Cropped or not

[StaceyB]

That's a very nice looking dane. How old there?

[jessi76]

why would anyone want to cut those beautiful ears? Thanks for that pic Mona_b, that's a truly gorgeous dane.

Ironically at puppy school last night, a woman came up to me and said "oh look! a cropped boxer!" to my little basenji-mix pup... she looked a bit shocked when I told her his ears are natural.

[mona_b]

If I recall,she is 9 months old.

[MaryAndDobes]

Originally Posted by StaceyB

there are quite a few judges that have the same view as you and will pick a cropped over natural even if the natural eared dog was a better representation of the breed.

Now, now, don't be putting words into my mouth. Where did I say I'd choose a cropped dog over a natural one when it comes to showing? May the best dog win!

I just commented that in my breed, the uncropped ones have tended to have much bigger problems than their ears ...

The puppies I produce, the dogs that I own - they are cropped, yes. I am looking at possibly breeding to an uncropped dog in the US. I *can* see past ears, you know!

Another comment - on the whole, in general, as a rescue person I can say that we have a bit of a harder time placing the uncropped dogs. And if it has a natural tail? It's one uphill battle ... I'm not saying it's impossible. But if they are uncropped or, God forbid, undocked it will take a little longer to find them their forever home. On the whole, people recognize the Doberman as a cropped dog and it is still the bigger preference. Now, when it comes to a rescue dog, I don't personally think cropping should make a whit of difference. It's a deserving dog that needs a forever home, period.

[Beaglemom]

Originally Posted by MaryAndDobes

Another comment - on the whole, in general, as a rescue person I can say that we have a bit of a harder time placing the uncropped dogs. And if it has a natural tail? It's one uphill battle ... I'm not saying it's impossible. But if they are uncropped or, God forbid, undocked it will take a little longer to find them their forever home. On the whole, people recognize the Doberman as a cropped dog and it is still the bigger preference. Now, when it comes to a rescue dog, I don't personally think cropping should make a whit of difference. It's a deserving dog that needs a forever home, period.

If I were to adopt a Doberman, I wouldn't really care if it was uncropped or undocked. It is a shame how some people can't look past that and accept the dog natural and give it a second chance with a loving family. It is true that some people think that the ideal Doberman must be cropped and docked. A real shame when these rescues need a home!

Like I said before, I prefer the cropped ear look, but I would never pass up one because it was uncropped or undocked. If I were able to have a Dobe in my life, it wouldn't matter if it was show or pet quality, cropped or uncropped, docked or undocked. It would be a member of my family and would be loved as if it was the best in the world, he/she would be flawless in my eyes!

[mona_b]

Your very welcome jessi....

I just commented that in my breed, the uncropped ones have tended to have much bigger problems than their ears ...

Just a bit curious as to what you mean by this.

If you are refuring to health problems,I really don't think so.

An uncropped Dobe,Dane,Boxer or whatever will not have any different health or genetic issues than those which are cropped.


If this is not what you were refuring to,then I'm sorry.

[Prin]

It's really sad that you won't let a single puppy go uncropped. Why should a dog undergo such mutilation when he's going to spend his life as a pet? Traditions are one thing, but something so painful as this should be let go if the prospective owners don't want it. Traditions change all the time. The pool of knowledge changes all the time. So many old practices and traditions involving dogs are brutal and abusive. I think it's time we move on from them, into a new era of kindness and appreciation for the dogs as they are.

If I ever do get a dobie again, I will never get one that will be cropped. Good genetics or not, the cropped ears are not natural. And entirely unncessary. Do you think the dog looks in the mirror after the surgery and says, "ahh, much better!"? Even if I did like the cropped better, I couldn't fathom being responsible for such mutilation of a dog.

Oh, and Mona, there is a new dobie at our park who had the pitty crop and it was done so badly that one ear faces backward. Her ears are the reason she was abandoned. :sad:

[StaceyB]

Originally Posted by MaryAndDobes

They'll have to look elsewhere. I don't sell puppies uncropped.

I feel that my puppies represent my breeding program and my views, and one of my views is that the Doberman is a cropped breed.

You said that you prefer cropped, as you stated here. I said many judges have the same view as you.

[shannon1233A]

Originally Posted by MaryAndDobes

I am looking at possibly breeding to an uncropped dog in the US I *can* see past ears, you know

On your website your health report states out of 22 puppies, 14 are carriers, 4 affected, 1 clear, 3 untested, of vWD That's 18 possibly 21 out of 22 with the vWD Gene.

I'm sure you as a reputable breeder are aware of :

http://www.vetgen.com/vwdrpt.html

wherein it states the prescribed breeding regulations when dealing with these genes as they are/can be deadly and how breeding is discouraged by the various University's and Vets?

I've also noticed unfortunately you lost 2 dogs at around 4 years of age due to cancers. That is soooo young. I send you my condolences, it must have been difficult.

Considering all the above, and not even mentioning the thyroid problems you've encountered, and 2 c-sections why do you want to continue breeding dobes as opposed to sticking with Rescue. So many Dobes need good homes, just wondering. Please correct me if I'm wrong, as I'm just learning about the Doberman breed, but very interested, as I said before, I watch the Dob Conformation Rings at the shows.

[shannon1233A]

Originally Posted by Prin

It's really sad that you won't let a single puppy go uncropped. Why should a dog undergo such mutilation when he's going to spend his life as a pet? Traditions are one thing, but something so painful as this should be let go if the prospective owners don't want it. Traditions change all the time. The pool of knowledge changes all the time. So many old practices and traditions involving dogs are brutal and abusive. I think it's time we move on from them, into a new era of kindness and appreciation for the dogs as they are.

If I ever do get a dobie again, I will never get one that will be cropped. Good genetics or not, the cropped ears are not natural. And entirely unncessary. Do you think the dog looks in the mirror after the surgery and says, "ahh, much better!"? Even if I did like the cropped better, I couldn't fathom being responsible for such mutilation of a dog.

Oh, and Mona, there is a new dobie at our park who had the pitty crop and it was done so badly that one ear faces backward. Her ears are the reason she was abandoned. :sad:

I especially agree with the part about changing traditions, and think it's up to the reputable and respectable breeders to work with the AKC and CKC to have any cruel traditions changed and create new standards for the breed!

[MaryAndDobes]

Originally Posted by shannon1233

think it's up to the reputable and respectable breeders to work with the AKC and CKC to have any cruel traditions changed and create new standards for the breed!

The Canadian Doberman standard recognizes and describes the uncropped ear, so there is no need to change it in that regard.

[Prin]

THey might describe it, but if they made it the only norm for the breed, that would be better in our eyes.

[MaryAndDobes]

Originally Posted by mona_b

If you are refuring to health problems,I really don't think so.

An uncropped Dobe,Dane,Boxer or whatever will not have any different health or genetic issues than those which are cropped.


If this is not what you were refuring to,then I'm sorry.

We were talking about showing and conformation, not health. I'm saying that the uncropped Dobermans that we have usually seen in the ring were not competitive for reasons beyond their uncropped ears. The uncropped ears in this country don't matter in the show ring as our standard does describe an uncropped ear.

However, that said, an uncropped Doberman *might* have different health or genetic issues because often the uncropped ones are from bybs that didn't crop in order to cut expenses. Health testing for genetic issues would also cut into their profit margins and is simply not done. So, in many cases, the uncropped Dobermans which are usually coming from bybs were not from health tested parents and not from known pedigrees that were carefully and thoroughly researched for health/genetic problems.

[MaryAndDobes]

Originally Posted by shannon1233

On your website your health report states out of 22 puppies, 14 are carriers, 4 affected, 1 clear, 3 untested, of vWD That's 18 possibly 21 out of 22 with the vWD Gene.

I'm sure you as a reputable breeder are aware of :

http://www.vetgen.com/vwdrpt.html

How would I know the status of those dogs if I weren't aware of VetGen testing?

Originally Posted by shannon1233

wherein it states the prescribed breeding regulations when dealing with these genes as they are/can be deadly and how breeding is discouraged by the various University's and Vets?.

The VetGen vWD DNA test for Dobermans is about 10 years old now. When the test was first put on the market, about 85% of the Doberman gene pool were carriers and affected. Much too many to throw away without decimating the breed, especially considering that we have worse health problems than vWD (dilated cardiomyopathy is thought to affect upwards of 50% of the breed, for eg and is always fatal, unlike vWD).

VetGen has always been quite clear that affecteds and carriers should be used carefully in breeding programs, at least until such a time as the percentage of clears is greatly increased.

A carrier is at no risk of the disease at all.

"Affected" quite simply is a poor term in this case because Dobermans that are genetically affected (having 2 genes for the disease) most often have no clinical problem at all. They are *at risk* of a problem and should be dealt with accordingly, but most will never experience a bleeding problem. Again, I'm talking Dobermans. There are other breeds where "affected" means affected, and they have a problem.

Originally Posted by shannon1233

I've also noticed unfortunately you lost 2 dogs at around 4 years of age due to cancers. That is soooo young. I send you my condolences, it must have been difficult.

The one at 4 was due to a cancer, yes. The other at 4 was due to aspergillosis, a fungal infection. But yes, it was hard. It's hard at any age. In Dobermans, we are most affected by the 3 C's - cardiomyopathy, cancer and CVI.

Originally Posted by shannon1233

Considering all the above, and not even mentioning the thyroid problems you've encountered, and 2 c-sections why do you want to continue breeding dobes as opposed to sticking with Rescue. So many Dobes need good homes, just wondering.

I'm just going to point out that the c-sections were done because in each case it was a singleton puppy, and often labour won't start on its own in that scenario (not enough hormones, not enough pressure on the uterus). I could have waited to see if she went into labour on her own but why take the chance?

Yes, I've encountered problems. As you've seen, I'm very honest about what I find and then I try to deal with it. Dealing with these problems won't be done overnight - it's a journey. I don't breed all that often really so it may seem that my progress is slow.

As you know, I'm active in rescue and see no reason not to do both. It was my initial goal to help as many rescue Dobermans as puppies that I bring into the world. However, I surpassed that goal a long time ago and see no reason to stop.

I think that any concientious breeder that does as much testing and research as I do should be encouraged to continue. It's sure not going to help the breed to leave it in the hands of the bybs who we clean up after in the rescue capacity.

[StaceyB]

Couldn't it be true that many of these breeders that do not crop ears just think as many of us do, that they are better off not having it done and not actually to save money and cut corners as you say. As someone else had posted, put more effort into their lines, nice looking natural ears. Those puppies won't be living with you. Wouldn't going into a great home be more important than passing them over simply because they want a puppy w/ natural ears.

[pags]

I voted "No" in the poll simply because the question was posed as to whether or not "I" would crop a dog's ears. I don't show dogs so I personally would never find the need for cropping. That said - I think certain breeds such as the hotly discussed doberman look incredible with the cropped ears. Cosmetic or not -- if done properly by a good vet.. I hardly consider the practice cruel.

The only sticking point for me is, indeed, nature vs. alteration when it comes to standards. I also don't think women with breast enlargements, tummy tucks, nose jobs, face lifts, tattooed-on eyebrows, false teeth, and hair implants should compete in beauty contests..... But let's face it -- the standard is there.

So that's my two cents. But I really posted because I wanted to say hello to Maryanddobes. Hello. And also tell you that I enjoyed visiting your website -- your dogs are beautiful... I'd also like to shake your hand. You have handled yourself quite wonderfully here in this bulletin board thread. Nice to meet you.

[shannon1233A]

The website I refered you to is copyrighted from 1997-2004. You have said you have 20 some years of experience , then say you weren't aware of VetGen testing? The DNA test is not 10 years old. From the website:

The Doberman breeder and owner should view vWD as a significant health risk, and a fault, and strive to get rid of the mutated gene. The discovery of the mutation, and the recent development of a DNA test, now provides just that opportunity.
Funded by:
The Doberman Pinscher Foundation of America, Inc., The Orthopedic Foundation for Animals, the Morris Animal Foundation, and the American Kennel Club.

Carriers of the mutant vWD gene are at no risk of bleeding from vWD, but of course, will transmit the mutant gene to their offspring 50% of the time. Roughly, the ranges of vWf factor levels are 5 to 20% for affected, 30-100% for carriers, and 50-130% for homozygous normal. Note the major overlap between carriers and normals for vWf levels. This overlap accounts for the extreme unreliability of the vWf assay in trying to identify Doberman carriers of vWD.

The new DNA test for Doberman vWD is offered by VetGen LLC (3728 Plaza Drive, Suite 1, Ann Arbor, Michigan 48108; (734) 669-8440, (800) 4-VETGEN; Fax (734) 669-8441). It is very easy to do the test. You can order the test kit from VetGen by phone or letter.

Maybe you haven't read that website yet, it might help you decide if you should continue breeding. It's really scary.

[MaryAndDobes]

Originally Posted by StaceyB

Couldn't it be true that many of these breeders that do not crop ears just think as many of us do, that they are better off not having it done and not actually to save money and cut corners as you say.

I've mentioned several times that I'm active in Doberman rescue. I see the many uncropped Dobermans we get. I see their very poor conformation. In some cases, I do know where they came from and I *know* they are from bybs that put absolutely no thought and no money into what they are doing. If they don't care to take back the dogs they produced, if they don't care who they sold them to, if they don't care they are in rescues and shelters -- do you really think they chose not to crop ears because they cared about what the puppies go through then? They didn't! In most cases, those puppies were out the door long before they were of appropriate cropping age and long before they started costing them any additional money.

Originally Posted by StaceyB

Those puppies won't be living with you. Wouldn't going into a great home be more important than passing them over simply because they want a puppy w/ natural ears.

It doesn't matter where they are living - they are still representing me and my breeding program. As a breeder that will always take back any puppy of my breeding if necessary in the future, they may very well be living with me again someday. I don't breed so many litters that finding wonderful homes is a problem.

[MaryAndDobes]

Originally Posted by shannon1233

The website I refered you to is copyrighted from 1997-2004. You have said you have 20 some years of experience , then say you weren't aware of VetGen testing?

Shannon, please read my replies more carefully.

I said: How would I know the status of those dogs if I weren't aware of VetGen testing?

Meaning that my dogs are VetGen tested so clearly I'm aware of VetGen testing.

Originally Posted by shannon1233

The DNA test is not 10 years old. .

The first VetGen vWD DNA test that I ran on one of my dogs was in 1997, and it wasn't that long after the test was first developed and put on the market. So yes, the test has been around for nearly 10 years or "about 10 years" as I stated. Maybe it's really 8 years, what difference does it make? I've been using the test since it first came on the market. The status of my dogs is listed on my website - I wouldn't know the status of my dogs if I weren't using the test!

FWIW, several of my dogs are also part of the vWD study at the U of Guelph.

[Prin]

I noticed that a lot of your dogs had thyroid issues too. Then I found this on the internet:

To reduce the incidence of the disease in our breed, all breeding stock should be tested every couple of years and only thyroid normal dogs should be bred wherever possible. Pets don't need to be tested unless they exhibit some symptoms.

And this is what I found from a study on the increase of genetic disorder frequency in Dobermans:

The vWD gene frequency in the American Doberman population is very high: approximately 30% are homozygote affected, 50% are carriers (heterozygote vWD, leaving only 20% of dogs completely clear in phenotype and homozygote free of vWD genes in genotype (Kurz 2004).

But ideally, if you're testing them and then breeding them, you should never get an affected one. Right? Because you would never breed two carriers together, nor a carrier with an affected. Also, the affected ones only produce 5-10% of the normal protein, by accident, and that percentage can be greatly affected by factors such as hypothyroidism and stress. So the combination of hypothyroidism with vWD is condusive to the bleeding.

And this:

That is, a carrier although outwardly a healthy Doberman is not vigorous, in the sense that it does not have the same reserves as a normal dog to withstand environmental stress. If a vWD carrier becomes hypothyroid, it may be subject to bleeding episodes unless placed on thyroid supplement.

Originally Posted by MaryAndDobies

I've mentioned several times that I'm active in Doberman rescue. I see the many uncropped Dobermans we get. I see their very poor conformation. In some cases, I do know where they came from and I *know* they are from bybs that put absolutely no thought and no money into what they are doing. If they don't care to take back the dogs they produced, if they don't care who they sold them to, if they don't care they are in rescues and shelters -- do you really think they chose not to crop ears because they cared about what the puppies go through then?

The thing is, the small sample population you get in rescue might be from BYB's but there also might be breeders who don't crop, who also expect their dogs back if there is trouble, just like you would expect yours back. In those cases, rescues would never see them.

[StaceyB]

You may be getting several puppies into rescue from byb's. Maybe you only see the ones from there, it still doesn't mean that there are not rep breeders out there that are choosing not to crop. Maybe the dogs from these breeders are not winding up in rescue. When I got my dane from a Registered breeder, I had the option of whether I wanted the ears done or not. If I wanted it done then they would have been done. Just because I had that option doesn't mean he wasn't from a good breeder. I think his ears are perfect. See Great Dane thread.

[Dragonfly]

I really hate to repeat myself so I am going to lock this now, before it deteriorates any further.