Early Stage Kidney Failure in Cat
 

My 16 year old :cat: Duffy has just been diagnoised with early stage Kidney Failure. Two years ago she had Hyperthyroidism which was [U]cured[/U] by Radioactive Iodine Therapy, now this :sad:. I'm looking for as much information as I can get so I would like to know if anyone has or had a cat with Kidney Failure, & if you can me some suggestions/tips.

She is currently on Evo canned with a little bit of Orijen & Evo dry mixed in, she has the dry available for snacking but isn't eating very much of it. I know the Evo will have to be switched because the phosphorus is too high, so any suggestions for a holistic low phosphorus food? The vet has suggested the prescription low protein/low phosph but I really want to stick with the natural food for as long as possible, which she is okay with as long as I understand she may need to be switched as some point.

She is drinking water both added into her canned food & on it's own.

Any suggestions for diet/food supplements?

Her Blood Urea Nitrogen & Creatinine levels are High, whereas her Platelets & Lymphocytes are Low and there is a small amount of protein in her urine sample.
Right now her Phosphorus count is right in the middle of normal & the Total Protein in her blood is also in normal range.

Anything I should be on the look out for, aside from vomiting, lots of peeing, lots of drinking?

Any suggestions/tips to keep her Kidney health as good as possible?

Thanks

(Added by growler - This is a long thread and for those that may be rushed, here is a [URL="http://www.pets.ca/forum/showthread.php?p=748618#post748618"]summary post[/URL])

I am really sorry to hear about Duffy and hugs to both of you. :grouphug: :grouphug:

I have never had to deal with kidney failure so have no advice to give. Perhaps you will have to home cook for her to avoid the vet foods. Have you read this website:

[url]http://www.felinecrf.com/managd.htm[/url]

I hadn't seen that one thanks Rainbow :) I've saved it to read thoughly


This is one I have been reading, which has several articles written by vets, some with information regarding protein levels in food:
[url]http://www.felineoutreach.org/links.html[/url]

Another one:

[url]http://www.littlebigcat.com/index.php?action=library&act=show&item=003[/url]

The website you found has some good info there. :thumbs up

Post #4 on this forum has some links to check out as well.

[url]http://www.thecatsite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=119727[/url]

Thanks again Rainbow :thumbs up :grouphug:

There's lots of knowledgable cat people on the forum here so I'm sure you will get lots of good advice and information tomorrow. :grouphug: :fingerscr

Oops, sorry Growler, most of my replies on this were in the TJT :o.

Sorry to hear about Duffy having CRF. Luckily, many cats can live years with renal issues with some good dietary and medical management. For sure the EVO is too high in phosphorous, so you might want to look at either Wellness canned or Nature's Variety. You could also ask your vet for phosphorus binders. At some point, you may want to consider giving subQ fluids, which can make a world of difference. There's a great site here on that process: [url]http://www.weirdstuffwemake.com/weird/stuff/pets/cats/sophia/catjuice.html[/url]

And here's another website on CRF to check out: [url]http://www.felinecrf.org/[/url]

Growler,so sorry about Duffy,we often go in to panicmode,when our animals are sick,but it seems you have a clear head and doing your research.The Internet and this Form is a great thing,wish I'd had all the available info 25yrs ago,with my Tigger.
I am sure you'll get a handle on this and Duffy will be fine..

:grouphug:My kitties are all youngins so I haven't come across kidney probs yet....I will just keep you both in my prayers! :pray:

Growler, I am so sorry to hear about Duffy. Your words to me during Shade's illness and her death meant more to me than I can express. I wish I had some advice to give you about diets, but I can tell you that someone to look out for as well as increased DILUTED urination (caused by the kidneys inability to concentrate urine) is reduced urination which can indicate more severe renal failure and cause the buildup of nitrates in her body because of her kidneys inability to produce and excrete urine. I am somewhat familiar with kidney failure in people, but less so in animals.

I also looked at some of the websites that Rainbow posted, but found this tid bit... [url]http://www.tarazet.com/mt/archives/002643.html[/url] it says that this drug may help to improve appetite which can be a big issue for renal failure.

Keep her eating and drinking as much as possible, if she is diuresing (massive urination) she can become dehydrated and develop electrolyte imbalances and if she is not getting enough calories she will start to breakdown muscle which is protein.

Tell you vet that you are interested in information and ask them for resources including research studies. I am happy to help you understand the scientific stuff if you don't have a medical background. Please let me knwo if there is anything I can do to help you. All the best for you and Duffy :cat: :goodvibes::goodvibes::grouphug:

Thank you everyone for the good wishes :) & for all the links posted :thumbs up, some I have seen some I have not but will definately be checking each & every one

Yes Sugarcatmom I will be switching from the Evo to either the Wellness or the Nature's Variety, finding which one she likes & is lowest in phos is my next task, & I know I have to stay away from fish varieties as much as possible.

Good thing I live 2 blocks from a fabulous pet supply store cuz I just bought a case of Evo last week, as yet unopened, so no problem returning it :rolleyes:

I have found great info on comparing foods using "dry matter amounts" instead of "as fed amounts" because there is so much difference in moisture content, so this is a gives a great comparison for all nutrients in different foods.

Scroll down to "Converting dry matter basis"

[url]http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?cls=1&cat=1399&articleid=667#[/url]

Shredy thank you for your offer of help [I may take you up on that] & your kind words :)

Chico - there has been info re HyperThyroidism links with kidney failure, so I will PM you the link to be sure you see it ;)

When Shayker was diagnosed with kidney failure the first thing I did was change her water to pedilte. It kept her hydrated and her electrolytes up. I am so sorry your furkid if facing this hard journey. :sorry:

Thanks Shaykeija, I may look into that - right now she's drinking okay & it has been suggested to switch to a water fountain to stimulate drinking, so I'm thinking on that too. :)

Today I have picked up:
Wellnes: a can of Chicken/ a can of Turkey/ a can of Beef & Chicken
I have emailed them in regards to Nutrient Anaylsis to get the actual phos content since I can't find it on their website :frustrated:.

Nature's Variety Instinct: a can of Rabbit/ 2 cans of Chicken
Nature's Variety Prairie (old formula): 6 cans of Beef/ 2 cans of Chicken & Turkey
I have also emailed them asking why the old formula Prairie is discontinued & mentioned Duffy's CRF and that the Beef formula is the lowest I have found [B]0.9% phos dry matter!!!![/B], the vet px diet is 1%. And also to get the Nutrient Anaylsis & actual phos content of the NEW Prairie varieties which they haven't listed ingredients/anaylsis yet.

With both emails I mentioned the Duffy's CRF so hopefully I will get good responses soon :fingerscr

Forgot to add she had the NV Beef for dinner & she likes it :highfive: !!!!

Good for you Duffy!!:highfive:

I am at a loss for advice so Molly and are sending all the :goodvibes: and :grouphug: we can muster for Duffy doing great for a good long time:cat:

Thanks Otter & Molly :grouphug:

[QUOTE=growler;484284]Today I have picked up:
Wellnes: a can of Chicken/ a can of Turkey/ a can of Beef & Chicken
I have emailed them in regards to Nutrient Anaylsis to get the actual phos content since I can't find it on their website :frustrated:.

Nature's Variety Instinct: a can of Rabbit/ 2 cans of Chicken
Nature's Variety Prairie (old formula): 6 cans of Beef/ 2 cans of Chicken & Turkey
I have also emailed them asking why the old formula Prairie is discontinued & mentioned Duffy's CRF and that the Beef formula is the lowest I have found [B]0.9% phos dry matter!!!![/B], the vet px diet is 1%. And also to get the Nutrient Anaylsis & actual phos content of the NEW Prairie varieties which they haven't listed ingredients/anaylsis yet.

With both emails I mentioned the Duffy's CRF so hopefully I will get good responses soon :fingerscr[/QUOTE]

Oh sorry, I should have also given you these links listing the phosphorus amounts of many canned foods. This one shows it as mg per 100 cal: [url]http://www.geocities.com/jmpeerson/canfood.html[/url]

And here is another one with the listing as a % of dry matter: [url]http://webpages.charter.net/katkarma/canfood.htm[/url] But it's probably a good thing that you emailed them anyway to get the most up-to-date info (and not all flavours/brands are listed either). Some of the Wysong varieties also have excellent phosphorus levels, but they can be harder to find, and if you feed the All Meat (Au Jus) ones, a supplement needs to be added to make them complete (or just feed intermittently).

You might know this better than me, but I believe the goal is feed foods with 1% or less of phosphorus (as percent of dry matter), or around 200mg/100cal and under. Every single meal doesn't necessarily have to follow that rule, so if you have a cat that needs variety you can alternate some of the lower ones with higher ones to get an overall balance.

[QUOTE=growler;484291]Forgot to add she had the NV Beef for dinner & she likes it :highfive: !!!![/QUOTE]

I have been in the market for months for a higher quality canned food for my female cat who is very picky because I am now much better educated thanks to the experience of the board members here. She loves Fancy Feast, the fish varieties, but I have been able to get her to eat NV Instinct Chicken canned and sort of the Venison depending on her mood. It was the most successful brand I have found so far. She will also munch on the NV Instinct dry.

I'd be very interested to hear the responses to your emails requesting more info on the food analysis as my cat has permanent kidney damage and although her blood work results are normal except for calcium, chances are she will develop CRF in the coming years.

[QUOTE=sugarcatmom;484459]Oh sorry, I should have also given you these links listing the phosphorus amounts of many canned foods. This one shows it as mg per 100 cal: [url]http://www.geocities.com/jmpeerson/canfood.html[/url]

And here is another one with the listing as a % of dry matter: [url]http://webpages.charter.net/katkarma/canfood.htm[/url] But it's probably a good thing that you emailed them anyway to get the most up-to-date info (and not all flavours/brands are listed either). Some of the Wysong varieties also have excellent phosphorus levels, but they can be harder to find, and if you feed the All Meat (Au Jus) ones, a supplement needs to be added to make them complete (or just feed intermittently).

You might know this better than me, but I believe the goal is feed foods with 1% or less of phosphorus (as percent of dry matter), or around 200mg/100cal and under. Every single meal doesn't necessarily have to follow that rule, so if you have a cat that needs variety you can alternate some of the lower ones with higher ones to get an overall balance.[/QUOTE]


Thank you Sugarcatmom :grouphug:, I had already seen & read those ones but always good to post for others reading too. :thumbs up

I am trying to stay grain free, low phos, lowish-more middleish range protein (I do agree they still need protein esp since it will encourage cats to eat) & holistic

Yes the goal is 1% or less phos as dry matter, but I wasn't sure about every meal so thanks for that :highfive: good to know I can go abit higher on occasion cuz it is hard to find ones that come in @ or under 1%, many are between 1.06-1.22%

I have so far received an email from Wellness they were wonderful at providing me with [I]complete[/I] analysis for several foods, however some were dry foods & many of the canned had fish in them & to my understanding with CRF I am supposed to try to avoid fish as much as possible, or only as a treat once in a while.

I have emailed Wellness again thanking them & asking for specific (stating the product code) variety info - for the Chicken/Turkey/Beef & Chicken, I mentioned the need to avoid fish hopefully I will get another super quick response. :fingerscr

I am still waiting for a response from Nature's Variety :fingerscr

Currently Duffy is on canned only (she does have some Evo & Orijen left for snacking but she's not been eating the dry for a while now) & there is no way to go back to dry - she wouldn't eat it, which is good Wet is Best for CRF

[QUOTE=Love4himies;484486]I'd be very interested to hear the responses to your emails requesting more info on the food analysis as my cat has permanent kidney damage and although her blood work results are normal except for calcium, chances are she will develop CRF in the coming years.[/QUOTE] :goodvibes: :grouphug:

I'll let you know when I get the desired (same detailed info) reponse from the 2nd email :thumbs up

Thanks, Growler.

[B]sugarcatmom[/B] a question I forgot to ask:

the as fed as dry matter values are based on per can so for example when Duffy was on EVO she was eating [B]1/2 can per day[/B] (she honestly wasn't hungry enoungh to have any more) [B]am I correct in assuming that the values would be half?[/B]

for example EVO per can:
moisture 74.03% = dry matter 25.97%
protein 13.23 % / 25.97 (dry matter) = 50% protein dry matter
phosphorus .36% / 25.97 (dry matter) = 1.38% phos dry matter


so if she only eats 1/2 can per day that would be:
25% protein dry matter & 0.69% phosphorus dry matter per day

[B]Is that right??[/B] thanks :)

[QUOTE=growler;484824][B]sugarcatmom[/B] a question I forgot to ask:

the as fed as dry matter values are based on per can so for example when Duffy was on EVO she was eating [B]1/2 can per day[/B] (she honestly wasn't hungry enoungh to have any more) [B]am I correct in assuming that the values would be half?[/B][/QUOTE]

Unfortunately, no, it doesn't quite work that way. The % just means that, no matter what the total weight of the food is, a consistent [b]portion[/b] is going to be made up of, lets say protein. So, whether you feed 250g of food or 500g of food, 40% of that is going to be protein, on a dry matter basis. Yes, the 250g meal will have half of the total protein of the 500g meal, but it will still be 40% in both cases. Does that make any sense?

Also, here is an excerpt from the [url=http://www.geocities.com/jmpeerson/canfood.html]Janet & Binky[/url] food charts regarding phosphorus amounts and comparing the different formats:

[quote][B]Q. My cat needs to eat low-phosphorus foods -- how do the numbers on your table relate to the dry weight value of phosphorus?[/B]

A. The relationship between "mg phosphorus per 100 calories" and "% phosphorus by dry weight" is not exact, as it depends on the caloric content of the food. However, as a general rule, 1% dry weight is approximately equal to 240 mg per 100 calories, see [url=http://www.geocities.com/jmpeerson/phosph.jpg]chart[/url].[/quote]

Sure getting lots of good information here. I think this should be made a sticky. :thumbs up

[QUOTE=Love4himies;484486]She loves Fancy Feast, the fish varieties, but I have been able to get her to eat NV Instinct Chicken canned and sort of the Venison depending on her mood. It was the most successful brand I have found so far. She will also munch on the NV Instinct dry.

I'd be very interested to hear the responses to your emails requesting more info on the food analysis as my cat has permanent kidney damage and although her blood work results are normal except for calcium, chances are she will develop CRF in the coming years.[/QUOTE]


The response I got from NV was a little less than impressive after the fabulous reponses from Consumer Affairs @ Wellness.

I emailed basically the same question to both, asking for complete NA in regards to CRF feeding, asking specifically for absolute percentages not just min-max esp for phos. I also asked NV for the NA for the new line of Prairie since the old line is discontinued & the beef in the old formula is the lowest in phos so far (in terms of holistic non prescription can food). Their response was:

[COLOR="DarkSlateBlue"]Thank you for your recent email inquiry to Nature’s Variety regarding our can diets and their nutritional analysis.

As you noticed, there was time recently where we were transitioning some of our can diets. We now are offering Instinct cans and will soon be again offering Prairie cans along with a new Homestyle from the Prairie cans.

The best place to find all of our nutritional information is on the website where we have all of the analysis listed for the diets that you are interested in.

This link is for the currently available Instinct cans for your review.
[url]http://www.naturesvariety.com/content.lasso?r=1204959&page=1494&-session=naturesvariety:D8AA0BFA1876f1D593uOw37A5A1C[/url]

What you will find with our diets is that our minimums and maximums listed are very near the averages in those diets so we are comfortable with you using those numbers as part of your search.

We hope that this information has been helpful and thank you again for your interest in Nature’s Variety.

Sincerely,

Customer Service
Nature’s Variety [/COLOR]

This information is all currently available to everyone on the NV website, and they did not answer why they were discontinuing the Old Prairie Formula or what the NA is for the New Prairie Formula is or if it will be similar. :frustrated:

Wellness however sent me full NA for all varieties of canned & some dry foods including the AAFCO (Association of American Feed Control Officials) Nutrient Profile Substance Claim comparison to their food (labeled CLASSIFIED), they only have the minimum amount of info the guarenteed analysis available on their website - this is the same info on the cans.

In keeping with my reassurance to Wellness that this is for my own research not for public study (or secret selling to competitors) I will only post a little of what they sent me.

In regards to the 3 varieties I purchased it looks like this:

[B]CHICKEN[/B]
......................As fed Basis,............Dry Matter............g/Per 1000
............................%.....................Basis, %...............KCAL ME
M.E. KCAL/KG.....1411.10...................5253.54....................-

MOISTURE..........73.14........................-...........................-
PROTEIN.............12.04....................44.83......................85.32
FAT...................10.96.....................40.80.....................77.67
CARBOHYDRATES...1.74.....................6.48......................12.33
FIBER..................0.27.....................1.01........................1.91
ASH....................1.85......................6.89.....................13.11
CALCIUM..............0.36.....................1.34.......................2.55
PHOSPHORUS........0.31.....................1.15.......................2.20
POTASSIUM..........0.35.....................1.30.......................2.48
SODIUM...............0.09.....................0.34.......................0.64


[B]CHICKEN & BEEF[/B]

........................As fed Basis,..........Dry Matter...........g/Per 1000
.............................%....................Basis, %...............KCAL ME
M.E. KCAL/KG.....1239.84.................5159.55....................-

MOISTURE..........75.97.........................-.....................-
PROTEIN.............11.11...................46.23...................89.61
FAT....................9.43....................39.24...................76.06
CARBOHYDRATES..1.42......................5.91...................11.45
FIBER..................0.26.....................1.08.....................2.10
ASH....................1.81.....................7.53....................14.60
CALCIUM..............0.31....................1.29.....................2.50
PHOSPHORUS........0.28....................1.17.....................2.26
POTASSIUM..........0.31....................1.29.....................2.50
SODIUM...............0.09....................0.37.....................0.73


[B]TURKEY[/B]
........................As fed Basis,...........Dry Matter............g/Per 1000
.............................%....................Basis, %................KCAL ME
M.E. KCAL/KG.......1397.62..................5205.29......................-

MOISTURE............73.15.......................-..............................-
PROTEIN...............12.44...................46.33.......................89.01
FAT.....................10.63...................39.59.......................76.06
CARBOHYDRATES....1.67.....................6.22.........................11.95
FIBER...................0.27.....................1.01..........................1.93
ASH.....................1.84.....................6.85.........................13.17
CALCIUM..............0.33.....................1.22..........................2.34
PHOSPHORUS........0.28.....................1.05..........................2.01
POTASSIUM..........0.32.....................1.18..........................2.27
SODIUM................0.08.....................0.30.........................0.58

Thank you, growler. Looks like Turkey in the Wellness brand would be the best for my cat. It is so difficult to get her to change her food. She is so skinny to begin with that not eating regularly worries me so. She has always been such a picky eater.

[B]L4H[/B] Duffy quite likes the Wellness Turkey :thumbs up so your girl might too :fingerscr Try adding extra water slightly warm to make a gravy works great :)

I bought an automatic water fountain today (super quite :thumbs up can't hear it unless you stick your head right next to the bowl) cuz I haven't noticed her drinking, so far she won't use it :frustrated:, I still have the regular porcelain double dish & a single one of water out for her.

When she was on EVO canned she would drink water after every meal and I was adding 2 tsp of water to her food. Now with trying the NV & Wellness I'm adding 4 tsp water cuz she doesn't seem to be drinking.

In the last 2 years everytime I had to take Duffy in for re testing because of the Hyperthyroidism, the vet techs have told me "she is slightly dehydrated" even when I knew via observation she was drinking water everytime she ate.

I'm going to open the last can I have of Evo tomorrow for her breakfast & see if she drinks water after - maybe if she will only drink water with the Evo I may have to go back to it & get some phos binders, or talk to her vet re sub-q fluids. Hopefully she will take to the fountain :fingerscr

I have noticed some hind end weakness esp when she turns corners. She will still play with & chase the new laser toy & jumps on the bed & also the table to get onto the window sill. This could be dehydration, or high phos - though her count was in the middle of normal range, could be other things as well - will be keeping an eye on it for sure

Only vomited (food) once this week (none prior except for a def hairball) after mixing Evo & NV Beef with a couple of krunchies. hmm maybe the krunchies? not the mixing of food - have done that since & no vomiting. She doesn't seem to be nausious, no retching/coughing, litterbox is good - little pees though - to be expected :shrug:

The krunchies, which she isn't touching anyways, I took today down to the SPCA. I have also noticed with the Evo (high protein) she was eating 1/2 a can per day & wasn't hungry after her two meals. With the lower protein NV & Wellness she is eating between 3/4 of a can & a full can per day & is going back several times to the dish.

It sounds like you are doing ok with Duffy:thumbs up
My Rockys weightloss is mostly noticed on his backend,some weakness,vet says he's arthritic but I believe it's because of his HTism.
With my 3,it's really nervy at feedingtime,Vinnie slurps all of his food,I have to sit with Rocky until he finishes the teaspoon of food with his pill,usually no problem,after he finishes he gets the rest.
Chico might just sniff the food and walk away,only to return later to eat,it's a constant moving dishes around so Vinnie does not eat it all,pain in the butt,but they are worth it:cat:

[B]L4H[/B] here's some of the NV info for the [B]Instinct[/B] from their website
I included the dry matter conversion for calcium for you since Puddles needs lower level - though I'm not sure what the level she needs is but you can check lower end levels.

I didn't include the Vension variety cuz the phos level is :crazy: high
The levels below are per can [B]not[/B] converted into dry matter (except for the conversions I did :))
Nature’s Variety Instinct Canned [B]Chicken[/B] Formula
Guaranteed Analysis
Crude Protein (min) 9.0%
Crude Fat (min) 7.0%
Crude Fiber (max) 3.0%
Moisture (max) 75.0%

Calories
209 per 5.5 oz can

Minerals
Calcium: 0.384%
Phosphorus: 0.307%
Magnesium: 0.029%
Sodium: 0.114%
Potassium: 0.273%
Chloride: 0.181%
Ash: 2.206%

So the dry matter phos level is: 1.228%
Dry matter calcium level: 1.536%

Nature’s Variety Instinct Canned [B]Beef[/B] Formula
Guaranteed Analysis
Crude Protein (min) 9.0%
Crude Fat (min) 7.0%
Crude Fiber (max) 3.0%
Moisture (max) 75.0%

Calories
220 per 5.5 oz can

Minerals
Calcium: 0.399%
Phosphorus: 0.341%
Magnesium: 0.023%
Sodium: 0.145%
Potassium: 0.252%
Chloride: 0.211%
Ash: 2.296%

Dry matter phos level: 1.364%
Dry matter calcium level: 1.596%

Nature’s Variety Instinct Canned [B]Rabbit[/B] Formula
Guaranteed Analysis
Crude Protein (min) 9.0%
Crude Fat (min) 7.0%
Crude Fiber (max) 3.0%
Moisture (max) 75.0%

Calories
222 per 5.5 oz can

Minerals
Calcium: 0.444%
Phosphorus: 0.327%
Magnesium: 0.022%
Sodium: 0.121%
Potassium: 0.327%
Chloride: 0.207%
Ash: 2.111%

Dry matter phos level: 1.308%
Dry matter calcium level: 1.776%

So it looks like so far she hasn't been drinking on her own outside of the water added to her food & the little bit I have been syringing down her throat - let me tell you she is NOT impressed with that :eek:

I will have to do a water measurement either sun/mon when I'm off work to accurately compare levels in the 3 dishes.

[B]Chico[/B] As for her hind end weakness, I was also thinking arthritis, but since it can be an indirect side effect (through a second additional condition) of CRF I'm not ruling out anything. The weird thing is it just started on the 30Sept which is when I switched her off Evo to lower protein/lower phos & that is when she started to not drink. But when she sits it [I]really[/I] looks alot like Callys' arthritis sit - very controlled careful placement of the legs/hips underneath them in a way to ensure they won't fall/lean over - several years ago I bought a hand-held electric massager for Cally to help alleviate his arthritis, so I have started using that on Duffy - good thing she is used to it from Cally - I would massage her too abit then & she likes it. Purrs away during her massage but still lets me know when she's had enough. :D

Rocky(11yrs old) has no trouble sitting,walking,running,but he went from 16lb's to 12lb's in a very short time,in losing so much weight,he also lost musclemass.
I don't think he's arthritic,but I am no vet...I just don't want to give him painpills if it seems he does not need it.
I hope your little girl will do ok,it's a worry when they don't drink,luckily all of mine drink quiet a bit,I change the water about 15 times a day:yell:
I had a waterfountain once,but they were afraid of it:cat:

[QUOTE=growler;486432]So it looks like so far she hasn't been drinking on her own outside of the water added to her food & the little bit I have been syringing down her throat - let me tell you she is NOT impressed with that :eek:[/QUOTE]

Cats eating only canned often don't need to drink any extra water, especially if you're adding water to the food. I would skip the syringing part (less stress is always a good thing!) and maybe just put another tbsp or 2 in her meals. Even my diabetic doesn't drink out of his water dish anymore (and I was measuring the amounts twice a day for months just to be sure). I was thinking that maybe Duffy was drinking more with the EVO because it possibly has a higher sodium content? or lower moisture content? (haven't compared values so I could be wrong - just a guess).

As for the arthritis issue, I did read somewhere that 90% of cats over the age of 12 have radiographic signs of arthritis. Most commonly in the elbow, followed by the hips. It wouldn't hurt to ask your vet about [url=http://www.nutramaxlabs.com/products/animal/cosequin/cosequin_jointHealth.asp#null]Cosequin[/url], or even the new [url=http://www.nutramaxlabs.com/products/animal/dasuquin/dasuquin_cats.asp]Dasuquin[/url]. My Aztec started showing signs of a persistent limp in one of his front legs last year and after about 6-8 weeks of Cosequin, he is now limp-free. It's not a pain-killer but more of a joint-rebuilder and is easily mixed with food.

[B]Sugarcatmom[/B] - thanks for the links I will check them out. :thumbs up
She's not limping just leaning/wobbly abit & sitting *carefully* & laying down more when she used to be sitting. The thing is I know the weakness could be related to not having enough water re CRF, I don't want to assume it is arthritis & ignore the other possiblilities which is why I'm probably too cautious with the water - though (arthritis) that's what it looks like



The EVO NA looks like this:
......................As fed Basis,............Dry Matter
............................%..................... Basis, %
MOISTURE..........74.03........................-......
PROTEIN.............13.23....................50.94
FAT...................9.23..................... 35.54
CARBOHYDRATES...1.01.....................3.88
FIBER..................0.19.....................0. 73
ASH....................2.30......................8.85
CALCIUM..............0.45.....................1.73
PHOSPHORUS........0.36.....................1.38
POTASSIUM..........0.26.....................1.00
SODIUM...............0.16.....................0.61


I see now the sodium is higher than others, so that maybe it.
With EVO I was adding 2 tsp, now with NV & Wellness I'm adding 4 tsp so it's quite gravyish.
What concerns me is the techs always mentioned she was a bit dehydrated {gums are def not tacky feeling} & of course I'd like to stall sub-q as long as possible.
According to some info the techs gave me from RC
[quote] The recommended water consumption of the cat is 55 - 70 ml/kg-body weight/per day or 1ml per kcal of metabolizable energy consumed[/quote]
This is where I get :confused:
1 tsp=5ml 11 tsp = 55 ml low end of scale 11 tsp * 5.5kg (Duffy's weight) =60.5 tsp water per day :eek: [img]http://bestsmileys.com/fainting/1.gif[/img]
this would be assuming only straight h2o drinking - not including amount in canned food

If you take the ME kcal of Wellness Turkey:M.E. KCAL/KG = 1397.62 % per can as fed 165g can = 230 kcal/can * 1ml = 230 ml = 46 tsp = 1 cup h2o/perday :eek: [img]http://bestsmileys.com/fainting/1.gif[/img]


I'll be measuring water over the next 2 days to see if she has actually had any


Thank you everyone so much for all the help & suggestions posted so far :highfive:

I found this website with tips for increasing water consumption: [url]http://cl-ruth.s-ivil.tripod.com/id8.html[/url]

One of my favorites is to use the "juice" from a can of unsalted salmon or tuna, diluted about half and half with plain water. You can keep topping up the can with more water and store it in the fridge for 2 or 3 days to get the most out of it.

Also 'Baby Food Soup' works well. Plain chicken (no onions) mixed with plenty of warmish water is a big treat for my kitty.

I understand not wanting to do subQ fluids just yet, but if it ever does become necessary, it's not so bad if you follow a few tricks (like warming the fluids first, using a higher gauge needle, giving lots of treats, etc). In fact, I'd way rather give my cat subQs than anything orally! Many cats learn to associate the procedure with feeling better and become quite compliant about the whole thing. I have lots of links on subQ stuff if you ever need them. :D

[B]Sugarcatmom[/B] Thanks :grouphug: you have been an amazing :angel2: of resource & help for me & Duffy :pawprint:

SCM,that goes double for me,you are amazing:thumbs up
:pray:that Duffy will be fine:pray: