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  #31  
Old September 15th, 2006, 01:21 PM
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wow...three posts in a row.....I'm really brain dead today!!

Have you thought of Merricks Wilderness Blend (I think it's available here....)

Ingredients:
Buffalo, Oatmeal, Barley, Salmon Meal, Venison,Whole Brown Rice, Canola Oil (preserved with mixed tocopherols – a source of Natural Vitamin E and Ascorbic Acid, a source of Vitamin C), Flaxseed, Potatoes, Carrots, Peas, Dried Chicken Liver, Whole Apples, Dicalcium Phosphate, Calcium Carbonate, Potassium Chloride, Lysine, Guar Gum, Salt, Choline Chloride, Zinc Amino Acid Complex, Whole Blueberries, Yucca Schidigera Extract, Whole Clove Garlic, Chondroitin Sulfate, Glucosamine Hydrochloride, Natural Venison Flavor, Chicory Root, Marigold Extract, Lactobacillus Plantarum, Enterocococcus Faecium, Lactobacillus Casei, Lactobacillus Acidophilus, Natural Celery Flavor, Iron Amino Acid Complex, Vitamin E Supplement, Manganese Amino Acid Complex, Natural Caramel Color, Vitamin A Supplement, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Copper Amino Acid Complex, d-Calcium Pantothenate, Vitamin D3, Niacin, Lecithin, Ribofl avin Supplement, Biotin, Ethylenediamine Dihydriodide, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Cobalt Amino Acid Complex, Folic Acid, Thiamine Mononitrate, Sodium Selenite.


Guaranteed Analysis:
Crude Protein (Not Less Than) 24.0%
Crude Fat (Not Less Than) 14.0%
Crude Fiber (Not More Than) 3.5%
Moisture (Not More Than) 10.0%
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  #32  
Old September 15th, 2006, 01:48 PM
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Quote:
Have you thought of Merricks Wilderness Blend
it has dried chicken liver... and boo can't do anything chicken, right? i'm gonna try a bag of Merrick's for the beanies next time i need some dry food for their snacks, it sounds really good! i saw some at a shop last month, first time ever. good marketing, it's a funky product line that catches the eye!
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  #33  
Old September 15th, 2006, 02:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperWanda

Also wondering what fake bacteria is??? Is that bacteria trying to be something it's not??? Must be bad bacteria doing that, not the good kind!
She means that the company puts it in the food as a gimmick, since it isn't live/active bacteria. it's in there and it is the good kind, but it isn't doing any good. (not really 'fake' but more, inactive). It's a marketing technique.
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  #34  
Old September 15th, 2006, 02:21 PM
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Yes - Just a Wee Bit has also changed:

Bison, Salmon Meal, Brown Rice, Millet, Cracked Pearled Barley, Rice Bran, Canola Oil, Tomato Pomace, Flaxseed, Natural Flavor, Salmon Oil, Choline Chloride, Taurine, Dried Chicory Root, Parsley Flakes, Pumpkin Meal, Almond Oil, Sesame Oil, Yucca Schidigera Extract, Thyme, Blueberries, Cranberries, Carrots, Broccoli, Vitamins and Minerals.

So, yes - identical as the Wolf King but more %protein and %fat.
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  #35  
Old September 15th, 2006, 02:27 PM
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Quote:
So, yes - identical as the Wolf King but more %protein and %fat.
that is a strange concept to me... if the ingredients are exactly the same, how can the protein & fat levels be different? unless they are adding more meat, so the order of ingredients stay the same? would the caloric content per cup also then increase? ...
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  #36  
Old September 15th, 2006, 03:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by technodoll
that is a strange concept to me... if the ingredients are exactly the same, how can the protein & fat levels be different? unless they are adding more meat, so the order of ingredients stay the same? would the caloric content per cup also then increase? ...
Yeah...there's a little more meat in it (I think they add alittle more salmon meal, so the ingredient order stays the same. Plus, there's more millet in the Wee Bit, and more calories....

Just a Wee Bit Adult (bison)
Bison | Salmon Meal | Millet | Brown Rice | Cracked Pearled Barley | Rice Bran | Canola Oil | Flaxseed Oil | Garlic | Amaranth | Blueberries | Yucca Schidigera Extract | Dried Chicory Root | Taurine | Carotene | Choline Chloride | Vitamin E Supplement | Iron Proteinate | Zinc Proteinate | Copper Proteinate | Manganese Proteinate | Potassium Iodide | Thiamine Mononitrate | Ascorbic Acid | Vitamin A Supplement | Biotin | Calcium Panthothenate | Selenomethionine | Pyridoxine Hydrochloride | Vitamin B12 Supplement | Riboflavin | Vitamin D Supplement | Folic Acid |

Crude Protein, Min 28%
Crude Fat, Min 18%
Crude Fiber, Max 4%
Moisture, Max 10%
380 kcal/cup

WolfKing Adult Dog (bison)
Bison | Salmon Meal | Brown Rice | Millet | Cracked Pearled Barley | Oatmeal | Rice Bran | Canola Oil | Flaxseed Oil | Garlic | Amaranth | Blueberries | Yucca Schidigera Extract | Carotene | Choline Chloride | Vitamin E Supplement | Iron Proteinate | Zinc Proteinate | Copper Proteinate | Manganese Proteinate | Potassium Iodide | Thiamine Mononitrate | Ascorbic Acid | Vitamin A Supplement | Biotin | Calcium Panthothenate | Selenomethionine | Pyridoxine Hydrochloride | Vitamin B12 Supplement | Riboflavin | Vitamin D Supplement | Folic Acid |

Protein, Min 22%
Fat, Min 9%
Fiber, Max 4%
Moisture, Max 10%
Calories per cup, 364
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  #37  
Old September 15th, 2006, 03:54 PM
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Oh, this so sucks that SG would do this...I really wonder why?

Prin, I'm still new to the food thing-I know the issues with brewer's yeast and menadione, but why no eggs? Is it an allergy thing, or worrying that the dried egg product is just egg and not shell?
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  #38  
Old September 15th, 2006, 03:57 PM
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It's a stool hardener. It's just the fact that without the added grains it shouldn't *need* to be in there. And now there will be two to balance the new formula out..
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  #39  
Old September 15th, 2006, 04:05 PM
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Huh-I didn't realize that egg was a stool hardener. Thought it was just a protein source. That's why I love this site-ya learn something new every day!
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  #40  
Old September 15th, 2006, 04:24 PM
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If you are just looking for poultry free good stuff, TO dakota bison could be on that list of more impossible to get but you know you wanna try foods.
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  #41  
Old September 15th, 2006, 05:29 PM
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No, I just don't want the egg in there in case Boo is allergic. Most of these foods I would have to special order at the very least, and I just can't take the chance that he might be intolerant to one ingredient from the start. It's very hard to switch Boo. It took me 4 months to get his stools solid after switching to WK and I must have taken 2-3 weeks at least to do the switch. He's a very sensitive guy.

There's nothing really wrong with egg, but "egg product" is nasty. It's cracked eggs, rotten eggs, etc not for human consumption.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperWanda
Does anyone know if decreasing grain based fiber has a bad effect on the emptying of the anal glands
Fast grains, like oats or corn speed things up and can cause loose stool. Beet pulp and tomato pomace slow things down (stool hardeners). The harder the stool, the better for the anal glands, but that can be accomplished by reducing the fast grains and not necessarily by adding stool hardeners.

Hard stool= empty anal glands (usually- some dogs' fill up either way).

In this case, SG upped the oat content (fast) so they compensated with tomato pomace to slow it down. Both are unnecessary and a cheap way to fill the food bag.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperWanda
Also wondering what fake bacteria is??? Is that bacteria trying to be something it's not??? Must be bad bacteria doing that, not the good kind!
I call it fake, because as phoenix explained, the bacteria isn't alive, and when they use "fermentation" product, that is not what is helping the dog (not the point of probiotics). Probiotics are supposed to come in and outcompete the bad bacteria for nutrients while helping the body perform certain functions. Neither fermentation products nor dead bacteria accomplish that. The names of the bacteria they use are great, but studies show their numbers aren't significant enough to be worth anything. Better to buy the probiotics in capsules that you keep in the fridge.

Too bad they're changing the wee bit too. Really kills the mojo about SG. I have a feeling they're going to lose a lot of customers. This isn't like Iams switching formulas. Most people who know about SG have done at least a little research. You rarely would just stumble on it without any idea of what it's about.

WK was really on the border of being too grainy and this just does it in for me. I didn't get a response from either SG or TO today... Fridays, eh?
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  #42  
Old September 15th, 2006, 05:30 PM
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Oh, and yeah, Manitoba is on the west side- here's a map:
http://www.optimaldog.com/retailers/index.html
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  #43  
Old September 15th, 2006, 05:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by technodoll
it has dried chicken liver... and boo can't do anything chicken, right?
Nope, no chicken at all.

Merrick was the next one I was going to look at because my store has the cans so I figured they could get the bags in too.
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  #44  
Old September 15th, 2006, 05:38 PM
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Eggs tend to be very low allergy and a very highly disgestible protein source, one of the best complete proteins available and the amount in dog tends to be very little as it is usually very low down the list and is used mostly to help bind the ingredients, do you ever give the dogs a piece of bread or bun, breads contains eggs as well.


Fish diets may be great if they contain only deep water ocean fish like menhanden, herring but salmon is an big no-no to me especially for daily feeding, their fatty cells absorb a lot of carcingenic pollutants like PCB's and Mercury which is the reason humans are told not to eat more than 2 meals of a month. Most salmon that is used will be farmed salmon as wild salmon has stiff regulations as to when it can be caught, so not always available, and farmed salmon has much more toxins than wild , plus wild is much more expensive than farmed salmon which would likely more than double the cost if only wild pacific salmon was used. but even pacific salmon contain PCB's, after hatching they spend the first part of their life in inland rivers and that along the ocean shore until they are larger and they come back to the rivers to spawn and die, they never pass the toxins they simply are stored in their fatty cells so the bigger they are the more toxins they contain, the smaller salmon gets sold for human consumption the larger salmon goes to animal feed and processed as fertilizer, so if you feed a kibble with salmon it will have a higher PCB count than the salmon you buy for yourself

and this is the advice for farmed salmon for human consumption

Quote:
"The combined concentrations of PCBs, toxaphene and deldrin trigger stringent consumption advice for farmed salmon purchased from wholesalers and for store-bought farmed fillets."

"The most restrictive advice (less than one-half meal of salmon per month), which reflects the highest health risks,....

"this study suggests that consumption of farmed salmon may result in exposure to a variety of persistent bioaccumulative contaminants with the potential for an elevation in attendant health risks."

[3] Dioxins and PCBs are implicated in causing cancers, hormone disruption, developmental and neurological problems. They accumulate in the fatty tissues of animals and humans.
For dogs that eat the same food day after day, salmon is one of the last things I want to see in the ingredient list in a kibble, other wise I may as well be feeding a a food with BHA/BHT

More info on salmon
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...NG6C46KRV1.DTL



Timberwolf Organics is meant as a raw mixer or for those needing lower meat proteins, the amount of meat protien is low, it is not meant as a complete diet for active healthy dogs by itself, so unless you want to add raw meat to their diet it may not be the food choice you are looking for.

Ocean Blue
Quote:
This formula may also be used for the feeding of animals that require a moderate protein diet because of disease and may be used in the management of canine obesity. Ocean Blue Canid Formula™ is fully balanced and meets the requirements of all life stages, but we do encourage the adding of meats such as muscle meats, organ meats, sweetbreads (thymus, pancreas), eggs etc.
Black Forest™ Canid Formula
Quote:
This formula may also be used for the feeding of animals that require a low protein or low fat diet because of disease and may be used in the management of canine obesity. Black Forest Canid Formula™ is fully balanced and meets the requirements of all life stages, but we do encourage the adding of meats such as muscle meats, organ meats, sweetbreads (thymus, pancreas), eggs etc.
Dakota™ Bison Canid Formula

Quote:
This formula may also be used for the feeding of animals that require a moderate protein diet because of disease and may be used in the management of canine obesity. Dakota Bison Canid Formula™ is fully balanced and meets the requirements of all life stages, but we do encourage the adding of meats such as muscle meats, organ meats, sweetbreads (thymus, pancreas), eggs etc.
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  #45  
Old September 15th, 2006, 05:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prin
Nope, no chicken at all.

Merrick was the next one I was going to look at because my store has the cans so I figured they could get the bags in too.
All the dry merricks have chicken liver.....
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  #46  
Old September 15th, 2006, 05:41 PM
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I had Harley on the Merrick's for a short while between the Solid Gold and the Timberwolf. There's a post somewhere on here I started asking about which one to go with.

TO came out on top, because it was less grainy, I think but I'll have to look for it.

Harley loved the Merrick's too....I had her on the Wilderness Blend. The dried veggies they have in there are a hoot too....peas, carrots, and potato I think.
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  #47  
Old September 15th, 2006, 05:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OntarioGreys
Timberwolf Organics is meant as a raw mixer or for those needing lower meat proteins, the amount of meat protien is low, it is not meant as a complete diet for active healthy dogs by itself, so unless you want to add raw meat to their diet it may not be the food choice you are looking for.

Ocean Blue


Black Forest™ Canid Formula


Dakota™ Bison Canid Formula
All of those have a higher protein content than WK... (except the black forest, which is the same...) Why would you have to mix it with raw???
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  #48  
Old September 15th, 2006, 05:46 PM
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OG, TO foods aren't too low - most are at 26% protein, which is still higher than most foods out there. They also say they use wild salmon.
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  #49  
Old September 15th, 2006, 07:08 PM
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I have searched the site " nowhere that I can find' does it state wild salmon used in the food though they do sell wild salmon oil as a supplement


as for human feeding of wild pacific salmon

Quote:
Only wild Pacific salmon can be consumed at rates of ≥ 4 meals/month (1 meal/week)

Maybe timber wolf is agreeing with current research that says healthy dogs need a "minimum" of 30% protein and that may be the reason they suggest adding raw meat to the kibble, and why they consider 22 to 26% as low to moderate protein


I know you are still wary of high protien but the way I look at it as I would not buy a custom made sportcar from someone who specialized and did all their research strictly on mopeds, so why buy a dogfood thats protein research is based on the health effects on rats(non carnivores)




I was looking for something else but came across this on labbies.com/nutrition_letters.htm that may be of interest to you Prin, it is not something I had heard of before but quite interesting, that feeding fish or fish supplements may actually increase the symptoms of food allergies

Quote:
Additionally, a word of caution regarding diets containing fish products. Some dogs are predisposed to developing "non-allergic food reactions" to fish products. Many types of fish contain high levels of vaso-active chemicals that can cause spontaneous histamine release (immune reaction) or can lower the threshold for immune response and thus actually exacerbate symptoms associated with atopy or food allergies. In fact, I've had several Lab owners contact me with reports of their dogs exhibiting facial swelling following feeding their dogs fish-containing dietary supplements for the purpose of improving coat. This does not mean that all dogs will exhibit a contraindication to fish supplements, however, if one is feeding fish supplements or decides to try to incorporate fish-containing supplements one should remain vigilant for potential adverse reactions that might suggest hypersensitivity.
more on food allergies
http://www.labbies.com/foodreactions.htm

http://www.labbies.com/nutrition_letters.htm
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  #50  
Old September 15th, 2006, 07:23 PM
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Quote:
Maybe timber wolf is agreeing with current research that says healthy dogs need a "minimum" of 30% protein and that may be the reason they suggest adding raw meat to the kibble, and why they consider 22 to 26% as low to moderate protein
sorry to go again, but just to clarify: the protein levels we are talking about here only apply to KIBBLE food, and nothing in kibble is 100% bioavailable to the dog. In nature, raw meat contains an average of 16% protein but it has 100% bioavailability, meaning 100% digestible. cooking meats alters the chemistry of the food, hence the change in nutrient absorption. Carnivores do not ingest a 30% protein diet in the wild. It would make sense that by upping the protein % and quality in a kibble, you are closer to achieving the 16% needed by carnivores for optimal health. wow i hope i didn't confuse anyone with that, LOL!
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  #51  
Old September 15th, 2006, 07:56 PM
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Quote:
raw meat contains an average of 16% protein but it has 100% bioavailability
Raw meat depending on the type(example heart will have a slight lower water content and therefore have more protein) is 16% protein and 84% water that is the meats make up

not the same as the percentage of protein in the total diet, example you feed one pound of meat and 8 ounces of vegatable a day that is a total of 24 ounces, both have similiar water content in raw form, which will be absorbed in the digestive tract so the meat protein is then 60 % of the total raw diet.

this is the percent we are talking about, but many grains also contain protein which is why some foods may have higher protein and less real meat

Last edited by OntarioGreys; September 15th, 2006 at 07:59 PM.
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  #52  
Old September 15th, 2006, 08:13 PM
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OG, you have me completely confused... sorry

say you are feeding your dog an exclusive prey model diet (no grains, no veggies). only meat, bones, organ meats. what would the average protein % be? as absorbed by the body?
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Old September 15th, 2006, 08:35 PM
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Quote:
only meat, bones, organ meats. what would the average protein % be? as absorbed by the body?
The protein amount would be extremely high but you will also have fat, calcium and fiber from the bone as other percentages of the diet, the protein the body cannot use is excreted thru the urine, that is why scientists are now saying it is impossible to feed a dog too much protein, extra meat protein actually helps improve kidney filtration function and helps break down toxins. low protein diets do the exact opposite and can cause dogs with moderate kidney problems to actually go into full renal failure. only dogs in the later stages of renal failure have problems with protein due to phosphurous but nowadays phosphurous binders are available to allow the dog to still eat sufficient protein to prevent malnutrition

But too much bones in a diet can be an issue as it can raise calcium levels too high
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Old September 15th, 2006, 08:45 PM
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OG, thank you for the explanation! it makes sense. and by following a prey-model diet, the bone-to-meat ratio is perfectly balanced, what a beaut!

sorry for the threadjack folks. sometimes it just happens
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Old September 16th, 2006, 02:42 PM
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I did a quick check at my store while purchasing food today and found this one,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Go! Natural Salmon & Oatmeal Formula

Ingredients:

Salmon Meal, Salmon, Oatmeal, Whole Oats, Canola Oil (preserved with mixed Tocopherols [Vitamin E], Citric Acid [Vitamin C] and Rosemary extract), Oat Fiber, Inulin (FOS), Mannanoligosaccharides (MOS), Yucca Schidigera Extract, Yeast Culture, Vitamin A Acetate, Cholecalciferol (Vitamin D3), dl Alpha Tocopherol Acetate (Vitamin E), Ferrous Sulfate, **Zinc Proteinate, Zinc Oxide, Ascorbic Acid (Vitamin C), Niacin, Calcium Pantothenate, Copper Sulfate, **Copper Proteinate, Manganous Oxide, **Manganese Proteinate, Riboflavin, Calcium Iodate, Thiamine Mononitrate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (Vitamin B6), Folic Acid, Biotin, Sodium Selenite, Cobalt Carbonate, Menadione Sodium Bisulphate Complex (source of Vitamin K activity), Vitamin B12.
** These items are chelated minerals.
Guaranteed Analysis:
Crude Protein - (min) - 22.00%
Crude Fat - (min) - 12.00%
Crude Fiber - (max) - 3.80%
Moisture - (min) - 10.00%
Omega 6 Fatty Acids - 2.75%
Omega 3 Fatty Acids - 0.30%
Vitamin E - (min) - 200 IU/kg
Unfortunately it has the menadione sodium bisulphate. That's the only one I found that hasn't been mentioned already
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  #56  
Old September 16th, 2006, 05:24 PM
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It doesn't have menadione in it anymore. They are just using up their supply of empty bags. Once the supply is used up the new bags will not list it as an ingredient.
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  #57  
Old September 16th, 2006, 09:20 PM
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Yeah, I always forget about that one because it's not on the petcurean website yet (still). I might be able to get that one somewhere... maybe...

OG, if I can't feed chicken or salmon, what's left? Just lamb, beef or "wild" meats? hmm.... I'd rather the salmon... I don't think dogs live long enough to have the carcinogenic effects of the salmon...
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  #58  
Old September 16th, 2006, 11:40 PM
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hey prin, silly question... why do jemma & boo have to eat the same food? are they free-fed?... just curious, cuz their allergies are not the same, if i remember?...
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  #59  
Old September 16th, 2006, 11:45 PM
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No, they're not the same allergies and technically they don't have to eat the same food, but if I find a food for Boo, it works for Jemma too. Jemma's easy.
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Old September 16th, 2006, 11:51 PM
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technodoll technodoll is offline
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Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Montreal, QC
Posts: 5,900
no, it makes sense to buy one food for both, much simpler re: buying in bulk and the food stays fresher cuz it gets eaten faster. man, i really hope you find something soon!
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