Schnoodles - Help!

[Melei'sMom]

Originally Posted by Prin

But if we stop making pure doggies, we will probably see an increase in dogs at shelters because people will never be able to fully choose the breed they want and might end up getting the "wrong one". It already happens so often, but imagine if all we had were mutts?

Maybe the problem we should be combating then is peoples attitude toward dogs and their expectations of them? We don't get to pick and choose the behaviors of our children, and if a dog is to be an important part of our family, they should be given the same room to 'be themselves'. Obviously, they would still need to be well trained and cared for, but maybe we could learn to be more accepting of the personality of the dog we welcome into our home and heart. just imho.

And I think we did a thread jack here so I would like to apologize for that to glasgk.

[Prin]

Yeah, that's not likely to happen. In a world where people dump pets because their fur clashes with the furniture, and where there are probably more abused animals than not, we have to "attack" the source... People will always suck, but if we can get rid of the head sucky people, that'll be a step.

[technodoll]

only if you go back for thousands of years. purebreds have been around since the egyptians, since then the evolution of new breeds have sprung from pure sources - otherwise you would not get a consistent genotype. take the Dogo Argentino, for example - one of the "newest" breeds, developed in the 1920's - started with a now extinct mastiff-type breed called the Dog of Cordoba. was added: Great Dane, Boxer, Spanish Mastiff, Bulldog, Bull Terrier, Great Pyrenees, Pointer, Irish Wolfhound and Dogue de Bordeaux. All purebreds, to develop another purebreed dog that is consistent today in type & temperament.
so no, IMO mutts did not yeild pure dogs, it is the other way around.
and saying that the breeding of purebreds should be stopped because of the overpopulation of shelters, is just a band-aid proposition that bears no resemblance to reality and benefits who, in the end? no, the solution is really to stop the mass production of UNWANTED dogs, pure or mixed, by unscrupulous people who don't give a crap about dogs in the first place. Penalizing people who DO want a specific purebreed dog, a healthy balanced one bred by an ethical breeder, is biased and against freedom of choice in our democratic society. it's easy to point the finger of blame at anybody breeding dogs, but that is NOT where the problem lays.

[Lissa]

If we had no pure doggies there wouldn't be an excuse to need/want/"have to have" certain characteristics. Perhaps if it wasn't so easy to match a breed's characteristics to a person's personality/desire, people would realize that owning a dog is not a light commitment. Even when you choose a breed to match your lifestyle their individual perosnalities, socialization and training overpowers most anything that is in their genes IMO.

[technodoll]

the fact is, most people want certain characteristics in ANYTHING they acquire in life: whether a spouse, a car, clothes, a job, and yes that includes pets too. no you cannot choose your children but you can choose your mate to make children with. and you can certainly have the right to choose a dog (or cat) to complement your lifestyle. do i want a 160-lbs long-haired dog to guard my farm, or a smooth-haired tiny lapdog to comfort me in my arthritic years? do i want a high-energy, high-maintenance dog to hike with me for long hours every weekend, or do i want a quiet, low-maintenance dog to warm my couch and watch tv with me all day long?

the advantage of purebreds cannot be ignored. when you research a breed and the breeder, you can predict many things and maximise the chances of success in owning this dog - good breeders will often refuse a person "not suited for the breed" or ask a prospective client to wait for the next litter, as the current one does not contain a puppy with a temperament suitable for their family.

how many dogs are adopted from shelters and pounds and then returned, because the dog was not what they had expected it to be? breed-specific rescues have a higher rate of success then all-purpose shelters, as they evaluate each candidate against the breed standard and place that dog with adopters who fit the dog's profile, and not the other way around. they will often refuse to place a dog with a certain family as they know it will not work out - another advantage of knowing a purebred's characteristics, disposition, etc and working with the grain, and not in uncertain parameters.

the problem of unwanted pets and shelter overpopulation will never go away. it's a fact of life. BUT you cannot deny the freedoms of one group, to benefit the problems created by another group. it is called communism, and it is happening in China where families are not allowed to have more than two children, in an attempt to curb overpopulation. i certainly do not want to live in a communist state!

[Prin]

Stopping the ethical breeders will certainly not stop the bad breeders either. If anything, they'll produce more because they'll have the monopoly then.

[Mom_Of_Two_Dogs]

Definately check www.petfinder.org. I have seen Schnauzer/Poodle mixes listed there and many rescues will transport dogs if you live too far away from them.

[Melei'sMom]

I think you just made my point technodoll. All I was trying to say was that if someone, in this case glasgk, wants a mixed breed, then we shouldn't deny that. Just like with purebreds, there are good and bad breeders. When the responses she got where that it's not a breed and that it is wrong to breed for a mix. That is the opinion of most posters here and I just felt more info could have been given such as...to get an idea of what a mixed dog could be like, you have to study the breed info on both types of dog used and remember that any combination is possible etc.

Even I agree that mixed breeds should not be more expensive than purebreds, but some of us will never own a purebred for reasons I am not going to list here. Just suffice it to say that I am not going to change my mind about my reasons and don't expect you to change yours. I just think we could add a little info about mixed breeds as we should also have the freedom to choose them as well.

[mafiaprincess]

But the problem is with a purebred dog you did choose traits, looks, personality.
With a random designer mutt, You can't prove any of it. Like goldendoodle breeders claiming their dogs don't shed. No, a portion of their dogs won't shed.
There are a very few good breeders of mutts. They have been workign towards creating a true breed that would measure up to standards. Most notibly the cocker x poodle people and the lab x poodle people, but even they aren't there yet.
If you could find breeders that wanted to uphold some standards like even simple genetic testing, and not breeding every litter and non mature dogs, people would be less bristled on this topic, but for the most part, you won't find good breeders.. hence the kennel listed in this thread.

[Dogastrophe]

My two cents. Notwithstanding the whole BYB industry, I'm wondering if ppl would be getting so upset with breeding 'oodles' if they didn't have such an obvious cross breed name. What will the thought be if these dogs ever get recognized as a breed? The Russian Terrier which is now considered a purebred and has seen the show ring was developed in the 1950's by crossing a couple of different breeds (http://www.mustaterrieri.com/E/ehistoria.html). Who is to say that a goldendoodle will not be recognized as a purebred in the next 25 years or so.

[Writing4Fun]

Originally Posted by Melei'sMom

Just like with purebreds, there are good and bad breeders.

I beg to differ. Anyone who breeds mixed breed dogs is not, by definition, a good breeder. 99% of the time, they are plain ol' greedy. BYBs or millers who are breeding these "designer breeds" for the sole purpose of overcharging people based on a misconception, feeding on people's weaknesses and lack of knowledge. The other 1% are people who had a Schnoodle (or whatever) and decided they loved it (he's so cute, he's so smart, my friends wanted one, etc...) and so wanted to breed it - just the same way every other BYB gets started. Either way, you're going to wind up with dogs that are not health or temperment tested, do not have a great pedigree to begin with (since the breeder of the original pure-breed in the mix didn't care enough to have a spay/neuter contract, that rules them out as a good breeder), are just as unpredictable in terms of temperment and looks as any other mixed breed, and to top it all off are very much overpriced.

Dogastrophe, the way people bred dogs 50 years ago, and their reasons for doing so, don't apply to the "oodles". The original purpose in breeding these dogs may have been noble (although I'm still not sure why they couldn't just use a standard poodle to begin with). But with modern society and the issues it faces, TV & movies influencing everything from what people eat to what they drive to where they live to what they look like, and everyone wanting everything right NOW, things don't move the same way they did back then. Back then, one person might have thought to try something, and other people would have sat back and waited to see how it turned out. Now, with today's instant gratification society, one person came up with an idea, and a million others jump on the bandwagon, and it takes no time at all for the flood to happen.

[erykah1310]

I'm wondering if ppl would be getting so upset with breeding 'oodles' if they didn't have such an obvious cross breed name.

Its not just the "oodles" its the name tag applied to the dogs and television picking up on it and making it more desirable. A few months ago on Live with Regis and Kelly, they had a segment with "Hybrids" the brought out a few "oodles" , puggles and a few others. (Dont get me wrong these puppies were adorable) that was fuel for the fire IMO for BYB, having them advertised on such a popular television show. I just feel that perhaps shelters should take guesses at what the homeless population is mixed with and tack "designer" names on them too. What would the general public do then?
Kita- Purebred RottenBoxer
Puppy-Purebred Rottweppard
I dont know if that would get me upwards of a thousand dollars on their offspring?? ( dont worry both are "fixed")

[mafiaprincess]

Well, even petfinder jumped on the badwagon to make cockapoos a 'breed' to searc.. I mean it helps to point people to the mix they were looking for, but also somewhat fuels people to praise it loud that it is a breed, and all the false info on mutts..

[Dogastrophe]

Originally Posted by Writing4Fun

the way people bred dogs 50 years ago, and their reasons for doing so, don't apply to the "oodles".

This is quite the blanket statement. Can you back it up with actual research or is it merely opinion? .

Notwithstanding those people who are breeding to make a buck (which occurs with almost all dog types, purebred, so called designer, and plain old mutts) there are people breeding 'oodles' with the intent of creating a new purebred classification. There are 'oodle' breeders who have been doing so for 15+ years, it is just that with the popularity of these dogs, many more are jumping on the bad side of the bandwagon.

Neighbours of mine bought their first goldendoodle 14 years ago, they recently got another goldendoodle puppy from the same breeder. No one can say for certain that in the next 20 years one of the oodles will not be considered a purebred.

[LM1313]

I wouldn't support the establishment of a new breed unless there was a specific purpose for it other than "Aw, them is so cute." Almost every dog is cute. We have sufficiently cute dogs in every size. What job could a goldendoodle do that a standard poodle or golden retriever can't?

If people like certain kinds of mixes, that's fine, nothing wrong with that. Just keep searching for them on Petfinder, they'll turn up eventually.

~LM~

[gomez]

Originally Posted by Dogastrophe

My two cents. Notwithstanding the whole BYB industry, I'm wondering if ppl would be getting so upset with breeding 'oodles' if they didn't have such an obvious cross breed name. What will the thought be if these dogs ever get recognized as a breed? The Russian Terrier which is now considered a purebred and has seen the show ring was developed in the 1950's by crossing a couple of different breeds (http://www.mustaterrieri.com/E/ehistoria.html). Who is to say that a goldendoodle will not be recognized as a purebred in the next 25 years or so.

The same with our Norfolk Terrier - hey, one of them even won some awards, Best in Breed at Westminster and Best in Show at Crufts, how's that for a "new" breed?!?!?!

As Melei's Mom said up thread - all purebreds come from mutts - at some point some one had to start a breed, wether this person was a BYB or an established breeder, we don't know - breeders hundreds of years into the past were not necessarily more noble than breeders today, why would anyone think that?

Animals, like people, have to evolve and crossbreed, that is nature, natural selection. I can't imagine that in 100 years, if we had all the exact same breeds we have now, with no deviations, all dogs would be healthy or surviving...

[OntarioGreys]

Here is an example of a breeder who has worked to create a new breed of small sighthound with a long coat significantly smaller than the borzoi, which has been called the Silken Windhound, she planned and researched for 5 years before the first litter was born, she is already a profession breeder of champion show bred borzois, she used only champion stock stock from both breeds(borzoi and long haired whippets, and the goal was to set stardard, she enlisted help with international breeders to ensure they would have genetically diverse healthy breed line, so they would not have to rely on inbreeding only, the dogs that were born had medical records kept on them, genetic testing done, they wanted very much to seek AKC registration so intensive records were kept, the pups were not sold as pets intially the pups sold to other breeders or to those who did lure coursing competitiions but kept intact for the possiblity of future breeding as they proved themselves, as they wanted to prove these dogs were functional and have a records to prove it. they created a registry and pedigree data base, 13 years after the first litter the studbooks where closed to the borzoi and longhairsed ehippet, the breed now had a diverse enough breeding stock to ensure close inbreeding would not be necessary. http://www.silkenwindhounds.org/
This all started in 1982, longer than many of the poodle mixes have been around, but they were never dumped into the pet market like the poodle mixes, even today the international Silken Windhound society knows the whereabouts and who owns every silken windhound born, to ensure that there is a safety net in place even before there is actually a need for there has been several resources set up. there is a huge difference in the way the silken windhound was introduced as a carefully planned breed that was heavily documented Because of the differences the Silken windhound will likely become an official recognized breed with the AKC in a much shorter time frame than the poo mixes. Pricing for these dogs from the oringinal breeder who started the program, a retired broodmom for pet only is $300, a pup with show potential is $750, and quality show and breeding ranges from $1500 to $2500 , all are dna registered, and tested for drug sensiitivities so even the show quality dogs costs less. than a poo mix that was bred instead for the pet commodity market. So "if " I was going to consider buying a purposely bred mix, it would have to have the same kind of planning involved and record keeping as the windhound, not a dog just developed for consumer whim and mass produced and then later considered for registery after the fact

[Lucky Rescue]

Here is an example of a breeder who has worked to create a new breed of small sighthound with a long coat significantly smaller than the borzoi, which has been called the Silken Windhound, she planned and researched for 5 years before the first litter was born, she is already a profession breeder of champion show bred borzois, she used only champion stock stock from both breeds(borzoi and long haired whippets, and the goal was to set stardard, she enlisted help with international breeders to ensure they would have genetically diverse healthy breed line, so they would not have to rely on inbreeding only, the dogs that were born had medical records kept on them, genetic testing done, they wanted very much to seek AKC registration so intensive records were kept, the pups were not sold as pets intially the pups sold to other breeders or to those who did lure coursing competitiions but kept intact for the possiblity of future breeding as they proved themselves, as they wanted to prove these dogs were functional and have a records to prove it. they created a registry and pedigree data base, 13 years after the first litter the studbooks where closed to the borzoi and longhairsed ehippet, the breed now had a diverse enough breeding stock to ensure close inbreeding would not be necessary.

THIS is what it takes to create a new breed - great dedication, knowledge, and goals with the final result of a dog that breeds true every time.

NOT the same as someone buying any old Golden and Poodle, calling first generation offspring "Goldendoodles" and raking in big bucks from guillible people for mutt puppies.

[gomez]

How do you know that some Goldendoodle breeders is not doing this type of thing?? Have you info on EVERY mixed breeder around the world?

New breeds will and SHOULD crop up eventually....

[erykah1310]

How do you know that some Goldendoodle breeders is not doing this type of thing?? Have you info on EVERY mixed breeder around the world?

Good point i must say but every single ad i have seen thus far for Goldendoodles, Cockapoo's and so on, has been selling first generation pups with fancy names for rediculous amounts of money! (Im sorry but $1500 for a first generation Goldendoodle?? Think about it!) If there is an attempt to make larger non shedding breeds of dogs ( for example, I love Rotties but just say i am allergic, It would be wonderful to have a dog that resembles a Rott but hypo-allergenic) However IMO the whole "oodle" hype isnt really going anywhere in creating a new breed!

If there was any breeders who actually were trying to "create" this kind of breed, they wouldnt be just pumping out a lot of First generation dogs, there is no work being done to perfect the dogs, just to make a buck (as i have seen)

[Writing4Fun]

Originally Posted by gomez

How do you know that some Goldendoodle breeders is not doing this type of thing?? Have you info on EVERY mixed breeder around the world?

There may very well be someone like this in some corner of the world, but they are not the ones advertising in the local paper or on Craigslist, nor are they selling their puppies to pet stores. They are not easy to find, whereas the dishonest ones are plentiful and very in-your-face.

they wanted very much to seek AKC registration so intensive records were kept, the pups were not sold as pets intially the pups sold to other breeders or to those who did lure coursing competitiions

This is a very important point. For 99.9% of the 'doodle' breeders out there, their main purpose is to sell as many pups as possible. And that's the major difference between them and someone like this breeder who is trying to do something good out of love for their 'project'.

I have no problem with developing new breeds. I have a huge problem with scam artists doing things all the wrong way, without any regard for the health of their puppies or for what's best for the potential owners, because it's the easiest way to turn a huge profit at the expense of the uneducated or those who want instant gratification.

[gomez]

Point taken about the ads, but most reputable breeders don't adverstise, do they?? I agree a good breeder is not easy to find, but that doesn't apply to just Goldendoodles or any other "oodle" -

Which is why I think that instead of telling posters that an "oodle" is a horrible thing to want, to make them feel stupid, small and horrible for asking about breeders, maybe an explanation of this sort would be helpful...

And why isn't the "oodle" thing the way to create a new breed? It's just as good as any other - you have to mix to get new blood...

Are you sure your figure of 99.9% is correct, it seems awfully high...is there a study somewhere?

[technodoll]

And why isn't the "oodle" thing the way to create a new breed? It's just as good as any other - you have to mix to get new blood...

sure, if you keep breeding the offspring in a consistent manner to obtain generations that breed "true to type" down the road... what is happening now is only 1st generation mutts (from two purebreds), nice way to make a quick buck without making a commitment...

[gomez]

Originally Posted by technodoll

sure, if you keep breeding the offspring in a consistent manner to obtain generations that breed "true to type" down the road... what is happening now is only 1st generation mutts (from two purebreds), nice way to make a quick buck without making a commitment...

Not necessarily ALL breeders of "oodles" are doing this though...

[Dogastrophe]

Originally Posted by erykah1310

If there was any breeders who actually were trying to "create" this kind of breed, they wouldnt be just pumping out a lot of First generation dogs, there is no work being done to perfect the dogs, just to make a buck (as i have seen)

Breeding of the labradoodle began in Australia in 1989 with the intent of producing a hypo-allergetic guide dog. Work on perfecting this type is still on going. Just because you are seeing ads from byb's or otherwise for these dogs does not mean that that is all that is taking place. By your logic, I could make the arguement that there is no work being done to better, say, the Yorkshire Terrier breed, because all I ever see is people and pet stores advertising yorkies for sale for a great deal of money. This, of course, would be very flawed thinking.

[happycats]

I don;t know why they would breed labradoodles as hypo-allergenic guide dogs, it doesn't make sense, because they already use Standard poodles as guide dogs for people with alergies

[satchelp]

Originally Posted by Dogastrophe

Breeding of the labradoodle began in Australia in 1989 with the intent of producing a hypo-allergetic guide dog. Work on perfecting this type is still on going. Just because you are seeing ads from byb's or otherwise for these dogs does not mean that that is all that is taking place. By your logic, I could make the arguement that there is no work being done to better, say, the Yorkshire Terrier breed, because all I ever see is people and pet stores advertising yorkies for sale for a great deal of money. This, of course, would be very flawed thinking.

Very true; however, the people that are breeding Labradoodles in Australia (there are 2 main breeders working on the development of the breed .. one of them is Tegan Park) are very careful to differentiate themselves from others that breed and sell Labradoodles to make a fast buck. They are trying to rename their version of Labradoodles to 'Australian Labradoodles' so that they are not seen as the same as the Labradoodles that are being bred all over the place. The dogs from those breeders not working with the Australian stock under this developmental breeding program, supervised by the breed founders are never going to be considered a 'real' breed by any of the reputable breed registries.

[Writing4Fun]

Originally Posted by happycats

I don;t know why they would breed labradoodles as hypo-allergenic guide dogs, it doesn't make sense, because they already use Standard poodles as guide dogs for people with alergies

There's the sixty four million dollar question that I've been asking ever since I first heard of the 'doodle' breeds.

[mafiaprincess]

Ditto to what writing4fun said. I mentioned that on another forum and got my bum chewed off being told I was a liar. I know a lady with a standard poodle as a guide dog who is blind and allergic to dogs..
When asked about it, she praises how well the dog does, and that they have been being used for such a long time as guide dogs.. but a lot of peopel seem to think only labs and goldens thrive as guide dogs..

[OntarioGreys]

Breeding of the labradoodle began in Australia in 1989 with the intent of producing a hypo-allergetic guide dog.

I went to the Tegan Park website to see what the breeding program was like to see whether genetic test was being done or pedigree tracking

The Australian Labradoodle is a fascinating and unique dog which has been bred in this country since around the late 1970`s. In those early years, they were simply known as a Poodle Lab cross. In 1988 Wally Conran, who was at the time the training manager at the famous Royal Guide Dog association, carried out the first purpose bred mating of a Standard Poodle and Labrador......The program was ultimately abandoned but not without an absolutely incredible record of 31 puppies bred and raised and a whopping 29 passed to become guide dogs

Wally purposably inbred the dogs to try to increase to odds of getting non allergy type pup to use as guide dogs

Wally did the first purpose breeding but ended likley due to complications resulting from doing close inbreeding but he was the first to coin them as Labradoodle inorder to promote them as guide dog because though their was a waiting list for guide dogs nobody wanted mixes at the time

Tegan Park did not start with purebred dogs and record keeping but used mixes to get their start, they basically bred mixed mutts with her goal was

"I wonder if it IS possible to breed a non shedding non smelly dog"???......It was not long at all before I learnt two things. Firstly, working with only two breeds was too limiting and impossible to achieve the results .........I enjoyed some fast progress with the purchase of several Lab Poodle crosses, back crosses, Labradoodle to Labradoodle crosses and a couple of Labradoodles that had been crossed with another breed,

This is no where near the same as the breeding program for the creation of the windhound.