us an extensive tour of the walking trails.

Ava looks wonderful in those pics, I am glad she is doing well .

Originally Posted by luckypenny

Precautionary. Penny is extremely reactive, is too quickly aroused, and we're not going to take any chances. We've tried the crate and rotate for the past week and a half and it's too stressful on us all and in no terms a fair life for Nukka.

I'm so sorry LP . Have you considered trying some meds for Penny to help settle her? It really hasn't been very long since the incident so perhaps a wee bit more time before deciding about Nukka is possible?

[growler~GateKeeper]

I'm so sorry LP

I can't remember if you've used Rescue Remedy with Penny before or not, perhaps that might be an option?

[Tundra_Queen]

Lp, I'm so very sorry you have to rehome Nukka too.

[Love4himies]

This just breaks my heart, LP . I just can't imagine the pain you and your family must be feeling right now.

It looks like Ava has a wonderful place to stay for the moment . I wish you luck in finding very special homes for your two babies.

[luckypenny]

Originally Posted by TeriM

Have you considered trying some meds for Penny to help settle her?

We have but, from past experience with Lucky, we know the behavior can get worse before it gets better until the body has adjusted to the intro, and subsequent increases in dosage. We can't chance Penny getting worse at this point .

Originally Posted by growler

I can't remember if you've used Rescue Remedy with Penny before or not, perhaps that might be an option?

We're giving her Bach's Aspen for now. Today was a good day but she did choose to sleep on the hard floor in the darkest corner of the basement last night .

Thank you TQ & L4H, my heart does hurt...I keep thinking of ways to bring Ava back home but I know that would never work .

[TeriM]

You know LP the more I think about things I am starting to wonder if Penny is experiencing some vaccinosis? The symptoms you are describing are quite common of a reaction to a rabies vaccine. There are some homeopathic treatments that could help her a lot and would definately not harm her so perhaps worth looking at? When was she last vaccinated?

[TeriM]

Some more information:

In sum, symptoms of rabies vaccinosis include the following:


Obsession with water, especially running water
Fear of water (including fear of going out in the rain)
Reactivity to light or reflective surfaces
Light and shadow obsessions and chasing
Noise sensitivity
Seeing imaginary objects
Irrational fear of objects that are harmless, as if seeing a ghost or monster
Interpreting approaching people or animals – especially dogs – as an assault
Thunderphobia and other noise sensitivities
Reactivity to movement
Alarm barking seemingly at nothing, especially in the dark
Fear aggression towards approaching people and especially towards other dogs
Separation anxiety
Panic at being contained (i.e. excessive desire to escape their crate, house etc.)
Seizure activity
Hind end weakness or paralysis
A dislike of being touched (feet, ears, and especially hind end)
Trouble eating or drinking, as if tongue is partially paralyzed

Of note, the above symptoms are all neurological, not surprising as the central nervous system is the site of attack of the rabies virus. There can, of course, be other causes, including exposure to other toxins (pesticides, herbicides, food preservatives, flea, tick and heartworm chemicals, household cleaners and so on), other vaccines (distemper, for example), trauma and so on. If your dog is experiencing any of the above symptoms it is important to look at its complete history to determine any and all potential triggers and do your best to eliminate them. Neurological and – in particular – mental symptoms are an indication of chronic disease at its deepest and most dangerous, and should not be overlooked or ignored

[TeriM]

and some more ...

Now let’s consider how this acute disease has, through vaccination, become a variety of “new” ailments:

Restless nature; suspicious of others, unfriendly to other dogs, vicious to other animals, desire to kill.

Aggression and mistrust of strangers, esp. people in uniforms.

Dogs normally affectionate may hide away and shun company.
Change of behavior to aloofness; from affectionate to unaffectionate.

Dogs normally independent may become unusually attentive and affectionate.
Clingy behavior, fear to be left alone.

Follows owner from room to room.
Wants physical contact.

Attempt at restraint results in hysterical, violent behavior. Resistance can be so extreme as to cause self-injury.

The dog may inflict severe bite wounds on itself.
Self-mutilation; tail-chewing, chewing off toes or a foot (seen in severe allergic or nervous diseases).

Strange cries and hoarse howls (partial paralysis of the vocal cords).
Changed voice; hoarseness.

Excessive tendency to bark or be vocal.

No interest in food.
Chronic poor appetite; very particular about food; finicky.

Unable to swallow because of paralysis of muscles of deglutition. Hanging down of the lower jaw.
Paralysis (or partial paralysis) of mouth, tongue or throat; sloppy eaters or drinkers; tendency to drool or lose saliva.

Eyes staring with dilation of the pupils.
Loss of sight, cataract formation, visual defects.

Unable to close the eyes; cornea becomes dry and dull.
Keratitis sicca, “dry eye”.

Swallows pieces of wood, stones, its own fecal material and other foreign bodies.
Habit of eating wood, stones, sticks, earth.

Excessive desire to eat stool (their own or other animals).

Destruction of blankets, towels, clothing.
Destructive behavior and shredding of blankets or bedding.

Convulsive seizures.

Muscular incoordination.
Seizures, epilepsy, chorea, twitches, etc.

Agonizing pain and constriction in the throat; spasms of the throat.
Psychomotor seizure syndrome.

Increased sexual desire, even in neutered males; humping; sexual aggression.

Inflammation of the heart muscle; disturbed heart function, irregular rhythm, heart rate too slow or too fast; heart failure.
Irregular pulse; heart failure.

Periods of excitement and jerky breathing; cluster breathing.
“Reverse” sneezing attacks.


These symptoms of rabies vaccinosis are not familiar to us because, until vaccines were widely employed, we never saw rabies in a chronic form in our patients. Even now, these effects of rabies’ vaccination are generally unrecognized even though follow-up of changes in dog temperaments and physical condition after rabies’ vaccination will readily confirm this.

[luckypenny]

Thank you for all that information Teri. Although I knew there could be reactions from vaccines, I didn't know how many serious ones there could be. Penny hasn't been vaccinated against rabies, nor DHPPV, in over three years though, and almost two years for Lepto. I know it's likely going to take some time to get over this for her. But even the behaviorist thought that Penny's behavior was a bit extreme, even now three weeks after the incident. I'll be calling her tomorrow to discuss Penny sleeping/hiding downstairs and her hyperactivity when she finally does come up and/or outside.

Some positive news though...usually when there's something beyond the fence in the woods, both she and Lucky race towards the same spot. Last week, Penny went after/redirected to Lucky and another fight nearly broke out. Thankfully dh was there and able to hold on to her while I called Lucky to me. Tonight though, Lucky ran to the fence barking and Penny ran right to the same area with her hackles raised sounding off like Kujo. I calmly said (I have no idea how I was able to remain so calm ), "Lucky, Penny, come" and they both flipped around and came charging across the yard and up the stairs on to the deck where I was. That sort of positive reaction from the both of them at the same time hasn't happened in a long time. Normally I can get Lucky to respond immediately but I have to go back for Penny, once Lucky is inside, to get her attention. So tonight's experience gives me something positive to hang on to for a little while .

[Chaser]

I'm so sorry you're having such a hard time LP. I think it's awesome youve gone to visit Ava and I bet she is beyond thrilled to see you. I hope you'll be able to find a home where you can still visit - you clearly care for her a lot. Best of luck with Penny